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by MineLegotia and Equestria » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:16 pm
Recent News: Imperial Regent strengthens Anti-Corruption Offices after Scandal | Minister of FA found after Ministry Blackout; Cults Blamed | 'Caplanbourgh surrender not in sight' says Minister of Defense | Parliament to pass 3843/383/23/04/2389
by Alternamerica » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:19 pm
Kyundao wrote:Alternamerica wrote:The Cato Institute, a Right-Libertarian biased source, is just as reliable as Jacobin magazine or a Trotskysit newspaper
California has all kinds of taxes and regulations that are causing small business owners and other residents to leave in droves. I'm inclined to believe the Cato Institute here even though I'm a right-authoritarian.
by Kowani » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:24 pm
Kyundao wrote:Alternamerica wrote:The Cato Institute, a Right-Libertarian biased source, is just as reliable as Jacobin magazine or a Trotskysit newspaper
California has all kinds of taxes and regulations that are causing small business owners and other residents to leave in droves. I'm inclined to believe the Cato Institute here even though I'm a right-authoritarian.
by New haven america » Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:18 pm
Kyundao wrote:Alternamerica wrote:The Cato Institute, a Right-Libertarian biased source, is just as reliable as Jacobin magazine or a Trotskysit newspaper
California has all kinds of taxes and regulations that are causing small business owners and other residents to leave in droves. I'm inclined to believe the Cato Institute here even though I'm a right-authoritarian.
by New haven america » Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:19 pm
Alternamerica wrote:Kyundao wrote:California has all kinds of taxes and regulations that are causing small business owners and other residents to leave in droves. I'm inclined to believe the Cato Institute here even though I'm a right-authoritarian.
Taxes and Regulations =/= Social Democracy
Social Democracy is combining Positive and Negative Civil Liberties like glue that sticks community together. California focuses on Negative Civil Liberties but completely ignore Positive Liberties like Healthcare and Education. There are no social programs in California to help the community unless you're near starvation and even then, if you make a penny above a ridiculously low wage, you lose all support. Taxes are raised, but welfare spending is low, minimum wage is only increased to ensure there are enough poor people to depend on long hours and enough consumption for corporate profits. The state pockets all profits and subsidizes corporations to continue destroying the state's ecology to honor Plutus. That isn't Social Democracy, that's Neoliberalism on crack and even Blairites in the UK would be appalled at ex governor Jerry Brown's policies. But hey, at least wealthy gays can get married. Poor ones can die or something without healthcare
Here's some more info on what Social Democracy is: https://www.britannica.com/topic/social-democracy
AKA: Think of Central and Northern Europe
by The Reformed American Republic » Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:43 pm
New haven america wrote:Alternamerica wrote:
Taxes and Regulations =/= Social Democracy
Social Democracy is combining Positive and Negative Civil Liberties like glue that sticks community together. California focuses on Negative Civil Liberties but completely ignore Positive Liberties like Healthcare and Education. There are no social programs in California to help the community unless you're near starvation and even then, if you make a penny above a ridiculously low wage, you lose all support. Taxes are raised, but welfare spending is low, minimum wage is only increased to ensure there are enough poor people to depend on long hours and enough consumption for corporate profits. The state pockets all profits and subsidizes corporations to continue destroying the state's ecology to honor Plutus. That isn't Social Democracy, that's Neoliberalism on crack and even Blairites in the UK would be appalled at ex governor Jerry Brown's policies. But hey, at least wealthy gays can get married. Poor ones can die or something without healthcare
Here's some more info on what Social Democracy is: https://www.britannica.com/topic/social-democracy
AKA: Think of Central and Northern Europe
For a lot of the US right wing that way to far left.
by Nevertopia » Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:51 pm
MineLegotia and Equestria wrote:A bit of socialism sprinkled into our lives is okay. But like sugar, there should not be too much of it.
So the CCP won't let me be or let me be me so let me see, they tried to shut me down on CBC but it feels so empty without me.
| Civilization Index: Class 9.28 Tier 7: Stellar Settler | Level 7: Wonderful Wizard | Type 7: Astro Ambassador This nation's overview is the primary canon. For more information use NS stats. |
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by The Greater Ohio Valley » Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:06 pm
by Vivolkha » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:00 am
UniversalCommons wrote:Ultimately technology will be more important than socialism or capitalism. With AI and additive manufacturing, things will get even cheaper, it is guaranteed. People will have to make choices about what kind of society we want.
Kowani wrote:Kyundao wrote:California is not neoliberal at all. According to the Cato Institute, it ranks #48 out of 50 states in terms of economic freedom. Neoliberalism requires immense economic freedom and California simply doesn't have this.
The same Cato Institute which ranks New Zealand and Denmark as having high economic freedom despite these places being well-oiled social democracies?
by Resilient Acceleration » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:38 am
UniversalCommons wrote:Ultimately technology will be more important than socialism or capitalism. With AI and additive manufacturing, things will get even cheaper, it is guaranteed. People will have to make choices about what kind of society we want.
2033.12.21
TLDR News | Exclusive: GLOBAL DRONE CRISIS! "Hyper-advanced" Chinese military AI design leaked online by unknown groups, Pres. Yang issues warning of "major outbreak of 3D-printed drone swarm terrorist attacks to US civilians and assets" | Secretary Pasca to expand surveillance on all financial activities through pattern recognition AI to curb the supply chain of QAnon and other domestic terror grassroots
by Kowani » Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:26 am
Vivolkha wrote:UniversalCommons wrote:Ultimately technology will be more important than socialism or capitalism. With AI and additive manufacturing, things will get even cheaper, it is guaranteed. People will have to make choices about what kind of society we want.
This.Kowani wrote:The same Cato Institute which ranks New Zealand and Denmark as having high economic freedom despite these places being well-oiled social democracies?
How are these contradictory?
by Honeydewistania » Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:30 am
Nevertopia wrote:Picairn wrote:Yell it louder for the people in the back!
He said: "I concur! And in a democratic capitalist country you can vote and regulate the market to fix those economic inequality, insecurity and instability! Democratic Social capitalism for the win!"
And that is why capitalism will succeed wherever it is tried.
Alger wrote:if you have egoquotes in your signature, touch grass
by Glorious Hong Kong » Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:54 am
-Ra- wrote:Punished UMN wrote:Okay, Dennis, you really need to get better talking points.
Source:In recent years, scholars have devoted less attention to the debates on colonialism within the Marxist tradition. This reflects the waning influence of Marxism in the academy and in political practice. Marxism, however, has influenced both post-colonial theory and anti-colonial independence movements around the world. Marxists have drawn attention to the material basis of European political expansion and developed concepts that help explain the persistence of economic exploitation after the end of direct political rule.
Although Marx never developed a theory of colonialism, his analysis of capitalism emphasized its inherent tendency to expand in search of new markets. In his classic works such as The Communist Manifesto, Grundrisse, and Capital, Marx predicted that the bourgeoisie would continue to create a global market and undermine both local and national barriers to its own expansion. Expansion is a necessary product of the core dynamic of capitalism: overproduction. Competition among producers drives them to cut wages, which in turn leads to a crisis of under-consumption. The only way to prevent economic collapse is to find new markets to absorb excess consumer goods. From a Marxist perspective, some form of imperialism is inevitable. By exporting population to resource rich foreign territories, a nation creates a market for industrial goods and a reliable source of natural resources. Alternately, weaker countries can face the choice of either voluntarily admitting foreign products that will undermine domestic industry or submitting to political domination, which will accomplish the same end.
In a series of newspaper articles published in the 1850s in the New York Daily Tribune, Marx specifically discussed the impact of British colonialism in India. His analysis was consistent with his general theory of political and economic change. He described India as an essentially feudal society experiencing the painful process of modernization. According to Marx, however, Indian “feudalism” was a distinctive form of economic organization. He reached this conclusion because he believed (incorrectly) that agricultural land in India was owned communally. Marx used the concept of “Oriental despotism” to describe a specific type of class domination that used the state’s power of taxation in order to extract resources from the peasantry. According to Marx, oriental despotism emerged in India because agricultural productivity depended on large-scale public works such as irrigation that could only be financed by the state. This meant that the state could not be easily replaced by a more decentralized system of authority. In Western Europe, feudal property could be transformed gradually into privately owned, alienable property in land. In India, communal land ownership made this impossible, thereby blocking the development of commercial agriculture and free markets. Since “Oriental despotism” inhibited the indigenous development of economic modernization, British domination became the agent of economic modernization.
Marx’s analysis of colonialism as a progressive force bringing modernization to a backward feudal society sounds like a transparent rationalization for foreign domination. His account of British domination, however, reflects the same ambivalence that he shows towards capitalism in Europe. In both cases, Marx recognizes the immense suffering brought about during the transition from feudal to bourgeois society while insisting that the transition is both necessary and ultimately progressive. He argues that the penetration of foreign commerce will cause a social revolution in India. For Marx, this upheaval has both positive and negative consequences. When peasants lose their traditional livelihoods, there is a great deal of human suffering, but he also points out that traditional village communities are hardly idyllic; they are sites of caste oppression, slavery, misery, and cruelty. The first stage of the modernization process is entirely negative, because poor people pay heavy taxation to support British rule and endure the economic upheaval that results from the glut of cheaply produced English cotton. Eventually, however, British merchants begin to realize that Indians cannot pay for imported cloth or British administration if they don’t efficiently produce goods to trade, which provides an incentive for British investment in production and infrastructure. Even though Marx believed that British rule was motivated by greed and exercised through cruelty, he felt it was still the agent of progress. Thus, Marx’s discussion of British rule in India has three dimensions: an account of the progressive character of foreign rule, a critique of the human suffering involved, and a concluding argument that British rule must be temporary if the progressive potential is to be realized.
TLDR: Marx supported colonialism and imperialism because he thought it would further his political objectives.
by Risottia » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:56 am
-Ocelot- wrote:Risottia wrote:1.I'd like to see a source supporting that capitalists believe that they're "voting with their money" and that that's the key point of capitalism.
2.The extracyclic crises of capitalist economies and the informational asymmetry between market players hint that capitalism does not imply a commercial success of the most efficient, effective and practical enterprise.
3.Capitalism has coexisted also with: slavery, imperialism, social democracy, fascism, absolute monarchy, oligarchy, and even with totalitarian countries led by a "communist" party.
Communism has coexisted with: Poverty, malnutrition, cannibalism, genocide, anti-semitism, civil war, cultural destruction, all within its own ideological borders.
by The Hindustani State » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:13 am
by Resilient Acceleration » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:52 am
The Hindustani State wrote:I think some form of saffron socialism is good but we should avoid communism because that turns countries into Chinese puppet states like what happened to Nepal and Laos
2033.12.21
TLDR News | Exclusive: GLOBAL DRONE CRISIS! "Hyper-advanced" Chinese military AI design leaked online by unknown groups, Pres. Yang issues warning of "major outbreak of 3D-printed drone swarm terrorist attacks to US civilians and assets" | Secretary Pasca to expand surveillance on all financial activities through pattern recognition AI to curb the supply chain of QAnon and other domestic terror grassroots
by Bindao » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:01 am
Resilient Acceleration wrote:The Hindustani State wrote:I think some form of saffron socialism is good but we should avoid communism because that turns countries into Chinese puppet states like what happened to Nepal and Laos
I mean, China has long ditched Maoist socialism in favor of "Communism with Capitalist Characteristics". The problem with modern China is more of because it's governed by a genocidal, Orwellian, imperialist regime, and less of the result of actual socialism.
by Resilient Acceleration » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:04 am
Bindao wrote:Resilient Acceleration wrote:I mean, China has long ditched Maoist socialism in favor of "Communism with Capitalist Characteristics". The problem with modern China is more of because it's governed by a genocidal, Orwellian, imperialist regime, and less of the result of actual socialism.
You are deeply mistaken if you think China has completely abandoned its revolutionary fervor of yesteryear.
2033.12.21
TLDR News | Exclusive: GLOBAL DRONE CRISIS! "Hyper-advanced" Chinese military AI design leaked online by unknown groups, Pres. Yang issues warning of "major outbreak of 3D-printed drone swarm terrorist attacks to US civilians and assets" | Secretary Pasca to expand surveillance on all financial activities through pattern recognition AI to curb the supply chain of QAnon and other domestic terror grassroots
by Bindao » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:29 am
by Glorious Hong Kong » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:39 am
-Ra- wrote:Cordel One wrote:Not really. What you fail to understand is that Marx believed capitalism must come before the transition of power to a communist society. Marx does not view colonialism as beneficial, but it is progress. The oppressive system before colonization could never be restructured into one run by the people.
Marx: Colonialism is good, actually, because it fulfills my political objections.
We can thank liberal thinkers like Denis Diderot for actually opposing colonialism, not justifying it.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Kowani wrote:Wait 'till GHK gets here.
I have a theory that that is not really sustainable long-term.
I have no clue-the astroturfing and media bubbles we live in make me somewhat unsure about the prospects of that.
I used to like GHK for his heavy anti-China stance but then he outed himself as a Trumper without realizing Xi is exactly what Trump wishes he was and is trying to be but is too stupid to become.
"Dictators for thee, not for me!" I guess.
Grand Caledonia wrote:Does socialism still present a threat to the world? To your country? Not remotely. Not sure what sort of bogeyman the OP is thinking of, but there isn't some small group of socialist elites influencing every facet of society and bending it to their will for personal power and gain while ignoring the impending climate crisis.
There is, however, a small group of capitalist elites influencing every facet of society and bending it to their will for personal power and gain while ignoring the impending climate crisis.
by Bindao » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:03 am
Glorious Hong Kong wrote:
Then you don't know what actual tyranny is.
America remains a robust, thriving, liberal democracy even after four years of "fascist, white supremacist tyrant" Donald Trump. It's almost as if he has never been and will never be a dictator-for-life. The American constitution and c. 250 years of democratic tradition will never allow that to happen. A number of high-ranking army officers have already published an open letter decrying his antics back in June when he cleared Lafayette Square so he could walk to a local church and hold up an upside-down Bible. I'd like to see him try to seize absolute power for himself and run for a third term. And he's standing up to an even worse tyrant in China as well as crypto-communist insurgents of a slightly different sort at home. He is all that stands between the free world and a second round of communism of both the Chinese and American subtypes. That is the real pandemic.
You should consider yourself lucky to have him as your president and to live in one of the freest societies in the world. The American flag remains a symbol of freedom and democracy to millions of people around the world from Hong Kong to Israel to India to England. Here's a group of Hong Kongers singing the U.S. national anthem and waving the American flag. Also note that Donald Trump is extremely popular in India and Israel, and I'm a staunch supporter of both countries and their geopolitical interests align neatly with mine and with those of the United States.
by Glorious Hong Kong » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:06 am
Resilient Acceleration wrote:But yeah, if the Soviet Union is a badly designed and rotting building with no roof, then Russia is the building after it collapsed into rubble.
-Ocelot- wrote:Risottia wrote:1.I'd like to see a source supporting that capitalists believe that they're "voting with their money" and that that's the key point of capitalism.
2.The extracyclic crises of capitalist economies and the informational asymmetry between market players hint that capitalism does not imply a commercial success of the most efficient, effective and practical enterprise.
3.Capitalism has coexisted also with: slavery, imperialism, social democracy, fascism, absolute monarchy, oligarchy, and even with totalitarian countries led by a "communist" party.
Communism has coexisted with: Poverty, malnutrition, cannibalism, genocide, anti-semitism, civil war, cultural destruction, all within its own ideological borders.
Communism, also known as Marxism, is a failed and widely discredited ideology whose legacy is poverty, mass starvation, cultural suicide and genocide, ethnic cleansing, rape, infanticide, torture, mass murder, the dismantling of longstanding cultural and political institutions, state capitalism, greed, corruption, megalomania, ultranationalism, racism, homophobia, imperialism, neocolonialism, broken promises, outright lies, shameless propaganda, face-saving coverups, deadly viral pandemics, entitled, elitist, conservative, upper-class snobbery and the accompanying oppression and subjugation of the working poor, and fascism.
The Reformed American Republic wrote:-Ra- wrote:It's important to remember that socialism is not universal healthcare, public roads, free public education, taxes, unions, or "the government doing stuff." These are social policies, not socialist policies, and they are all perfectly compatible with capitalism.
Thank God you posted this clarification. I am pretty anti-communist and I'm not a fan of socialism, but I roll my eyes when some people claim that single payer healthcare is communist or that government doing anything to help non-rich people is evil communism sneaking in.
UniversalCommons wrote:Quite a few popular socialist governments were tried but taken out by fascism. *snip* the Prague Spring failed. Very few socialist governments who announce themselves to the world last.
by Senkaku » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:19 am
Glorious Hong Kong wrote:*snip*
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