Most controversial person in history

[Geneviev]

Newton and Leibniz.

Who invented calculus?

[Somerania]

Sorry, I didn’t see the other responses before posting. gg.

I will stand by my Werner Von Braun pick, though.

You mean Wernher Magnus Maximilian Freiherr von Braun

[Mathuvan Union]

Chuang Kai-shen,or should say-Jiang Jieshi,
I think at least belong one of the asia most controversial person.

Chiang Kai-Shek?

[Punished UMN]

Genghis Khan, maybe?

Overran half the world, depopulated entire cities, but also the father of modern diplomacy (with its diplomatic immunity).

Diplomatic immunity has been around since the ancient Mediterranean world.

[The Blaatschapen]

Millions did die because of the aftermath, he helped with some of the research. I still stand true.

Not really. He came up with theories underlying the atomic reaction, but wasn’t a part of the Manhattan project. That’s like blaming firearm deaths on the ancient Chinese dude who invented gun powder.

And do you have a source for “millions”? I mean, even if the deaths of everyone who lived in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or worked on the Manhattan project or exposed to any other nuclear test could be attributed directly or indirectly to nuclear weapons, it might push one million. Do you have a source for more than that?

For the purposes of this thread, there's is a difference between blaming someone for something, and them having made an impact on the world which later made a vile act possible (but also good acts, otherwise, not even in this thread).

*in before someone claims Adam and Eva as most controversial*

[Kiu Ghesik]

Werner Von Braun.
used slave labour to construct V2 rockets, and Operation Paperclip and his ethics led to the CIA's tactics being torture.

And what is the good side of him?

His own writing, if we trust it, indicates that he was really only affiliated with the Nazis because they were enabling his larger goal of man in space. Apparently after the first V2 test he stated that it worked perfectly until it came down, or something along those lines. By his own admission the weaponry was to him a secondary, somewhat unwanted outgrowth of the technology he developed.

I'm fairly certain he didn't ask for the slave labor, the Nazis just provided it and he didn't say no, which is somewhat a worthless distinction but I feel it should be made regardless.

And the CIA was probably using torture well before Von Braun came along. I don't understand what the purpose of equating one man's ethics to the CIA's interrogation practices is when to my knowledge that man was never involved in determining those interrogation practices.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I’d say one of them is King Ferdinand II of Aragon. A true Machiavellian who permitted the injustices carried out by the Spanish Inquisition, with far reaching repercussions in the entire Iberian Peninsula. Even today. Who had no qualms with kicking the Jews out of the kingdoms. Who made sure to keep his own daughter from ascending to the throne out of greed to keep Castile under his rule and who allowed many of the crimes committed in the colonies despite knowing full well what was going on.

[Mathuvan Union]

And what is the good side of him?

His own writing, if we trust it, indicates that he was really only affiliated with the Nazis because they were enabling his larger goal of man in space. Apparently after the first V2 test he stated that it worked perfectly until it came down, or something along those lines. By his own admission the weaponry was to him a secondary, somewhat unwanted outgrowth of the technology he developed.

I'm fairly certain he didn't ask for the slave labor, the Nazis just provided it and he didn't say no, which is somewhat a worthless distinction but I feel it should be made regardless.

And the CIA was probably using torture well before Von Braun came along. I don't understand what the purpose of equating one man's ethics to the CIA's interrogation practices is when to my knowledge that man was never involved in determining those interrogation practices.

the CIA didn't exist until 1949...

[The Blaatschapen]

I’d say one of them is King Ferdinand II of Aragon. A true Machiavellian who permitted the injustices carried out by the Spanish Inquisition, with far reaching repercussions in the entire Iberian Peninsula. Even today. Who had no qualms with kicking the Jews out of the kingdoms. Who made sure to keep his own daughter from ascending to the throne out of greed to keep Castile under his rule and who allowed many of the crimes committed in the colonies despite knowing full well what was going on.

And what is the good side of him?

[Mathuvan Union]

I’d say one of them is King Ferdinand II of Aragon. A true Machiavellian who permitted the injustices carried out by the Spanish Inquisition, with far reaching repercussions in the entire Iberian Peninsula. Even today. Who had no qualms with kicking the Jews out of the kingdoms. Who made sure to keep his own daughter from ascending to the throne out of greed to keep Castile under his rule and who allowed many of the crimes committed in the colonies despite knowing full well what was going on.

And what is the good side of him?

he united spain...?

[Kiu Ghesik]

His own writing, if we trust it, indicates that he was really only affiliated with the Nazis because they were enabling his larger goal of man in space. Apparently after the first V2 test he stated that it worked perfectly until it came down, or something along those lines. By his own admission the weaponry was to him a secondary, somewhat unwanted outgrowth of the technology he developed.

I'm fairly certain he didn't ask for the slave labor, the Nazis just provided it and he didn't say no, which is somewhat a worthless distinction but I feel it should be made regardless.

And the CIA was probably using torture well before Von Braun came along. I don't understand what the purpose of equating one man's ethics to the CIA's interrogation practices is when to my knowledge that man was never involved in determining those interrogation practices.

the CIA didn't exist until 1949...

Good point. I stand corrected. Though I still don't see how von Braun specifically can be blamed for it. Operation Paperclip and introducing a bunch of nasty fellows into the intelligence apparatus? Yeah, but I don't think von Braun ever had connections to that apparatus.

[Mathuvan Union]

the CIA didn't exist until 1949...

Good point. I stand corrected. Though I still don't see how von Braun specifically can be blamed for it. Operation Paperclip and introducing a bunch of nasty fellows into the intelligence apparatus? Yeah, but I don't think von Braun ever had connections to that apparatus.

there was another one who certainly did because he was executed for war crimes.
Von Braun helped with the design of space suits, but likely only because of horrific tests performed on enslaved jews that involved oxygen deprivation.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I’d say one of them is King Ferdinand II of Aragon. A true Machiavellian who permitted the injustices carried out by the Spanish Inquisition, with far reaching repercussions in the entire Iberian Peninsula. Even today. Who had no qualms with kicking the Jews out of the kingdoms. Who made sure to keep his own daughter from ascending to the throne out of greed to keep Castile under his rule and who allowed many of the crimes committed in the colonies despite knowing full well what was going on.

And what is the good side of him?

I have never seen it, tbh. He was also a manipulator and a huge gaslighter to his wife (whom he cheated on with pretty much the entire court) and kids.

[New Ruchaar]

Maybe Pablo Escobar? Everybody knows he has a local reputation in Colombia as a “Robin Hood-like figure”, with a lot of the time and money he put into the communities, but he was also of course one of the most notorious drug lords in history and is responsible for the deaths of surely tens of thousands

I don’t think George Wallace is the most controversial but I think he still deserves to be mentioned. Most people now would agree that he was just an angry bigot, that’s why he isn’t the most controversial (because he’s devoid of lots of controversy), but I think he stood as the primary figure in opposition to the Civil Rights Movement, and those who opposed the Civil Rights Movement stood behind George Wallace. I think without a George Wallace to garner the crown as “the most influential loser in American politics”, the Civil Rights Movement might honestly have not accomplished such things as the Civil Rights Act, because the people and things they were protesting wouldn’t have had a mainstream platform as seen through Wallace

[Kiu Ghesik]

Good point. I stand corrected. Though I still don't see how von Braun specifically can be blamed for it. Operation Paperclip and introducing a bunch of nasty fellows into the intelligence apparatus? Yeah, but I don't think von Braun ever had connections to that apparatus.

there was another one who certainly did because he was executed for war crimes.
Von Braun helped with the design of space suits, but likely only because of horrific tests performed on enslaved jews that involved oxygen deprivation.

Wasn't that another guy? IIRC the Nazis never developed space suits or anything like that, and they were pretty compartmentalized. I doubt he would have gotten his hands on work from the camps or Mengele's stuff.
Von Braun allegedly h a t e d the stuff the Nazis did to his workers, but did nothing about it. There's allegations he beat people and ordered prisoners tortured, but there's not-insignificant evidence that these reports were misattributed to others at the V2 plant, especially since the commandant in charge of the workers at the plant had a reputation for brutality. So I'd say he's a controversial dude in the sense he's human, bows to authority, and was willing to look past nasty shit to achieve things for what he sees as the greater good, but he's not a cackling evil maniac.

[Ethel mermania]

God.

[Mathuvan Union]

Kaiser Wilhelm II.

God.

this is a very true statement.

[The Archregimancy]

The unnamed individual(s) who inaugurated the Neolithic agricultural revolution somewhere in the modern Middle East.

Yes, having a more reliable source of food was nice; but against that was the negative impact on nutrition (average human height wouldn't reach pre-Neolithic levels again until the 20th century), a rise in social and gender inequality, and potentially a decline in the happiness levels of human populations (though research on the latter often relies on analysis of modern hunter-gatherer populations, so should be taken with a pinch of salt). We'll call the ability to support denser population centres a mixed bag.

[Mathuvan Union]

there was another one who certainly did because he was executed for war crimes.
Von Braun helped with the design of space suits, but likely only because of horrific tests performed on enslaved jews that involved oxygen deprivation.

Wasn't that another guy? IIRC the Nazis never developed space suits or anything like that, and they were pretty compartmentalized. I doubt he would have gotten his hands on work from the camps or Mengele's stuff.
Von Braun allegedly h a t e d the stuff the Nazis did to his workers, but did nothing about it. There's allegations he beat people and ordered prisoners tortured, but there's not-insignificant evidence that these reports were misattributed to others at the V2 plant, especially since the commandant in charge of the workers at the plant had a reputation for brutality. So I'd say he's a controversial dude in the sense he's human, bows to authority, and was willing to look past nasty shit to achieve things for what he sees as the greater good, but he's not a cackling evil maniac.

he did. he factory relied on slave labour from camps

[The Blaatschapen]

God.

Why, thank you

[Kiu Ghesik]

Wasn't that another guy? IIRC the Nazis never developed space suits or anything like that, and they were pretty compartmentalized. I doubt he would have gotten his hands on work from the camps or Mengele's stuff.
Von Braun allegedly h a t e d the stuff the Nazis did to his workers, but did nothing about it. There's allegations he beat people and ordered prisoners tortured, but there's not-insignificant evidence that these reports were misattributed to others at the V2 plant, especially since the commandant in charge of the workers at the plant had a reputation for brutality. So I'd say he's a controversial dude in the sense he's human, bows to authority, and was willing to look past nasty shit to achieve things for what he sees as the greater good, but he's not a cackling evil maniac.

he did. he factory relied on slave labour from camps

Yeah. Here's the relevant info from Wikipedia:

SS General Hans Kammler, who as an engineer had constructed several concentration camps, including Auschwitz, had a reputation for brutality and had originated the idea of using concentration camp prisoners as slave laborers in the rocket program. Arthur Rudolph, chief engineer of the V-2 rocket factory at Peenemünde, endorsed this idea in April 1943 when a labor shortage developed. More people died building the V-2 rockets than were killed by it as a weapon.[41] Von Braun admitted visiting the plant at Mittelwerk on many occasions,[6] and called conditions at the plant "repulsive", but claimed never to have personally witnessed any deaths or beatings, although it had become clear to him by 1944 that deaths had occurred.[42] He denied ever having visited the Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp itself, where 20,000 died from illness, beatings, hangings, and intolerable working conditions.[43]

Some prisoners claim von Braun engaged in brutal treatment or approved of it. Guy Morand, a French resistance fighter who was a prisoner in Dora, testified in 1995 that after an apparent sabotage attempt, von Braun ordered a prisoner to be flogged,[44] while Robert Cazabonne, another French prisoner, claimed von Braun stood by as prisoners were hanged by chains suspended by cranes.[44]:123–124 However, these accounts may have been a case of mistaken identity.[45] Former Buchenwald inmate Adam Cabala claims that von Braun went to the concentration camp to pick slave laborers:

... also the German scientists led by Prof. Wernher von Braun were aware of everything daily. As they went along the corridors, they saw the exhaustion of the inmates, their arduous work and their pain. Not one single time did Prof. Wernher von Braun protest against this cruelty during his frequent stays at Dora. Even the aspect of corpses did not touch him: On a small area near the ambulance shed, inmates tortured to death by slave labor and the terror of the overseers were piling up daily. But, Prof. Wernher von Braun passed them so close that he was almost touching the corpses.[46]

Von Braun later claimed that he was aware of the treatment of prisoners, but felt helpless to change the situation.[47]

All of this summarized indicates to me he felt pressured to do horrible things, did those horrible things, and spent the rest of his life trying to rationalize why he did those things. Probably the definition of controversial.

[Mathuvan Union]

he did. he factory relied on slave labour from camps

Yeah. Here's the relevant info from Wikipedia:

SS General Hans Kammler, who as an engineer had constructed several concentration camps, including Auschwitz, had a reputation for brutality and had originated the idea of using concentration camp prisoners as slave laborers in the rocket program. Arthur Rudolph, chief engineer of the V-2 rocket factory at Peenemünde, endorsed this idea in April 1943 when a labor shortage developed. More people died building the V-2 rockets than were killed by it as a weapon.[41] Von Braun admitted visiting the plant at Mittelwerk on many occasions,[6] and called conditions at the plant "repulsive", but claimed never to have personally witnessed any deaths or beatings, although it had become clear to him by 1944 that deaths had occurred.[42] He denied ever having visited the Mittelbau-Dora concentration camp itself, where 20,000 died from illness, beatings, hangings, and intolerable working conditions.[43]

Some prisoners claim von Braun engaged in brutal treatment or approved of it. Guy Morand, a French resistance fighter who was a prisoner in Dora, testified in 1995 that after an apparent sabotage attempt, von Braun ordered a prisoner to be flogged,[44] while Robert Cazabonne, another French prisoner, claimed von Braun stood by as prisoners were hanged by chains suspended by cranes.[44]:123–124 However, these accounts may have been a case of mistaken identity.[45] Former Buchenwald inmate Adam Cabala claims that von Braun went to the concentration camp to pick slave laborers:

... also the German scientists led by Prof. Wernher von Braun were aware of everything daily. As they went along the corridors, they saw the exhaustion of the inmates, their arduous work and their pain. Not one single time did Prof. Wernher von Braun protest against this cruelty during his frequent stays at Dora. Even the aspect of corpses did not touch him: On a small area near the ambulance shed, inmates tortured to death by slave labor and the terror of the overseers were piling up daily. But, Prof. Wernher von Braun passed them so close that he was almost touching the corpses.[46]

Von Braun later claimed that he was aware of the treatment of prisoners, but felt helpless to change the situation.[47]

All of this summarized indicates to me he felt pressured to do horrible things, did those horrible things, and spent the rest of his life trying to rationalize why he did those things. Probably the definition of controversial.

that's likely untrue.
he could have stopped it if he wished but was highly pressured by Nazi officials.

[The Archregimancy]

5000 years of recorded history to choose from, and there's only 3 nominations so far (when I started writing this post) from before the 15th century AD (excluding God). That leaves you 3500 years of history to play with.

Octavian/Augustus, Mohammed, and Genghis Khan aren't bad as pre-modern nominations go, but you could do so much better if you tried.

Khufu, Sargon of Akkad, Akhenaten, Alexander the Great, Qin Shi Huang, Constantine the Great, Khusrau II, Wu Zetian ... there's so much material to work with here if you put just a bit of effort in.

[Ethel mermania]

The unnamed individual(s) who inaugurated the Neolithic agricultural revolution somewhere in the modern Middle East.

Yes, having a more reliable source of food was nice; but against that was the negative impact on nutrition (average human height wouldn't reach pre-Neolithic levels again until the 20th century), a rise in social and gender inequality, and potentially a decline in the happiness levels of human populations (though research on the latter often relies on analysis of modern hunter-gatherer populations, so should be taken with a pinch of salt). We'll call the ability to support denser population centres a mixed bag.

It was easier on their feet.

[Mathuvan Union]

5000 years of recorded history to choose from, and there's only 3 nominations so far (when I started writing this post) from before the 15th century AD (excluding God). That leaves you 3500 years of history to play with.

Octavian/Augustus, Mohammed, and Genghis Khan aren't bad as pre-modern nominations go, but you could do so much better if you tried.

Khufu, Sargon of Akkad, Akhenaten, Alexander the Great, Qin Shi Huang, Constantine the Great, Khusrau II, Wu Zetian ... there's so much material to work with here if you put just a bit of effort in.

Julius Caesar would work.