by Cisairse » Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:50 pm
by Nilrahrarfan » Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:51 pm
Cisairse wrote:I came across this article recently and it really made me laugh.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12741562/ ... alifornia/
Leftists such as myself constantly deride the wealthy for attempting to co-opt social movements, and "woke" white liberals (usually women) for creating co-optable social movements in the first place and essentially ceding the seriousness of their goals to those who would co-opt it to increase the value of the personal or corporate brand.
So I figured this was as good as a catalyst as any to start a discussion on social justice, the "social justice movement," and what the role of intersectionality is on progressivism.
The intellectual argument — to the extent that there is one — for intersectionality is that fighting against a specific injustice requires "powerful allies" in order to be broadly successful in modern Western society. More specifically, the theory of social intersectionality (which, importantly, is distinct from feminist intersectionality, which is an unrelated although superficially similar concept) allows the existence of "ambassadors" for social change that are in some way privileged in order to help advance the progressive agenda more rapidly than would be possible without such "ambassadors."
The argument against this concept is that those who hold privilege in society cannot reasonably relate to the struggles of those being oppressed because they are not forced to live under oppressive conditions. This inability to relate to the struggle means that the "ambassador" is only taking up the progressive cause for selfish reasons (whether they know it or not) — to make more money, to get more publicity, or simply to help themselves feel better. In short, the "ambassador" does not need to support reform, they just want to, which means that when the cause becomes burdensome to support, the "ambassador" will abandon it and return to their privileged lifestyle — something the oppressed are physically not capable of doing.
What are your thoughts on this subject? Do you believe that it is worthwhile for progressive causes to seek allies among the media, celebrities, and politicians? Is Ms. Milano's ironic story emblematic of a fundamentally damaging phenomenon, or merely a unique expression of hypocrisy?
Personally I feel that intersectionality in social movements is entirely counter-productive and that people who hold positions of privilege in society should not attempt to insert themselves into the narrative of social change unless they actually are making a difference.
by West Leas Oros 2 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:07 pm
Cisairse wrote:I came across this article recently and it really made me laugh.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12741562/ ... alifornia/
Leftists such as myself constantly deride the wealthy for attempting to co-opt social movements, and "woke" white liberals (usually women) for creating co-optable social movements in the first place and essentially ceding the seriousness of their goals to those who would co-opt it to increase the value of the personal or corporate brand.
So I figured this was as good as a catalyst as any to start a discussion on social justice, the "social justice movement," and what the role of intersectionality is on progressivism.
The intellectual argument — to the extent that there is one — for intersectionality is that fighting against a specific injustice requires "powerful allies" in order to be broadly successful in modern Western society. More specifically, the theory of social intersectionality (which, importantly, is distinct from feminist intersectionality, which is an unrelated although superficially similar concept) allows the existence of "ambassadors" for social change that are in some way privileged in order to help advance the progressive agenda more rapidly than would be possible without such "ambassadors."
The argument against this concept is that those who hold privilege in society cannot reasonably relate to the struggles of those being oppressed because they are not forced to live under oppressive conditions. This inability to relate to the struggle means that the "ambassador" is only taking up the progressive cause for selfish reasons (whether they know it or not) — to make more money, to get more publicity, or simply to help themselves feel better. In short, the "ambassador" does not need to support reform, they just want to, which means that when the cause becomes burdensome to support, the "ambassador" will abandon it and return to their privileged lifestyle — something the oppressed are physically not capable of doing.
What are your thoughts on this subject? Do you believe that it is worthwhile for progressive causes to seek allies among the media, celebrities, and politicians? Is Ms. Milano's ironic story emblematic of a fundamentally damaging phenomenon, or merely a unique expression of hypocrisy?
Personally I feel that intersectionality in social movements is entirely counter-productive and that people who hold positions of privilege in society should not attempt to insert themselves into the narrative of social change unless they actually are making a difference.
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by Auristania » Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:17 pm
by -Astoria- » Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:23 pm
Do you believe that it is worthwhile for progressive causes to seek allies among the media, celebrities, and politicians?
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by The of Japan » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:07 pm
by Costa Fierro » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:47 pm
by Diarcesia » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:57 pm
Costa Fierro wrote:People of wealth and influence "adopting" social causes is one of the reasons why people do not take these kinds of movements seriously. Celebrities and other people of social influence simply jump onboard with these movements for personal reasons, as it builds up their image while they simultaneously work to promote the current status quo. They benefit from both the status quo and social movements, because it guarantees them influence and notoriety.
by The Reformed American Republic » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:27 pm
by Nilrahrarfan » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:38 pm
Costa Fierro wrote:People of wealth and influence "adopting" social causes is one of the reasons why people do not take these kinds of movements seriously. Celebrities and other people of social influence simply jump onboard with these movements for personal reasons, as it builds up their image while they simultaneously work to promote the current status quo. They benefit from both the status quo and social movements, because it guarantees them influence and notoriety.
As for intersectionality and social justice, they're often abused by the people who need them the most, and most often there's no actual attempt to fix the problems but to assert one's beliefs over others and to to assert control and influence of their own.
by Nobel Hobos 2 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:25 pm
by Dumb Ideologies » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:17 am
by Glorious Hong Kong » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:35 am
by -Astoria- » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:55 am
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by West Leas Oros 2 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:23 am
Diarcesia wrote:Three words: Critical Race Theory
Talk about overcorrecting to the point of not being grounded in reality anymore.
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by West Leas Oros 2 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:35 am
Glorious Hong Kong wrote:It could just as easily be the case that SJWs are coercing celebrities, rich people, and large, multinational corporations into toeing the woke line under pain of cancellation and/or a (possibly minor and insignificant, but that won't stop those fat cats) loss in revenue. These same celebs and corporations (e.g. LeBron James, Disney, Blizzard, Facebook, Google, etc.) have been known to simultaneously appease the CCP all the same, although there is currently no proven link between the CCP and American leftists other than shared ideology.
Fear is what drives compliance among non-Marxist "allies" as much as greed and self-interest. Both Marxists and rich, virtue-signaling non-Marxists view the other as useful idiots. This is similar to the unholy alliance between wealthy businessmen and the CCP in Hong Kong. It would explain the existence of state capitalism.
As for intersectionality itself, I do not support the idea that a rich, black, trans, lesbian, Muslim woman is "oppressed" while a poor, white, cis, hetero, Christian man is "privileged".
Now this is some wacky shit. What do we have to gain by inciting bigotry? The only people that win under that arrangement are the powers that be. If the people are divided into identitarian sects trying to kill each other, then good luck overthrowing capitalism. You know how people like Trump draw up fear of immigrants to keep workers in line? So too do the liberals preaching their brand of identity. They want us fighting each other, not fighting the capitalists.Intersectionality has never been about social justice. This is an attempt by leftists to seize power at all costs by inciting racial, gender, and other forms of resentment and hatred between certain groups of people. This is about divide & conquer.
The real intersectionality involves identitarian Marxists aided and abetted by unprincipled or fearful non-Marxists oppressing ordinary Americans of all races, genders, sexual orientations, religions, and gender identities. The oppression Olympics is nothing more than a smokescreen and a prelude to real tyranny.
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by Aureumterra III » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:38 am
by West Leas Oros 2 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:38 am
Auristania wrote:Political Correctness gone mad, they say.
PC has never gone mad, PC is a very efficient system for the Bosses to suppress the Workers with Ideology. If PC ever supported the Workers versus the Bosses, THAT would be PC gone mad and it has never ever happened.
OP suggests that ambassadors are an excruscence upon the Movement who will betray the Movement when convenient. I assert that those liberal Boss ambassadors are the Rulers of SJW from the very start.
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by Aureumterra III » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:41 am
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Democracy doesn't work at all without intersectionality. Arguably there's too much of it in Two Party democracy, but only because it's required by the electoral system.
by Alternamerica » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:36 am
by West Leas Oros 2 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:40 am
Alternamerica wrote:
Afrocentrism, like Eurocentrism, is a biased view of social science from the lens of those groups.
Critical Race Theory is basically breaking things down to race relations. It's the founder of Microaggression and "Whiteness as property"
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by Sundiata » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:41 am
by Cisairse » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:47 am
Glorious Hong Kong wrote:As for intersectionality itself, I do not support the idea that a rich, black, trans, lesbian, Muslim woman is "oppressed" while a poor, white, cis, hetero, Christian man is "privileged". Intersectionality has never been about social justice. This is an attempt by leftists to seize power at all costs by inciting racial, gender, and other forms of resentment and hatred between certain groups of people. This is about divide & conquer. The real intersectionality involves identitarian Marxists aided and abetted by unprincipled or fearful non-Marxists oppressing ordinary Americans of all races, genders, sexual orientations, religions, and gender identities. The oppression Olympics is nothing more than a smokescreen and a prelude to real tyranny.
by West Leas Oros 2 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:50 am
Cisairse wrote:Glorious Hong Kong wrote:As for intersectionality itself, I do not support the idea that a rich, black, trans, lesbian, Muslim woman is "oppressed" while a poor, white, cis, hetero, Christian man is "privileged". Intersectionality has never been about social justice. This is an attempt by leftists to seize power at all costs by inciting racial, gender, and other forms of resentment and hatred between certain groups of people. This is about divide & conquer. The real intersectionality involves identitarian Marxists aided and abetted by unprincipled or fearful non-Marxists oppressing ordinary Americans of all races, genders, sexual orientations, religions, and gender identities. The oppression Olympics is nothing more than a smokescreen and a prelude to real tyranny.
This seems particularly divorced from reality, for a number of reasons:
- Members of racial, ethnic, gender, and religious minorities demonstratably face oppression — although it is my earnest belief that the oppression they face is not superior to (or even coequal with) the oppression faced by proletarians as a group.
- Intersectionality is in fact only about social justice, often to the point of anguish of classical-minded revolutionaries.
- I am not sure what "real tyranny" you think leftists espouse; the entire idea behind Marxism is proletarian liberation (and the entire idea behind intersectionality is the liberation of all oppressed groups). Trust me when I say that if you're a proletarian, I fight for you; and if you're an oppressed minority of any flavor, intersectionalists will probably fight for you.
- Identifying structures of oppression against minorities with individuals in majority groups is not only extremely fallacious, I would argue that it is downright malicious.
Feel free to provide further evidence for any of your claims; I find your post lacking in that department.
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