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Free Speech:「Yes or No」

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is freedom of speech?

"Pure" freedom of speech, with no limitations by government or individuals, even for hateful content
207
38%
Freedom of speech with no restrictions by the government, but individuals can censor or restrict others (ie, companies or internet forums can deplatform someone)
172
32%
Freedom of speech with restrictions on hateful speech by the government, but not individuals (ie, the government decides what is hateful, and private companies take this as a guideline)
70
13%
Freedom of speech with hateful speech restricted by government and individuals
52
10%
No freedom of speech at all
18
3%
Other (Please specify in comments below)
23
4%
 
Total votes : 542

User avatar
Vetalia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13527
Founded: Mar 23, 2005
Corporate Bordello

Postby Vetalia » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:19 pm

Cekoviu wrote:a) why's natural good
b) don't pull that evopsych bs on me


a). Natural is good when it is healthy and beneficial to our mental health and ability to succeed and thrive as a species. Rather remarkable that the most successful, most prosperous, most fulfilled and happiest societies on the planet all share a common embrace of freedom as a fundamental human right, whether San bushmen hunter-gatherers in South Africa or the people living in modern liberal democracies.

b). As much as you might not like it, we are as much a product of evolution as every other species on our planet. Totalitarianism and bureaucracy on the scales implemented in the past 100 years are an aberration in history and go completely against everything we know in our bones to be right and best for us as a species. Our entire history as modern man, let alone our predecessors, is based upon freedom, exploration and curiosity.

And I know your type, you believe that when the Revolution comes you'll be one of the great leaders, the one in charge of everything with a spacious apartment and private car implementing its ideals across the nation to roaring applause from the workers and peasants. Fact is, people far more ruthless and less ideological than you are already plotting against you and will take over in short order, and if you're lucky you'll be lower than dogshit in the Party ranks exiled to somewhere in the middle of nowhere, oppressed and hungry just like the rest of us. If you're unfortunate or foolish enough to speak your mind and try to rail about the platitudes of the Revolution, you'll find your way to the prison with a bullet in the back of your head. Happens every time.
Last edited by Vetalia on Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Economic Left/Right: 0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05

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The Greater Ohio Valley
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6683
Founded: Jan 19, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:28 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:I imagine people, and in turn society, is generally happier without the threat of being gulag’d, killed or tortured for daring to speak their mind on things they want to speak their minds on, enjoy the things they like enjoying (provided they aren’t raping, murdering or maiming other people) or just going about their day. You seem to be enjoying those freedoms right now.

believe me, if i knew i could just easily get killed for writing politics online, i'd be thrilled, but that's beside the point
why are rape, murder, and maiming somehow a distinct class, the only prohibited things to you? what's special about them?

If you wanna drag this into a philosophical rigmarole over why rape, murder and maiming is “special” then I know you’re not in this in particularly good faith because you probably know all the possible answers to that one and I’m good on not having to waste my time.
Fly me to the moon on an irradiated manhole cover.
Hey, it’s up to us to take our Umbrella.
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.1

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The Emerald Legion
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10084
Founded: Mar 18, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Emerald Legion » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:36 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Vetalia wrote:
It's the natural, best state of human existence and deeply ingrained in us via millions of years of evolution.

a) why's natural good
b) don't pull that evopsych bs on me
The Emerald Legion wrote:
By and large, Rape, Murder, and Maiming people requires violating their freedom of choice.

what about, say, taxation? that violates freedom of choice, more or less. or how about abortion? hunting? if those don't count, why not? do only adult humans have the right to bodily integrity and their life? why?


I'm not particularly fond of taxation either, however, hypothetically it doesn't violate freedom of choice as everyone has a say in the government, meaning everyone has a say in what the government spends money on, and therefor an obligation to pay their fair share of what's been agreed to do. The trouble comes when the government loses that representative nature.

There's a difference between killing someone and not providing them with something they need to live. I don't have to hand a starving man food just because he's starving. But I should not be allowed to stab said starving man in the throat.

Also no, Animals don't have rights. They're property.
"23.The unwise man is awake all night, and ponders everything over; when morning comes he is weary in mind, and all is a burden as ever." - Havamal

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Sanghyeok
Senator
 
Posts: 3680
Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:37 pm

I would recommend everyone return to the topic of this thread.
サンヒョク社会主義連邦
我が祖国は、革命の赤旗を守る! 世界の労働者万歳 統一戦線万歳! どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Oomiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things
Chairwoman Oomiya in tea party with Azur Deutschland Rose Twins | Chairwoman Oomiya with delegation from various realms in celebration of 861st Birthday Gala
You may not be Chairwoman Oomiya, but you can borrow her look with the new Oomiya Fall Collection

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Washington Resistance Army
Post Czar
 
Posts: 46278
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:38 pm

Cekoviu wrote:there should not be freedom of speech or freedom of the press


This tbh. Freedom of speech and the press is quite easily the most dangerous and destructive thing in our nation.
Leaning towards Agrarian State Socialism, Anti-Racist, Authoritarian

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US-SSR
Minister
 
Posts: 2315
Founded: Aug 02, 2018
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby US-SSR » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:50 pm

Freedom of speech = the government cannot persecute you because of what you say or believe. It does not mean you're free to say or believe assholish things and not be called an asshole.
Last edited by US-SSR on Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
8:46

We're not going to control the pandemic!

It is a slaughter and not just a political dispute.

"The scraps of narcissism, the rotten remnants of conspiracy theories, the offal of sour grievance, the half-eaten bits of resentment flow by. They do not cohere. But they move in the same, insistent current of self, self, self."

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The Emerald Legion
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10084
Founded: Mar 18, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Emerald Legion » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:51 pm

US-SSR wrote:Freedom of speech = the government cannot persecute you because of what you say or believe. It does not mean you're free to say or believe assholish things and not be called out as an asshole.


However, you're also not free to just fire people solely because they're an asshole.
"23.The unwise man is awake all night, and ponders everything over; when morning comes he is weary in mind, and all is a burden as ever." - Havamal

User avatar
US-SSR
Minister
 
Posts: 2315
Founded: Aug 02, 2018
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby US-SSR » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:55 pm

The Emerald Legion wrote:
US-SSR wrote:Freedom of speech = the government cannot persecute you because of what you say or believe. It does not mean you're free to say or believe assholish things and not be called out as an asshole.


However, you're also not free to just fire people solely because they're an asshole.


Ah, yes you are, if they don't have a union to stand up for them and/or if you have a business need not to employ assholes or have them associated with your brand. Which pretty much describes every publicly held company, government or academic institution, etc. etc. etc.
8:46

We're not going to control the pandemic!

It is a slaughter and not just a political dispute.

"The scraps of narcissism, the rotten remnants of conspiracy theories, the offal of sour grievance, the half-eaten bits of resentment flow by. They do not cohere. But they move in the same, insistent current of self, self, self."

User avatar
Sanghyeok
Senator
 
Posts: 3680
Founded: Dec 29, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Sanghyeok » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:55 pm

The Emerald Legion wrote:
US-SSR wrote:Freedom of speech = the government cannot persecute you because of what you say or believe. It does not mean you're free to say or believe assholish things and not be called out as an asshole.


However, you're also not free to just fire people solely because they're an asshole.


Private organizations have this right.
サンヒョク社会主義連邦
我が祖国は、革命の赤旗を守る! 世界の労働者万歳 統一戦線万歳! どんな時も、その眩しさを覚えていた
Magical socialist paradise headed by an immortal, tea-loving and sometimes childish Chairwoman who happens to be the younger Oomiya sister

Mini custard puddings
And fresh poured Darjeeling
Strawberry parfait so sweet and appealing,
Little soft plushies and baths in hot springs
These are a few of my favourite things
Chairwoman Oomiya in tea party with Azur Deutschland Rose Twins | Chairwoman Oomiya with delegation from various realms in celebration of 861st Birthday Gala
You may not be Chairwoman Oomiya, but you can borrow her look with the new Oomiya Fall Collection

User avatar
Urquhart
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Sep 21, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Urquhart » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:57 pm

Freedom of Speech is a potentially dangerous business, however it should be tolerated to a certain degree. As long as it doesn't incite chaos and doesn't attempt to subvert rational debate.
Last edited by Urquhart on Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Empirical Switzerland
Senator
 
Posts: 3831
Founded: Feb 27, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Empirical Switzerland » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:58 pm

Urquhart wrote:Freedom of Speech is a privilege is our esteemed nation. Freedom of Speech has resulted in many a fool bypassing rational debate and inciting chaos. This is something that absolutely couldn't be tolerated, as these rabble have caused the destruction and subversion of our orderly sociopolitical climate. Thus, they have all been censored in the media and imprisoned for extended periods of time.

If you think this is, this is not in character rp questions.
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Bienenhalde
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5566
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Bienenhalde » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:59 pm

I think the Federal Republic of Germany has the right idea in that they censor both Neo-Nazis and far-left communists.
Bienenhalde (mostly) represents my real political views.
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Cekoviu
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16699
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Cekoviu » Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:10 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:there should not be freedom of speech or freedom of the press


This tbh. Freedom of speech and the press is quite easily the most dangerous and destructive thing in our nation.

man i enjoy the new based wra
RWDT - REST IN POWER
David Hume fangirl, massive Tuvaboo, anti-imperialist, and Castroist socialist. Also a sex-negative SWERF, traditionalist SJW, and Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian.
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VlaRiSsiA
Envoy
 
Posts: 212
Founded: Oct 16, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby VlaRiSsiA » Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:17 pm

Free speech is one of the most important liberties. Allowing corporate entities and hierarchies such as the state to suppress freedom of expression goes against my values as a libertarian socialist. True, things like bigotry are egregious, but it shouldn’t be the state suppressing its rather the people being able to react in it however way they please.
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Infected Mushroom
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34042
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:18 pm

Free speech is good, except where it conflicts with national security. Then safety has to come first.

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US-SSR
Minister
 
Posts: 2315
Founded: Aug 02, 2018
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby US-SSR » Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:22 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:Free speech is good, except where it conflicts with national security. Then safety has to come first.


Free speech means the state can prosecute you for treasonous or seditious acts, but not treasonous or seditious thoughts or ideas. Giving the state the power to decide which thoughts or ideas are treasonous or seditious and thus prosecuteable is the classic slippery slope, viz. the Red Scare.
8:46

We're not going to control the pandemic!

It is a slaughter and not just a political dispute.

"The scraps of narcissism, the rotten remnants of conspiracy theories, the offal of sour grievance, the half-eaten bits of resentment flow by. They do not cohere. But they move in the same, insistent current of self, self, self."

User avatar
CoraSpia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9674
Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Capitalizt

Postby CoraSpia » Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:33 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:Free speech is good, except where it conflicts with national security. Then safety has to come first.

I wouldn't go down that line of reasoning. If the state has decided that the people are not able to handle certain pieces of information responsibly, do you really trust politicians with it?
GVH has a puppet. He uses it to post in regions and on the forums. The identity of this puppet will forever remain a mystery.

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Gutaiai
Secretary
 
Posts: 35
Founded: Apr 05, 2020
Libertarian Police State

Postby Gutaiai » Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:33 pm

Cordel One wrote:
Gutaiai wrote:Free speech is inherently important for the exchange of ideas.

Why censor "hate speech" or extremists when you can use your rights to speak freely as an invitation to mock and ridicule their ideas?

Anyone who argues otherwise is just asking for a slippery slope where the government silences all opposition under the pretext of "hate speech" and "radicals" and becomes extremely totalitarian.

The slippery slope is a logical fallacy.

Funny thing, because the slippery slope fallacy varies based on subject. And it just so happens that in the case of free speech, we already have precedent that proves the slippery slope exists.

If you want to properly point out a slippery slope fallacy, you should do it against an argument where such slippery slope is known to not exist. Otherwise you end up pointing out a fallacy that simply isn't there.
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Vetalia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13527
Founded: Mar 23, 2005
Corporate Bordello

Postby Vetalia » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:18 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
This tbh. Freedom of speech and the press is quite easily the most dangerous and destructive thing in our nation.

man i enjoy the new based wra


Didn't like my response to you though, apparently. Truth hurts.
Last edited by Vetalia on Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Economic Left/Right: 0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05

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Vetalia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13527
Founded: Mar 23, 2005
Corporate Bordello

Postby Vetalia » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:22 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:Free speech is good, except where it conflicts with national security. Then safety has to come first.


Sure but how is "national security" defined? Seems like you back Winnie the Flu Xi Jinping, the Tiananmen Square massacre, ethnic cleansing in Tibet and the rest of the Chicom crimes based on your signature as opposed to supporting the legitimate Chinese government, i.e. Republic of China in Taiwan over all of China.
Last edited by Vetalia on Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Economic Left/Right: 0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05

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Punished UMN
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1152
Founded: Jul 05, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:23 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:why? what's inherently good about freedom?


It's the natural, best state of human existence and deeply ingrained in us via millions of years of evolution.

Read Hobbes.
Still lurking in the community, but don't expect much engagement.
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Vetalia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13527
Founded: Mar 23, 2005
Corporate Bordello

Postby Vetalia » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:24 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
Vetalia wrote:
It's the natural, best state of human existence and deeply ingrained in us via millions of years of evolution.

Read Hobbes.


Look at hunter-gatherer societies.
Economic Left/Right: 0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05

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Punished UMN
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1152
Founded: Jul 05, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:25 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:Read Hobbes.


Look at hunter-gatherer societies.

Yeah, it's so free how they murder each other.
Still lurking in the community, but don't expect much engagement.
Rawlsian socialist and Constitutional Monarchist. Proud member of the Napoleon Bonaparte fandom.
I have borderline personality disorder, if I overreact to something, try to approach me after the fact and I'll apologize
Asexual man.

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Cekoviu
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16699
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Cekoviu » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:43 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:man i enjoy the new based wra


Didn't like my response to you though, apparently. Truth hurts.

nah i just don't want to get a wEeK vAcAtIoN for threadjacking right after i got off the last one
RWDT - REST IN POWER
David Hume fangirl, massive Tuvaboo, anti-imperialist, and Castroist socialist. Also a sex-negative SWERF, traditionalist SJW, and Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian.
/tʃɛ'koʊ.vi:.ju:/ (check-OH-vee-you)

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Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28157
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:52 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
Vetalia wrote:
It's the natural, best state of human existence and deeply ingrained in us via millions of years of evolution.

Read Hobbes.

the “state of nature” and the “social contract” are ahistorical bullshit that have no basis in reality.
Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

Kowani wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Also, you could quit being a condescending dick.
I could. But am I going to? Nah.
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