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NS MilReal Consultation Thread No. 12

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:52 pm

Altpeak wrote:but more about mindset and determination and willingness to press-home an attack.

The last time somebody tried elan vs machine guns and artillery how did it go?

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Postby Ideal Britain » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:54 pm

Do pilots (who are officers) commissioned from the ranks normally make better leaders than those commissioned straight out of civvy street?
Last edited by Ideal Britain on Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NS MilReal Consultation Thread No. 12

Postby Altpeak » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:00 pm

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Altpeak wrote:but more about mindset and determination and willingness to press-home an attack.

The last time somebody tried elan vs machine guns and artillery how did it go?


Where do you see me saying that a machine gun position can be carried purely by elan? I'm saying that in order to be shock troops, troops need to have a mindset and determination that means they will continue to press-home in an attack on a well-defended position, something which does normally come with heavy casualties. Nowhere did I say that troops could win purely through determination. All the determination in the world won't help if you can't use cover or fire and maneuver.

Ideal Britain wrote:Do pilots (who are officers) commissioned from the ranks normally make better leaders than those commissioned straight out of civvy street?


In the case of pilot, whilst I'm open to correction by someone who knows more about how airforces operate, it wouldn't matter, given his job is to fly rather than to lead.
Last edited by Altpeak on Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gallia- » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:12 pm

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Institutional-doctrinal inertia isn't changing in a time period as little as five years. It's more than likely that the entire MoD believes that the next war will not be one where Russia aggresses the Baltic states but where they'll have to go do the Afghanistan Reruntm, since that's exactly what Army 2020 has been about. Also did you not see the bit where it says "lmao we don't do attacks".


It's literally the opposite. They were really spooked by 2014 and what the Ukrainians said in 2015, so Army 2020 is mostly about fighting the Russians. This is what the 2015 SDSR update was all about.

What they should be preparing to do is fight the Scottish, or maybe riotous waves of boat people, but that's too far forward thinking I guess.

Since attacking quickly only really makes sense when the biggest danger is "staying in one place too long", it is sort of the inverse of Afghanistan where the biggest threat was moving, because the main threat was preplaced land mines (IED's) and prepared ambushes at chokepoints, but there was essentially zero meeting engagements or artillery because the Taliban had no tanks or MLRS. This makes reconnaissance and deliberate, careful movement more important because a wrong step can kill you and just running around will end up losing more guys than not. It's pretty much a hard counter to the more conventional idea of "bulling through" obstacles with as much speed and aggression as possible. When your biggest danger is from being spotted and someone on a radio calling in a fire strike from three MRL battalions 100 miles away on you, you generally need to accept that you're going to lose tanks and troops to occasional land mines or hidden ATGW or whatever.

Being unable to adapt to a new situation without appreciating it is not a uniquely British problem, nor is it particularly a problem to begin with, since you can't really plan for wars that you haven't learned about yet. Compare Chechnya 1 to Chechnya 2. Or 1941 to 1943. Armies go through periods of learning and rejuvenation, same as any other living organism (or rather, genealogical chains, since armies are less organisms and more offspring-parent relationship between generations of soldiers), and so they tend to adapt well enough as the situation calls for it, or get destroyed. Since the British Army still exists (at least in theory), we can assume they are still capable of learning. While it's entirely possible the British Army might be wiped out in a hypothetical future war with Russia, the British probably learned more about their ability to fight a war against the Russians in the future than the Ukrainians did from the British. In all honesty, it will not that it will help them that much in Hypothetical Future Russian Regional War Over 120 mi^2 in Estonia, since they aren't buying the things they need (mainly counter-artillery weapons), but it's helpful to know what to do at a small level like cross a bridge, since that is an easy problem to solve once you know what you need to do and the constraints of the issue.

Once the British were informed of the situation by Ukrainian troops, and the constraints of the problem, they ended up changing their tactics they were teaching to resemble that of the Cold War era, and it worked fine, but that was a few weeks or a month after this article came out I think.

Ideal Britain wrote:Do pilots (who are officers) commissioned from the ranks normally make better leaders than those commissioned straight out of civvy street?


no theyre too old their eyes have turned into eggs and their ears are perforated now because theyre the ripe old age of "26" oops

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Altpeak wrote:but more about mindset and determination and willingness to press-home an attack.

The last time somebody tried elan vs machine guns and artillery how did it go?


it worked OK

actually better than OK

really you can say it worked great


And of course there's something to be said about the intangibles: moral is to physical as 3 is to 1. While Germany materially amounted to the "best" troops of the war, no one considers them to be anything more than "losers" at best. Their worst troops (the Waffen-SS) are considered "elite" because of some intangible elements presumably, while their actual best (Ostfront Wehrmacht) are considered "lol germany lost both wars". The over-focus on physical, tangible factors probably had a real effect on Germany's inability to recover morally and spiritually from WW2 and why they're currently doing whatever it is they're doing.

By contrast, the Japanese, who were quite literally constantly losing after 1942, and trading at rates of up to 20:1 against (Philippine Sea), and 5:1 against even in their best (Okinawa) due to State Shinto death cultist beliefs, recovered almost completely and utterly in moral-spiritual terms after the 1960's. Perhaps a utterly futile, physically ("objectively") ineffective, and hopelessly romantic death ride by a battleship squadron, even (especially?) when it could be better used to defend the physical coastline, is the cost of mounting an insurmountable defense in the spiritual realm? Something must have inspired the Allies to treat Japan with the kid gloves whereas Germany was more or less drained of all collective confidence in its decisions for the rest of its existence. It's not like the Japanese weren't objectively doing the same things Germany did in Poland, just in China, but for some reason America gave Unit 731 a pardon and Mengele died in Argentina.

Anyway that's more a general statement than anything directed specifically re: elan.
Last edited by Gallia- on Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Postby Kazarogkai » Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:26 pm

Eukaryotic Cells wrote:I think that it depends on the exact mix of weapons you have within the battalion, the role the battalion is intended to play in the larger doctrinal context, local factors like terrain, etc.

Users of .50 caliber machine guns in the role you describe are modernizing them, and are looking into lighter weight ammunition. Weight is a significant issue here, but on balance I think you should probably retain them. Their long effective range, useful effect against a variety of targets (personnel, vehicles, structures, area targets, point targets, and so on), and crew portability are all desirable characteristics.


If by leg infantry you mean Motorized Infantry carried in on LUVs then I imagine you would be better off giving them directly to said infantry as vehicle mounts in a similar vein to how automatic grenade launchers are used rather than creating a dedicated Machine gun unit if possible. There they can use them directly in their best role as infantry support weapons.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:45 pm

West Bromwich Holme wrote:
Crookfur wrote:You could offer appliqué or integrated armoured cab kits for tactical trucks as most military manufacturers (like MAN and oshkosh) have done since the whole MRAP thing started.

Armoured saloons/limos/SUVs are also offered by most most high end car builders (or a partner customiser) these days and military wise these would be just for officers who are operating at almost political levels and pretty much sticking around offices/ HQs in urban areas.

If they need to go out in the field they would pretty much just be using whatever protected tactical vehicle is common to the rest of the army.


Could an armored truck work for military usage, perhaps like this:

Image

or maybe this sort of body:

Image

Not trying to picspam here.

I'm thinking, a 7.3 or 7.4-litre diesel engine could work in this sort of thing?


Yes.

For when you only have leaded gasoline.

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Postby Purpelia » Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:58 pm

Gallia- wrote:By contrast, the Japanese, who were quite literally constantly losing after 1942, and trading at rates of up to 20:1 against (Philippine Sea), and 5:1 against even in their best (Okinawa) due to State Shinto death cultist beliefs, recovered almost completely and utterly in moral-spiritual terms after the 1960's. Perhaps a utterly futile, physically ("objectively") ineffective, and hopelessly romantic death ride by a battleship squadron, even (especially?) when it could be better used to defend the physical coastline, is the cost of mounting an insurmountable defense in the spiritual realm? Something must have inspired the Allies to treat Japan with the kid gloves whereas Germany was more or less drained of all collective confidence in its decisions for the rest of its existence. It's not like the Japanese weren't objectively doing the same things Germany did in Poland, just in China, but for some reason America gave Unit 731 a pardon and Mengele died in Argentina.

Anyway that's more a general statement than anything directed specifically re: elan.

That some reason would be simple geopolitics. TLDR Japan was the new kid on the block. And not even a big one either. Sure, it was bullying the Chinese but by the 20th century that had become a right of passage for everyone with an army of note. And realistically Japan was no threat to anyone else, as proven by the fact they really the whole war was them loosing just really really slowly. Like, forget 1942. Japan was loosing in China since at least 1940. Sure they were taking ground and killing lots of Chinese but they were also expending resources and manpower they just didn't have.

Gerrmany meanwhile has been a plague upon Europe ever since Cesar saw off their invasion of Gaul and decided to stay. The German states, united, have in some form been a thorn in the European ambitions of England, France and Russia literally since before those countries even existed in the modern sense. And in WW2 Germany committed the ultimate sin of killing lots of soft squishy civilians belonging to the nations that won. Japan didn't. Sure, they killed lots of Chinese but again, China was not invited to split up the world after WW2.

So it is perfectly understandable why the stance of most nations that counted toward Japan was ambivalence where as toward Germany it was more like YOU CAN HAZ LIVE. Germany was simply a far greater threat to the 3-4 nations that actually mattered in the decision making. I mean, seriously, what was Japan going to do? Invade China again?
Last edited by Purpelia on Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Postby Gallia- » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:31 pm

More like because Japan's end of history was "get rich", which in the grand scheme of things is hard to fault since it's an achievable goal (there are always rich people), whereas Germany's end of history was "genocide all the Jews and Slavs and establish the 1000 year Reich over Ukrainian warrior-peasants" and Russia's end of history was "global galactic communism over the capitalist exploiters workers of the world RISE UP and overthrow Jim in HR off the two story roof into the hedges and have him break his ankle during the fall".

The latter two are easily falsified by means testing via "carpet bombing" or "four men arrested at SynCorp offices on Tuesday by Belview PD after a 911 call from a nearby driver stopping off the highway reported someone was being tossed off the roof by several middle aged white men in 'WW2 outfits', Belview police are holding them at Lindon County Jail with charges of aggravated battery and Deborah Smith, Lindon County District Attorney, promises to 'charge the fullest extent of Flyover law' against them".

The former is intensely difficult to falsify, especially in the face of Japanese fatalism of the time, and when offered an alternative route (trade with America vs. invade mainland China) becomes achievable anyway.
Last edited by Gallia- on Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Ideal Britain » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:18 am

Would someone build a military airport in a small village if it bordered another state?
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Postby New Vihenia » Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:55 am

Ideal Britain wrote:Would someone build a military airport in a small village if it bordered another state?


Why not ? Like i recalled that there is an airbase in Europe where the fighters taking off from it have to immediately take 90 Deg turn to avoid breaching airspace of neighboring nation.
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:04 am

Ideal Britain wrote:Would someone build a military airport in a small village if it bordered another state?

Gatow Airfield in the Berlin district of Gatow was used after 1945 by the RAF even though it was within spitting distance of the reds...
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Postby Crookfur » Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:17 am

Ideal Britain wrote:Would someone build a military airport in a small village if it bordered another state?

Only if they absolutely needed to and there was no where else more suitable.
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Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:22 am

Crookfur wrote:
Ideal Britain wrote:Would someone build a military airport in a small village if it bordered another state?

Only if they absolutely needed to and there was no where else more suitable.

Thank you for replying
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:00 am

Hrstrovokia wrote:Can I ask opinions on this? I've done a config for a platoon in a Mech Inf unit. It's based off using Soviet/Russian/Non-NATO equipment.

[x3 Rifles Squads composed of 8 - x1 Squad Leader - AK-105 + RPG-26, x1 Senior Rifleman - AK-74M w/GP-34 + RPG-26, x1 Rifleman - AK-74M w/GP-34 + RShG-2, x1 Grenadier - AK-105 + RPG-7V2 [RPG], x1 Grenadiers Assistant - AK-74M + OG-7V/PG-7VL/PG-7VR rounds, x1 Squad Automatic - RPK-74M + RShG-2 [LMG], x2 Vehicle Crew]

[x1 Weapons Squad composed of 8 - x1 Squad Leader - AK-105, x1 ATGM Gunner - AK-105 + 9K115-2 Metis-M1 [ATGM], x2 ATGM Assistants - AK-105 + 9M131M/9M131FM rounds, x1 Gunner - PKM [GPMG] w/Glock 17, x1 Gunners Assistant - AK-105 + PKM ammo, x2 Vehicle Crew]

[x1 Plt HQ composed of 6 - x1 Plt Leader - AK-105, x1 Plt Sergeant - AK-74M w/ GP-34, x1 Medic - AK-105, x1 Gunner - PKM [GPMG] w/Glock 17, x1 Gunners Assistant - AK-105 + PKM ammo, x1 Marksman - SVDM w/Glock 17]


Are there two few marksmen? The Mech Inf Battalion would have a dedicated Sniper platoon (SV-98, OSV-96, KSVK). The HQ & Services Battalion also has one. plus 3 more SVDK-equipped marksmen in a Heavy Weapons platoon of the Mech Inf Battalion.

As with everything: it depends. A relevant example: The Soviets in Afghanistan found that the number of snipers they had was woefully inadequate on the basis of the kind of war they were needing to fight there, so they needed to triple their number as a result.
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Postby Mitheldalond » Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:32 am

New Vihenia wrote:
Ideal Britain wrote:Would someone build a military airport in a small village if it bordered another state?


Why not ? Like i recalled that there is an airbase in Europe where the fighters taking off from it have to immediately take 90 Deg turn to avoid breaching airspace of neighboring nation.

Why wouldn't they just take off in the other direction?

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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:33 am

Mitheldalond wrote:
New Vihenia wrote:
Why not ? Like i recalled that there is an airbase in Europe where the fighters taking off from it have to immediately take 90 Deg turn to avoid breaching airspace of neighboring nation.

Why wouldn't they just take off in the other direction?

Well if the headwind is in the direction of the other guy...

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Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:11 am

Does a man raised in mountainous areas and accustomed to mountaineering from a young age make a better infantryman (Private to Lance-Corporal)?
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Postby Dayganistan » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:25 am

This is a structure I came up with for my light infantry/airborne/commando (think 75th Ranger Regiment or Royal Marines more than Green Berets here) units up to brigade level. Is there anything off about it? I feel like I'm missing some weapons and I'm not sure I need machine gun teams on the weapons squads if the rifle squads are also getting a GPMG on top of two SAWs. I also want to have integrated JTACs which I think should be attached at the platoon level but I'm not sure about that.

Rifle Section - 11 men
1x squad leader
1x machine gun team (gunner, ammo bearer)
2x fireteams (team leader, automatic rifleman, grenadier, rifleman)

Weapons Section - 11 men
1x squad leader
2x machine gun teams (gunner, ammo bearer)
2x anti tank teams (gunner, ammo bearer)
1x 60mm mortar team (gunner, ammo bearer)

Rifle Platoon - 38 men
1x platoon leader
1x platoon 2IC
1x platoon medic
1x designated marksman
1x RTO
2x rifle squad
1x weapons squad

Weapons Platoon - 34 men
1x platoon leader
1x platoon 2IC
1x platoon medic
1x RTO
1x 81mm mortar section (9 men, 3 tubes)
1x HMG section (9 men, 3 gun teams)
1x ATGM section (9 men, 3 missile teams)
1x automatic grenade launcher team (3 men)

Company - 113
1x company commander
1x company 2IC
1x RTO
2x rifle platoon
1x weapons platoon

Battalion - 633
1x battalion commander
1x battalion 2IC
Signals platoon (30 men)
Logistics company (100 men)
Medical company (75 men)
120mm mortar section - (15 men, 3 tubes)
Anti aircraft section - (9 men, armed with MANPADS)
Sniper platoon - (31 men, organized into 9 man sections consisting of 3 man teams, plus HQ section of platoon leader, platoon 2IC, platoon medic, RTO)
Pioneer platoon - (31 men, organized as 3 rifle sections without machine gun teams, plus HQ section of platoon leader, platoon 2IC, platoon medic, RTO)
3x companies

Brigade - 2601
1x brigade commander
1x brigade 2IC
Signals company (100 men)
3x battalions
1x logistics battalion (600 men)
Last edited by Dayganistan on Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Atheris » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:39 am

Gallia- wrote:More like because Japan's end of history was "get rich", which in the grand scheme of things is hard to fault since it's an achievable goal (there are always rich people),

Cool motive. Still genocide.
Last edited by Atheris on Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:43 am

Atheris wrote:
Gallia- wrote:More like because Japan's end of history was "get rich", which in the grand scheme of things is hard to fault since it's an achievable goal (there are always rich people),

Cool motive. Still genocide.

This is an infantile analysis of an effortpost.

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Postby Ideal Britain » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:45 am

Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:Does a man raised in mountainous areas and accustomed to mountaineering from a young age make a better infantryman (Private to Lance-Corporal)?

Do they?
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Postby Atheris » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:45 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Atheris wrote:Cool motive. Still genocide.

This is an infantile analysis of an effortpost.

It was also a quite obvious joke.

Edit: If you want my big-boy analysis, then here you go:

Japan's goal in WW2 wasn't just to "get rich". It was one of their goals, sure, but not the primary goal. Japan's goals were

A. Japanese racial domination of China, Korea, and Southeast Asia
B. Expansion for natural resources
C. Domination over Asian economies and trade
D. Supposed "revenge" against the West
E. Japanese-dominated pan-Asianism.

Japanese doctrine, especially after 1940, was incredibly racist. Japanese soldiers were ordered to commit genocide against Chinese populations (Nanjing, Dachang, Mengcun, etc.) and other supposed "inferior races" (Bataan, Manila Massacre, Kalagong, etc.). When Japan began losing the war, they implemented a scorched earth policy on Chinese civilians that literally went by the motto "Burn All, Kill All, Loot All", as in burn all farms, kill all Chinese, loot all buildings - and that's not mentioning Unit 731 and their horrible experiments (which include chemical experimentation, experimentation to see how fast hypothermia kills someone, etc.).

Operation Cherry Blossoms at Night was a planned attack on the US West Coast by using fleas infected with the Bubonic Plague to start a pandemic in the mainland United States.

In no way was Japan's only goal to "get rich". Saying that was Japan's only goal in WW2 is not only hilariously inaccurate but also shows a lack of research on the OP's part.
Last edited by Atheris on Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gallia- » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:54 am

Atheris wrote:
Gallia- wrote:More like because Japan's end of history was "get rich", which in the grand scheme of things is hard to fault since it's an achievable goal (there are always rich people),

Cool motive. Still genocide.


That's not what Abe's approved history curricula told me.

Obviously genocide wasn't the point of Japan's ideal end of history, it was just a means to an end. The British, the Americans, and the Belgians were all doing it, or had done it, and they were rich as hell. Why trade with Native Americans when you can throw them in camps and steal their land for gold and iron? Same thing as China or Malaya: why trade with the Legates or English when you can steal Manchuria or Malaya instead? You don't. That said, if America had brains it could have established trans-Pacific Partnership with the Co-Prosperity Sphere and became the Co-Prosperity Ocean and crushed revisionists like Stalin and Hitler. Too bad it took about 40 years for America to get that. ):

Japan copying the latest get rich quick scheme of Westerners and failing is basically its entire history from the Perry Expedition to the SCAP Era.
Last edited by Gallia- on Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Dayganistan
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Posts: 1197
Founded: May 02, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Dayganistan » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:55 am

Ideal Britain wrote:
Champagne Socialist Sharifistan wrote:Does a man raised in mountainous areas and accustomed to mountaineering from a young age make a better infantryman (Private to Lance-Corporal)?

Do they?

The "does x make someone a better soldier?" questions are getting genuinely annoying. These are all factors that have no bearing on someone's ability to accurately fire a rifle, react to enemy fire, and to suppress, close with and destroy the enemy.

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The New California Republic
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Posts: 33725
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:57 am

Dayganistan wrote:
Ideal Britain wrote:Do they?

The "does x make someone a better soldier?" questions are getting genuinely annoying. These are all factors that have no bearing on someone's ability to accurately fire a rifle, react to enemy fire, and to suppress, close with and destroy the enemy.

Does wearing camo underwear make someone a better soldier?
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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