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by Red Maw » Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:34 am
Numero Capitan wrote:Not the problem. The problem is that, if used to its full potential, update bending could effectively make some occupations liberation-proof if raiders hold the perfect update bend region (which again, they have the advantage in terms of securing it). I'm not aware of any other game mechanic that has the potential to give one side a guaranteed win, and combined with BC ROs it is even more OP.
Not sure if you're deliberately missing the point here. The whole point was that tight triggers are unusable and Refuge was suggesting defenders should jump before the update bend region (i.e. use super-wide triggers). Its not a worse-case scenario per se, its assuming that raiders will refine this tactic to a greater extent and considering what that progression looks like in terms of r/d gameplay.
The fact of the matter is that triggering would become so unreliable that the best tactic for liberations would just be wild guesses - which isn't an option a defender culture built on refinement and improvement would embrace.
Probably not a perfect analogy, but its like us telling you that if you don't like how fast we have got at chasing, maybe you should jump into regions outside of update and hope we don't spot you.
Personally I won't be training any new officers to do all of the above, I'll be training them to infiltrate and sabotage because it will have a higher chance of success.
by Mingulay Isle » Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:43 am
Devi wrote:Roavin wrote:First, the likelihood of finding an acceptable region is much lower. In the situation described in OP, the raiders owned two bender regions, one of which was exactly before the target region. Given just over 23k regions in the world and assuming an even, linear distribution of whatever hash is used to calculate position (a generous assumption), that requires ~17k regions to be founded after every big raid to have only a 50% chance of finding an appropriate bender region. That's 170 defenders using 100 puppets each for a 50-50 "maybe we'll find one".
Can we leave the disingenuous arguments out of Technical, please?
Leaving aside Refuge's point that the bending region was a good four regions out, rather than immediately before- which would bring the listed odds down *drastically*, even being merely four regions out is far from guaranteed for any given op unless raiders were to mass-found regions themselves in search of a suitable fit.
Mallorea and Riva wrote:I'm unaware of the rule ever having been enforced in such a manner.
Frisbeeteria wrote:First off, this isn't a technical question. It's a moderation question.
Puppet flooding is one of those nebulous rules that's hard to define. Since we added Regional Officers and gave them ejection and suppression powers, we've not been enforcing puppet flooding rules so much.It's situational. Stay out of situations where people complain, and you're fine.
- If you move ten or a hundred puppets into your own puppet dump region, no one cares. Have fun with your puppet army.
- If you move ten or a hundred puppets into a region you share with like-minded friends and no one complains, we don't care.
- If you move ten or twenty puppets into an active region over a 5 minute period without talking to anyone first, we'll probably get complaints. We'll send a Voice of Mod to what we think is your main nation (usually, your current WA member).
- If you move four puppets a day into an active region without ever talking to anyone, without responding to telegrams, without responding to VOM telegrams, abandoning the nations and never logging in to them again ... in short, generally being a nuisance ... we start puppetsweeping until you take the hint. (and yes, this is a current case)
Red Maw wrote:Numero Capitan wrote:Not the problem. The problem is that, if used to its full potential, update bending could effectively make some occupations liberation-proof if raiders hold the perfect update bend region (which again, they have the advantage in terms of securing it). I'm not aware of any other game mechanic that has the potential to give one side a guaranteed win, and combined with BC ROs it is even more OP.
Ultra-tight triggers may become harder on large occupations, perhaps, but I doubt it will be “liberation proof”.
by Refuge Isle » Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:24 am
Unibot III wrote:The joke is I could have stopped that Nazi refound in 2009 lawfully if I had just asked a few friends to help me. I didn't know the rules, so I puppet bombed illegally instead. The ethical difference between these two scenarios is if I had asked for help I'd have been relying on the cooperation of players versus one player nuisancing a region disproportionately.
by Dawn Denac » Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:43 am
by Kuriko » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:17 am
by Refuge Isle » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:22 am
Kuriko wrote:There's one huge downside to this "update bending" technique that I myself want to point out, that nobody here has yet dug into. This is causing, and will cause, thousands upon thousands of nations to be created in order to do. We saw that at least 3,100 nations were created by the raiders in the South Pacific raid, and now we're seeing a bigger increase due to both sides jumping on nation creation.
by Kuriko » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:28 am
Refuge Isle wrote:Kuriko wrote:There's one huge downside to this "update bending" technique that I myself want to point out, that nobody here has yet dug into. This is causing, and will cause, thousands upon thousands of nations to be created in order to do. We saw that at least 3,100 nations were created by the raiders in the South Pacific raid, and now we're seeing a bigger increase due to both sides jumping on nation creation.
Almost all of my 1,500 nations used, which would account for slightly less than half that number, were pre-existing switchers built up for more than a year's time.
Oaks and Maples, being card farms and TBH puppets
Snow intended to be EPSA puppets, still a little inactive, alas
Nebula being Trieltics puppets
A variety of joke puppets made for those purposes.
So the only odd one out is Ocean which was made for an entirely different reason, but convenient to use in order to contribute to this project
by Refuge Isle » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:34 am
Kuriko wrote:That doesn't discount the fact that nation creation is just going to keep going up due to this, since many players don't have the same amount of puppets as you or Sakana. I still want to partake in R/D, but with a two hour major update I can't. I'm sure a lot of people are in the same boat as I, on both sides.
by Kuriko » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:43 am
Refuge Isle wrote:Kuriko wrote:That doesn't discount the fact that nation creation is just going to keep going up due to this, since many players don't have the same amount of puppets as you or Sakana. I still want to partake in R/D, but with a two hour major update I can't. I'm sure a lot of people are in the same boat as I, on both sides.
Granted Saka creates puppets for any reason as well as no reason at all, I think all of the ones that she used in this event were created for the purposes of card farming (in this case, for our Pergamon pull event). In my opinion the vast number of puppets created to exploit the card system is far more to blame for the large world nation populations -- and a great deal to do with my departure from that area of the game. 9003's spreadsheet of puppets and their relative tallies can provide insight to this issue.
by Miss Bad Life Choices » Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:00 pm
Kuriko wrote:Refuge Isle wrote:Granted Saka creates puppets for any reason as well as no reason at all, I think all of the ones that she used in this event were created for the purposes of card farming (in this case, for our Pergamon pull event). In my opinion the vast number of puppets created to exploit the card system is far more to blame for the large world nation populations -- and a great deal to do with my departure from that area of the game. 9003's spreadsheet of puppets and their relative tallies can provide insight to this issue.
I don't think you're getting my point. Card farmers aside, those who don't hold large amounts of puppets in the R/D game will be creating them to either cause, or counter, update bending. Which will increase world population further, which will make admin keep the update length longer. Which will prevent players from participating, on both sides.
by RiderSyl » Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:23 pm
Kuriko wrote:I don't think you're getting my point. Card farmers aside, those who don't hold large amounts of puppets in the R/D game will be creating them to either cause, or counter, update bending. Which will increase world population further, which will make admin keep the update length longer. Which will prevent players from participating, on both sides.
by Praeceps » Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:27 pm
Miss Bad Life Choices wrote:Birb (NPA) - 3,105
by Miss Bad Life Choices » Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:34 pm
by Aurum Raider » Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:58 pm
Roavin wrote:It's already an uphill battle for defenders, for a number of reasons (pilers vs. updaters, BC ROs, etc.); there is no longer a way to have acceptably accurate/precise moves into a region.
The North Polish Union wrote:Additionally, virtually all founderless regions are viewed as falling under the defenders' allegedly protective purview. This is a form of colonialism that the great imperialist regions of NS history could only dream of.
by Mingulay Isle » Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:19 pm
Aurum Raider wrote:Roavin wrote:It's already an uphill battle for defenders, for a number of reasons (pilers vs. updaters, BC ROs, etc.); there is no longer a way to have acceptably accurate/precise moves into a region.
My apologies if I don't cry you a river. Raiders relentlessly fight an uphill battle on this site - the game literally changes around you to make raiding more difficult. ROs were introduced to give regions better ways to defend themselves, you lose WA Delegate when you resign, etc, etc.
Update bending takes literal hours of moving puppets around in preparation for less than a half second of payoff.
What on earth makes you think that something on the site should change?
by Dawn Denac » Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:24 pm
Mingulay Isle wrote:Aurum Raider wrote:My apologies if I don't cry you a river. Raiders relentlessly fight an uphill battle on this site - the game literally changes around you to make raiding more difficult. ROs were introduced to give regions better ways to defend themselves, you lose WA Delegate when you resign, etc, etc.
Update bending takes literal hours of moving puppets around in preparation for less than a half second of payoff.
What on earth makes you think that something on the site should change?
We shouldn't have to spend literal hours just to get a trigger. It is fundamentally absurd and unreasonable to ask anyone to invest that kind of time unless you're offering them a paid staff position.
by Refuge Isle » Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:25 pm
Mingulay Isle wrote:We shouldn't have to spend literal hours just to get a trigger. It is fundamentally absurd and unreasonable to ask anyone to invest that kind of time unless you're offering them a paid staff position.
by Unibot III » Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:38 pm
Aurum Raider wrote:Roavin wrote:It's already an uphill battle for defenders, for a number of reasons (pilers vs. updaters, BC ROs, etc.); there is no longer a way to have acceptably accurate/precise moves into a region.
My apologies if I don't cry you a river. Raiders relentlessly fight an uphill battle on this site - the game literally changes around you to make raiding more difficult. ROs were introduced to give regions better ways to defend themselves, you lose WA Delegate when you resign, etc, etc.
Update bending takes literal hours of moving puppets around in preparation for less than a half second of payoff.
What on earth makes you think that something on the site should change?
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
by Mingulay Isle » Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:58 pm
Dawn Denac wrote:Mingulay Isle wrote:We shouldn't have to spend literal hours just to get a trigger. It is fundamentally absurd and unreasonable to ask anyone to invest that kind of time unless you're offering them a paid staff position.
Didn't Roavin point out Defenders exploited this in the past? But now that raiders use it, it's unfair?
by Aurum Raider » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:32 pm
Unibot III wrote:Are you equating the work it takes to organize ninety updaters with moving puppets? I find this "uphill battle" framing bizarre.
Unibot III wrote:Regional Officers also came as a great advantage to invaders with little advantage for defenders.
Mingulay Isle wrote:We shouldn't have to spend literal hours just to get a trigger. It is fundamentally absurd and unreasonable to ask anyone to invest that kind of time unless you're offering them a paid staff position.
The North Polish Union wrote:Additionally, virtually all founderless regions are viewed as falling under the defenders' allegedly protective purview. This is a form of colonialism that the great imperialist regions of NS history could only dream of.
by Iris and Metis » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:50 pm
In this case it may make more sense to not trigger off of nations controlled by an enemy faction, but to locate or create a trigger that is under defender control.
Perhaps I’m missing something (I promise I don't do it on purpose), but could you not use that wide trigger, calculate how long the bend takes, and estimate when you call the go based on that?
Defenders can use "update bending" but as soon as raiders utilize it, it must be solved by the technical staff or the raiders need to be puppet swept or etc etc.
raiders spend weeks refining triggers for stealth raids, and hours every day preparing triggers for tag raids.
by Dawn Denac » Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:37 pm
Iris and Metis wrote:In this case it may make more sense to not trigger off of nations controlled by an enemy faction, but to locate or create a trigger that is under defender control.
Oh you mean like we usually do? I wonder why we didn't do that in this case. Ohh, because of U P D A T E B E N D I N G
Sorry but I'm completely tired of going in circles on this one. If all the control is in raider hands then 'creating a trigger that is under defender control' isn't possible/useful.Perhaps I’m missing something (I promise I don't do it on purpose), but could you not use that wide trigger, calculate how long the bend takes, and estimate when you call the go based on that?
That would be fine in the right environment, but not in the circumstances we are referring to. We managed to trigger a liberation four hours into a ridiculously random and broken update (it was ultratight and unsuccessful but we still figured it out). If it was possible to calculate an accurate trigger we'd do it. As Roavin says, this post is because of an update where we applied numerous workarounds and calculations but "the brutality of the bending (combined with just ridiculous early-update variance) killed another jump, there was just nothing I could point to. Absolutely nothing, for the first time ever. And that's basically what brought out this post."Defenders can use "update bending" but as soon as raiders utilize it, it must be solved by the technical staff or the raiders need to be puppet swept or etc etc.
As far as I am aware defenders have only ever used it to give themselves a controlled and accurate trigger, not to fuck up other peoples triggering. The raider use of it goes a step further.
Defenders could use it more aggressively, some are very prepared to. I personally think its gross way for r/d to go, and will ultimately make it much more unfulfilling for both sides and exclude/deter a lot of people. We know from experience that someone will push every tactic to its extremity. The extremity of this is basically breaking update for the other side - it may well not happen, but I'm just trying to shine a light on this and suggest that maybe none of us want that going forward and now is the time to nip it in the bud.raiders spend weeks refining triggers for stealth raids, and hours every day preparing triggers for tag raids.
This just sounds like gross incompetence to me, why would you spend 'weeks' 'refining triggers'
by Mingulay Isle » Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:56 pm
Dawn Denac wrote:Can't tell if you're trolling or not. You lost one lib to being update bent, not a technical problem. Again ironic that once raiders use something defenders employ, it suddenly needs to change and gameplay is broken, and the evil raider scum we are need to be punished for our insolence.
by Aurum Raider » Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:06 pm
Mingulay Isle wrote:Also, in any other game you'd be thrice banned for exploiting, griefing and spam. So, can you stop acting so put upon when people come to suggest that maybe, just maybe asking people to spend four hours spamming moves is simply unreasonable?
The North Polish Union wrote:Additionally, virtually all founderless regions are viewed as falling under the defenders' allegedly protective purview. This is a form of colonialism that the great imperialist regions of NS history could only dream of.
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