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by Free Federal States » Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:25 am
by Free Federal States » Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:29 am
by Free Federal States » Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:41 am
by Nobel Hobos 2 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:59 am
Free Federal States wrote:Idk man I’m not a genius, I just want Russia to leave us alone
by Free Federal States » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:03 am
by Ansarre » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:45 am
The Sovereign Realist State wrote:My advice for Ansarre is to stop watching CNN and start watching Russia Today.
by Atheris » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:49 am
by Shofercia » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:13 pm
Free Federal States wrote:I think the US should respond to Russia by deploying forces directly against Russian allies. We mobilize our reserves and tell the Russians to get the hell out of Syria. We give them one week to pack up and leave. At the end of that time, we kick the living crud out of Assad, and if any Russians are there, we warned them and they had a reasonable amount of time to withdraw. We increase arms sales to Ukraine, deploy more military advisors there, and maybe advocate for them to join NATO.
Here’s why I advocate this:
1) Russia needs to lose prestige AT THE HANDS OF THE UNITED STATES so we can prove that we are still a worthy ally, and that Russia is not.
2) In the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Russians blinked first. They might blink first again. If they don’t, fighting a war against Russia ONLY INSIDE OF SYRIA is infinitely preferable to fighting them on a larger scale. We can simply issue new rules of engagement for the conflict that’s already ongoing and then launch a limited military operation.
3) Syria is preferable to intervene against than Iran. Syria is a smaller country with a smaller population, and fewer forces will be needed to hold it without an insurgency popping up (1:20 soldier to civilian ratio according to my history teacher a few years ago). Additionally, Syria has factions already on the ground who would want to ally with us if we were to intervene. Lastly, the country has been at war a long time. When our troops march into Damascus, the Syrians will be very tired and even hardliners might simply accept peace, choosing to push their agenda politically instead of militarily. When we’ve won, we let our Syrian allies create the replacement government and don’t do ANYTHING to try and create a system that looks remotely like ours. That just doesn’t work (cough cough, Iraq and Afghanistan). The end goal is to establish an anti-Russian regime that the people of Syria can live with, not a democracy.
If all goes well, the Russians will lose allies and prestige, and we might gain some of those. Russia will probably be very angry, but they started it by having our troops killed. Then, we use careful diplomacy to reduce tension. Longstanding anger can contribute to larger wars in the future (Franco-Prussian War leftover resentment contributed to World War I) but if managed correctly, we can demonstrate “the stick” by beating Assad and offer Russia “the carrot” if they change their ways and start contributing to world peace. We have to make it very clear that we will not roll over for Putin, but also very clear that we are willing to be their friends if a mutually beneficial relationship is desired by them.
Edit: I am aware that this is an extremely risky plan, and is probably a little bit extreme. However, I strongly believe that we have to demonstrate that we are better than the Russians. I feel like they are constantly getting the better of us, and this has embarrassed us and deteriorated our position as a world power. If we are to maintain international security and democracy, a little bloodshed now to stop a bully is better than a lot of bloodshed later (think Neville Chamberlain’s appeasement policy and you’ll get what I mean)
by Shofercia » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:22 pm
Free Federal States wrote:Why would I want to do that?
1) Russia loses allies
2) Russia loses prestige
3) If Russia chooses to fight, we beat them and they lose more prestige (and also some troops to make up for the ones they had killed)
4) America’s value as an ally is put on display and people see that we’re still worth keeping around, even after four years of Trump
What would we do after taking out Assad’s government? That’s explained.
-Allow local allies to take the lead in creating the new government
-We don’t impose an American-style democracy on Syria. If that’s what the Syrians want as a replacement, that’s what happens, but our goal is removing Russia and creating a stable Syria, not a democratic one
Edit: At the same time, I should mention that I support solving this diplomatically, but this is a strategy that I think will force Russia’s hand and might get them to quit doing inflammatory things
Edit 2: oh wait, you’re asking about fighting them in a larger war aren’t you? (Sry read over that first couple times). I don’t want to fight Russia in a larger war. That is not worth the potential cost. However, beating Russia in a small war potentially reaffirms American strength and shows that we’re not cowards like we seem to be acting. If we lose a small war, it’s just one more embarrassment on top of all the others and can be blamed on any number of factors.
Free Federal States wrote:And for the record, I’m only talking about the war scenario because it’s more fun to discuss than the others. As I said before, ideally there’s a diplomatic solution, but I pretty much draw the line at killing US troops. It’s not okay that they can go unpunished. Russia doesn’t seem to care about diplomacy anyway - only shows of force (which they always seem to outdo us with)
Also I’m not John Bolton. I’m not saying we should fight them just because we haven’t had a war in a while. As mentioned above, Russia only sees military might on display as a gauge of power. This is (at its core) a really serious and violent scare tactic. We do this, and Russia will think twice before messing with us.
Free Federal States wrote:That is a very fair weakness to point out, and there is no counter. The US can’t force Syrians to get along with each other, but the primary goal is beat Russia. Frankly, I don’t really care what happens in the Middle East so long as it doesn’t hurt Americans. Russian dominance potentially hurts Americans (in the form of attacking US allies, creating a massive global war in which thousands of Americans die, maybe everyone if it goes nuclear) way more than a bunch of newly emerging Syrian terrorist cells or whatever the result is (A few horrible and brutal attacks against civilians where the casualties are probably ~300 at worst).
by Baltenstein » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:56 pm
The Sovereign Realist State wrote:Baltenstein wrote:Nervermind the fact that RT's own journos quit their jobs while live on-air because there is a human limit to how much agitprop you can parrot with a straight face.
I know. If only it paid as much as MSNBC...
So, when will Baltenstein and Ansarre get together to found a neocon region?
May I suggest [Arsenal of Democracy]?
by Gormwood » Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:02 pm
Baltenstein wrote:The Sovereign Realist State wrote:
I know. If only it paid as much as MSNBC...
So, when will Baltenstein and Ansarre get together to found a neocon region?
May I suggest [Arsenal of Democracy]?
What kind of non-sensical response is that? That's not even a Whataboutism, that's just...weird.
by Ansarre » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:40 am
Atheris wrote:Ansarre wrote:"Hey don't listen to free and independent media, listen to Kremlin funded propaganda!" You're kidding, right?
I wouldn't call CNN free and independent.
The best choice is to read your news from a mostly unbiased source, like The Economist, or Washington Post (which is what I use).
by Loben The 2nd » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:45 am
by Kowani » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:02 am
Ansarre wrote:Atheris wrote:I wouldn't call CNN free and independent.
The best choice is to read your news from a mostly unbiased source, like The Economist, or Washington Post (which is what I use).Washington PostJeff Bezos is good if you avoid their opinion pieces.. I regularly go to the Guardian,Financial Timesmultibillion Japanese company,Foreign Affairsmouthpiece for the elite,the EconomistItalian multibillionaires, andthe TelegraphBritish billionaires. All good sources.CNNAT&T definitely is independent though, unlike RT which is directly controlled by the Kremlin.
by Red Intria » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:53 pm
by Slavakino » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:21 am
Loben The 2nd wrote:I dunno, we gave the afghans weapons in the 80s to kill Soviet soldiers, seems a bit tit for tat.
by Shofercia » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:58 am
Cisairse wrote:NYT is independent, just get your news from them
by Atheris » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:09 am
Shofercia wrote:Cisairse wrote:NYT is independent, just get your news from them
NYT's record:
Supported War in Iraq
Supported War with Libya
Supported Escalation in Ukraine
Supported Taking a Bigger Role in Syria
Supported Bolton's Book, which called for War with Iran, without even trying to discredit that part of it
I think the New York Times can independently assess how the military industrial complex's balls taste, since NYT constantly has said balls in their mouth.
by Cisairse » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:46 am
Shofercia wrote:Cisairse wrote:NYT is independent, just get your news from them
NYT's record:
Supported War in Iraq
Supported War with Libya
Supported Escalation in Ukraine
Supported Taking a Bigger Role in Syria
Supported Bolton's Book, which called for War with Iran, without even trying to discredit that part of it
I think the New York Times can independently assess how the military industrial complex's balls taste, since NYT constantly has said balls in their mouth.
by Gormwood » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:48 am
Cisairse wrote:Shofercia wrote:
NYT's record:
Supported War in Iraq
Supported War with Libya
Supported Escalation in Ukraine
Supported Taking a Bigger Role in Syria
Supported Bolton's Book, which called for War with Iran, without even trying to discredit that part of it
I think the New York Times can independently assess how the military industrial complex's balls taste, since NYT constantly has said balls in their mouth.
Feel free to explain how NYT's reporting did any of that.
by Cisairse » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:49 am
by Gormwood » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:50 am
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