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by Team Leo » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:38 am
by WayNeacTia » Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:00 am
Team Leo wrote:-snip-
RiderSyl wrote:You'd really think that defenders would communicate with each other about this. I know they're not a hivemind, but at least some level of PR skill would keep Quebecshire and Quebecshire from publically contradicting eac
wait
by Honeydewistania » Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:12 am
Wayneactia wrote:Team Leo wrote:-snip-
It is very apparent you didn't bother to take the five minutes to read through the thread before spouting off. If you actually take the time to read, you will note that Jakker has made it clear that he isn't going to submit. Also, you seem to have an inordinate amount of knowledge for a nation that is so very new and with so very few forum posts. Perhaps you could do us all a favor and post from your main next time, instead of hiding behind such an obvious puppet.
Alger wrote:if you have egoquotes in your signature, touch grass
by The Ambassadors Reception » Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:41 am
Praeceps wrote:A much better measurement of support would be to count the WA votes that each supporter and opponent of the resolution had. Of course, that wouldn't have fit your narrative.
Praeceps wrote:I will say it's rather concerning that you were so easily aware of so many fascist regions that you were embassied to.
Praeceps wrote:Jakker didn't miscount, only undercounted.
Praeceps wrote:All Jakker had to do was establish sufficient fascist regions embassied to your region—which he did.
Praeceps wrote:The narrative that just because the proposal did not pass (much less even be submitted) that Jakker did not achieve his goals is false.
Drop Your Pants wrote:What utter shite.
Praeceps wrote:Given the embassies are closed,
Praeceps wrote:I think this resolution did its job.
by Jar Wattinree » Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:08 am
The Ambassadors Reception wrote:I'm unfamiliar with Forest's voting practices, so am unable to say what happens with Ransium's 101 votes.
by Sail Nation » Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:16 am
by Aurum Raider » Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:36 am
The Ambassadors Reception wrote:Could you better express exactly what your concern is here?
Are you concerned that someone who can write a script that identifies all 'new' regions that are not tagged 'fascist' is also able to analyse which of their embassies are tagged fascist? That makes no sense to me.
The North Polish Union wrote:Additionally, virtually all founderless regions are viewed as falling under the defenders' allegedly protective purview. This is a form of colonialism that the great imperialist regions of NS history could only dream of.
by Black Hawks Matter » Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:57 am
Team Leo wrote:Firts of all how and when has TE shown nazism or fascism. I have checked there RMB like 4 times and I saw nothing discriminative. so how EXACTLY would you prove it. And I know that even if someone said something discriminative I know TE would take action and ban the discriminator or whatever
by Lord Dominator » Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:13 am
Jar Wattinree wrote:The Ambassadors Reception wrote:I'm unfamiliar with Forest's voting practices, so am unable to say what happens with Ransium's 101 votes.
Ransium votes in accordance with the majority of Forest. Typically speaking, Forest doesn't usually concern itself with the SC, with few exceptions. Lord Dominator can give you a better statistic than I.
by Jakker City » Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:13 am
by The Ambassadors Reception » Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:28 am
Jakker City wrote:With the embassies now closed, I have marked the thread header to make it clearer that this will not be pursued further at this time. Congrats all!
by Bhang Bhang Duc » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:22 am
Wayneactia wrote:Team Leo wrote:-snip-
It is very apparent you didn't bother to take the five minutes to read through the thread before spouting off. If you actually take the time to read, you will note that Jakker has made it clear that he isn't going to submit. Also, you seem to have an inordinate amount of knowledge for a nation that is so very new and with so very few forum posts. Perhaps you could do us all a favor and post from your main next time, instead of hiding behind such an obvious puppet.
Pierconium wrote:I see Funk as an opportunistic manipulator that utilises the means available to him to reach his goals. In other words, a nation after my own heart.
RiderSyl wrote:If an enchantress made it so one raid could bring about world peace, Unibot would ask raiders to just sign a petition instead.
Sedgistan wrote:The SC has just has a spate of really shitty ones recently from Northumbria, his Watermelon fanboy…..
by Marxist Germany » Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:05 pm
Black Hawks Matter wrote:Team Leo wrote:Firts of all how and when has TE shown nazism or fascism. I have checked there RMB like 4 times and I saw nothing discriminative. so how EXACTLY would you prove it. And I know that even if someone said something discriminative I know TE would take action and ban the discriminator or whatever
As said in the proposal, the region the Embassy has embassies open with fascist regions. Thus, due to guilt by association, it follows that the Embassy must pay for having diplomatic relations with fascists and giving said fascists legitimacy and an platform to spread their hate through the Embassy's RMB. Even though we currently cannot easily find fascist posts on the RMB (if we find no evidence of fascism, we must try harder and look more), the potential of there being a fascist post in the future justifies the actions taken against the Embassy. We cannot let the fascists just be. The threat of fascist indoctrination through this online game is just too high, and we can't let indoctrination happen. That's what I was told. As has been already brought up more than once in this thread, look at history. The Nazis could not have done what they did if good people just stepped in and stopped it. The same must be done to the Embassy and other fascistic elements in NS before it escalates into something worse. The potential for that is always there, so we must always be vigilant and proactive.
by The Ambassadors Reception » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:24 pm
Aurum Raider wrote:The concern is you literally knew you had fascist embassies open, exactly how many, who they were, and didn't do anything about it.
Aurum Raider wrote:Something you seem to have a lot of trouble grasping is that a lot of NS' gameplayers are very openly actively anti-fascist. Raiders, defenders, and GCR militaries will happily put aside practically anything to raze a fascist region to bedrock.
Aurum Raider wrote:While your embassy policy is appeasement (which - by the way, 1939 called and wants to let you know doesn't work)
Black Hawks Matter wrote:Even though we currently cannot easily find fascist posts on the RMB (if we find no evidence of fascism, we must try harder and look more)
Aurum Raider wrote:the majority people condemning you here don't care about the fascists complaints whatsoever, and are more than happy to make victims out of them.
Aurum Raider wrote:Other regions - while under far more scrutiny than you - are constantly criticized for having fascist embassies open.
Aurum Raider wrote:Why on earth did you think you'd escape the exact same criticism just because you have 4,000 more embassies than them?
by Praeceps » Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:32 pm
The same could very well be said to you. I'm just clearing up some false statements that were made.The Ambassadors Reception wrote:Praeceps, three pages back, I announced that we were changing policy, and actively closing embassies tagged fascist. I'm unclear as to what you are hoping to gain here by continuing to post on this thread.
Praeceps wrote:A much better measurement of support would be to count the WA votes that each supporter and opponent of the resolution had. Of course, that wouldn't have fit your narrative.
Since you're apparently too lazy to do that analysis yourself, let me help you out. Let's look just at the delegates and potential delegates to save time.
Jakker could collect additional votes in favour if he became point on a pile
McMasterdonia, who expressed support for the proposal, technically has 1282 votes. I'm not too familiar with TNP rules, but from this, it seems the delegate votes are typically cast in accordance with the majority of TNP voters. I don't know which way they would vote. The legally elected delegate is allowed to contradict the TNP voters. However, as I understand it, Prydania is the delegate elect, and we haven't heard their opinion here. So there is an element of doubt as to which way these votes would be cast.
Similarly, I believe Kuriko's 776 votes are cast in accordance with democratic principles, and so cannot be relied on as a vote against.
I'm unfamiliar with Forest's voting practices, so am unable to say what happens with Ransium's 101 votes.
Vippertooth currently heads a pile of 37 votes, but some of these appear to be from TNP, so again, it's difficult to call, despite Vippertooth having brokered a deal.
And then there is Sail Nation with 9 votes.
So unfortunately, no, counting the WA votes of each supporter and opponent adds no clarity to the situation, and is not a much better measurement of support.
The concern was how you knew there were so many fascist embassies and found them so easily. o.OPraeceps wrote:I will say it's rather concerning that you were so easily aware of so many fascist regions that you were embassied to.
Could you better express exactly what your concern is here?
Are you concerned that someone who can write a script that identifies all 'new' regions that are not tagged 'fascist' is also able to analyse which of their embassies are tagged fascist? That makes no sense to me.
Praeceps wrote:Jakker didn't miscount, only undercounted.
Jakker counted 12 fascist embassies, one of which clearly states on it's WFE that it has an anti-fascist stance. That is miscounting.
If I have 11 apples and an orange, and tell you I have 12 apples, then I am miscounting the number of apples.
Praeceps wrote:All Jakker had to do was establish sufficient fascist regions embassied to your region—which he did.
No. If we had closed those 12 embassies (one unjustifiably), presumably this proposal should have gone away. That would have left us still carrying a large number of fascist embassies, which would defeat the ostensible purpose of this proposal. If an action like this is to be effective, it should be done properly. I'll expand on that point in a telegram.
Praeceps wrote:The narrative that just because the proposal did not pass (much less even be submitted) that Jakker did not achieve his goals is false.
Unless Jakker's goal was to fool you into thinking he was motivated by anti-fascism, I think DYP expressed it most eloquently:Drop Your Pants wrote:What utter shite.
Praeceps wrote:Given the embassies are closed,
Nope. We maintain our embassy with KAISERREICH.
Praeceps wrote:I think this resolution did its job.
See DYP quote above.
by Black Hawks Matter » Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:49 pm
Marxist Germany wrote:Black Hawks Matter wrote:As said in the proposal, the region the Embassy has embassies open with fascist regions. Thus, due to guilt by association, it follows that the Embassy must pay for having diplomatic relations with fascists and giving said fascists legitimacy and an platform to spread their hate through the Embassy's RMB. Even though we currently cannot easily find fascist posts on the RMB (if we find no evidence of fascism, we must try harder and look more), the potential of there being a fascist post in the future justifies the actions taken against the Embassy. We cannot let the fascists just be. The threat of fascist indoctrination through this online game is just too high, and we can't let indoctrination happen. That's what I was told. As has been already brought up more than once in this thread, look at history. The Nazis could not have done what they did if good people just stepped in and stopped it. The same must be done to the Embassy and other fascistic elements in NS before it escalates into something worse. The potential for that is always there, so we must always be vigilant and proactive.
OOC: "When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he has to say" -George Martin.
The logical gymnastics you're playing to come to the conclusion that fascist embassies = the next hitler is astonishing. Furthermore, guilt by association is a logical fallacy, not a sound argument.
The Ambassadors Reception wrote:Black Hawks Matter makes light of the situation (thank you for bringing humour to the thread, it has been highly entertaining), but there is truth in this. For the 21 or so months that I have been in the embassy, almost all the RMB posts have been inane chat. If you can link a post where I agree to concede Sudetenland to a fascist, please share.
I have had more conversations with fascists in the past few days than I did in the previous 21 months. I contacted about 80 of the 88 embassies before I closed them, politely explaining my reasons for closing. You would probably consider my approach as appeasement. Seven of those embassies chose to remove the tag. It's not a huge success story, but it's a small step that evidences that people are open to change if you engage in dialogue.
by Lord Dominator » Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:18 pm
Praeceps wrote:That's really not the point of my argument which is that liberations can do their job without passing...
by Praeceps » Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:11 pm
by The Ambassadors Reception » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:23 pm
Praeceps wrote:I'm just clearing up some false statements that were made.
Praeceps wrote:You're going off on what might happen compared to what should happen.
Praeceps wrote:You should have noticed during your research that McMasterdonia is also the Minister of World Assembly Affairs for The North Pacific and decides (with the Delegate) the recommendation of the government. Since apparently I'm too lazy to do any analysis, how about you go take a look and find out how frequently that the Delegate ended up voting contrary to the recommendation of the region?
Praeceps wrote:The concern was how you knew there were so many fascist embassies and found them so easily. o.O
Praeceps wrote:Perhaps you should read what Jakker wrote. He explicitly listed "some of". That literally implies that his list is not exhaustive. It seems you may have misread that part.
Jakker may or may not have had more fascist embassies that he was aware of but did not bother to list. At the end of the day, any fascist embassies you held would be pointed out.
Praeceps wrote:Unless Jakker's goal was to fool you into thinking he was motivated by anti-fascism, [...]
Well, if that's the case, that goal succeeded too.
Praeceps wrote:We maintain our embassy with KAISERREICH.
Are they a fascist region? My understanding is they have been working to move away from that. If not, I'd kindly ask Jakker to make some changes and then submit this proposal.
Praeceps wrote:Fascist regions should not be advertised in the resolution.
Praeceps wrote:I think listing the regions in the OP of your post (but not the resolution itself) is sufficient. So I'd remove the "including" and everything following it including the following clause regarding KR.
Honeydewistania wrote:KR are attempting reforms. Unless they go back to their old ways, we should start being more accepting.
by Paleoconservative Citizens » Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:28 pm
by Kromerov » Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:23 am
Paleoconservative Citizens wrote:Devi wrote:For the sake of factuality, TBH has and had no interest in keeping SECFanatics as a trophy, as evidenced by their withdrawal from the region
Does this explain why they've just raided SECFanatics again and closed embassies with all the regions, including my puppet storage region?
by Praeceps » Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:18 am
The only one who ever cast doubt on your character was yourself through your actions.The Ambassadors Reception wrote:Praeceps wrote:I'm just clearing up some false statements that were made.
What a coincidence!
In the days since we changed policy in The Embassy, I have been called a liar on this thread, a Nazi appeaser, and I have you trying to cast doubt upon my character by your use of the word "concerning".
Should in this context meaning what is most likely to happen regardless of opinions taking into account the various stakeholders influencingPraeceps wrote:You're going off on what might happen compared to what should happen.
*Pauses, and looks around the world at the presidents and prime ministers currently in power, and the policies they are implementing, then looks at you incredulously:*
Are you seriously suggesting that looking at how people should vote is a good indicator of how they actually vote? Dear child, you have much to learn.
We have moved on from analysing hard facts about peoples' expressed opinions, through the realms of what is uncertain, and now into the land of what we wish for. Wishful thinking is not a sound basis for any analysis.
I graciously accept your apology.Praeceps wrote:You should have noticed during your research that McMasterdonia is also the Minister of World Assembly Affairs for The North Pacific and decides (with the Delegate) the recommendation of the government. Since apparently I'm too lazy to do any analysis, how about you go take a look and find out how frequently that the Delegate ended up voting contrary to the recommendation of the region?
My apologies, but there are limits to the amount of effort I'm willing to put in to retrospectively investigate a hypothetical scenario about a proposal that is not going to be submitted, let alone voted upon.
The repeated condescension on your part in referring to me as a child is quite endearing and is an excellent display of maturity.Praeceps wrote:The concern was how you knew there were so many fascist embassies and found them so easily. o.O
Let me reassure you, dear child, that having a basic grasp of how to use the API is not inherently evil. It may look like witchcraft and dark magic, but I assure you it is not.
Your telegram was irrelevant to the matter being debated. And it was far more appropriate to forward on to the government of The North Pacific.Praeceps wrote:Perhaps you should read what Jakker wrote. He explicitly listed "some of". That literally implies that his list is not exhaustive. It seems you may have misread that part.
Jakker may or may not have had more fascist embassies that he was aware of but did not bother to list. At the end of the day, any fascist embassies you held would be pointed out.
You have already read the telegram I sent you on the subject of listing embassies. If you would like to discuss it in detail, you are welcome to post a copy of the telegram here, and we can discuss it point by point. Otherwise, I suggest you move on from persuing this track of discussion.
Ah yes, there is definitely no possible way that I got new information between those posts. Regardless of whether KR is fascist or not, an inclusion by name of their region would have been appropriate.Praeceps wrote:
Are they a fascist region? My understanding is they have been working to move away from that. If not, I'd kindly ask Jakker to make some changes and then submit this proposal.
On the first page of this thread, you ask Jakker to move all references to "fascist" regions from the proposal itself, and into the OP. At no point do you suggest that KR be removed from the list on the basis that they are reforming. Unless Jakker added their name to the list after your post, you appear to be quite happy to allow their name to be associated with fascism in the OP.
Evidence:Praeceps wrote:Fascist regions should not be advertised in the resolution.Praeceps wrote:I think listing the regions in the OP of your post (but not the resolution itself) is sufficient. So I'd remove the "including" and everything following it including the following clause regarding KR.
You may have "understood" that KR "have been working to move away" from fascism, but you made no attempt whatsoever to have their name, and the association, removed from the OP. If I was in KR, I would wonder why the hell we were bothering.
I stated in an earlier post to someone:
"If you really want to fight fascism on the internet, recognise that you win by dialogue and persuasion, not petty point scoring. It's not about winning executive delegacies. It's about winning hearts and minds."Honeydewistania wrote:KR are attempting reforms. Unless they go back to their old ways, we should start being more accepting.
Honeydew gets it. Take a lesson from them.
by Honeydewistania » Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:23 am
Alger wrote:if you have egoquotes in your signature, touch grass
by Sail Nation » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:42 am
by The Ambassadors Reception » Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:28 pm
Praeceps wrote:The only one who ever cast doubt on your character was yourself through your actions.
Praeceps wrote::roll: Should in this context meaning what is most likely to happen regardless of opinions taking into account the various stakeholders influencing
Praeceps wrote:If anyone has anything to learn, I imagine that you should start learning about the major regions and their politics. Feel free to message me, I'd be glad to help out.
Praeceps wrote:The repeated condescension on your part in referring to me as a child is quite endearing and is an excellent display of maturity.
Praeceps wrote:Your telegram was irrelevant to the matter being debated.
Praeceps wrote:Regardless of whether KR is fascist or not, an inclusion by name of their region would have been appropriate.
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