LWDT IX: Discussing the Left From All Engels

[The New California Republic]

Generally speaking I don't see the harm caused by pornography, so a blanket ban doesn't seem warranted at all.

The harm is that it is virtually impossible to regulate as an industry if it is legal

Can you demonstrate that by necessity leads to harms on a scale that warrants a blanket ban?

and abuses of sex workers is common in the industry even in countries where it is legal.

Blanket ban though still seems unwarranted even with that.

[Cisairse]

The harm is that it is virtually impossible to regulate as an industry if it is legal, and abuses of sex workers is common in the industry even in countries where it is legal.

Addiction to it and it fucking with ones brain, especially if you're younger, is also becoming a more and more well documented thing afaik.

You can get addicted to anything.

[Cekoviu]

Banning most things does not work (examples include alcohol, marijuana, other drugs, undocumented immigration, etc...).

Nor do I think pornography should be banned. We should really decriminalize and regulate all consensual sex work.

Virtually no "sex work" is consensual as of now.

To play devil's advocate, the idea behind banning something isn't quite exactly to reduce the rate of consumption to 0%, but to just reduce it all. Hot take here, but to that point prohibition actually worked to that goal to an extent.

Yes, my brother, you are learning!

Generally speaking I don't see the harm caused by pornography, so a blanket ban doesn't seem warranted at all.

- Professional pornography is coercive by nature and so is essentially selling videos and photos of people (disturbingly frequently homeless people, drug addicts, et al.) being raped.
- Amateur pornography cannot be regulated and therefore you cannot be certain that any particular piece is truly consensual. A percentage in the double digits (can't remember exactly what) of amateur pornography is nonconsensual and/or includes underage people.
- On the consumer side, using pornography can produce inaccurate and unhealthy ideas about sex and makes it easier for people to avoid getting in relationships because they can be sexually satisfied by the interwebz.

[Mirjt]

Banning most things does not work (examples include alcohol, marijuana, other drugs, etc...).

Nor do I think pornography should be banned. We should really decriminalize and regulate all consensual sex work.

The problem with that is that as an industry, it is very difficult to regulate without strong controls on the places it can be accessed. And again, and I am tired of making this point so often in this thread: criminalizing something is not about your ability to enforce it, it is about putting sanctions on the creation of it. Banning murder did not end murder, that doesn't mean we should scrap the criminal code.

That is a good point, however in some cases banning something will just make the situation worse. We should be trying to minimum the things that we ban to things that are genuinely harmful and to things that a ban will actually help people (for example a ban on abortion just led women to do underground abortions which put her in dangerous and vulnerable situations or threatened her life due to lack of safety, banning abortions only slightly reduced abortion rates and they made the situation so much worse - that alone is a good reason not to ban abortions, not even taking into account the woman's right to her body - a ban on abortions would do no good).

I don't think pornography and sex work is something that needs to be or should be banned, I think they should be decriminalized where they are criminalized and then well-regulated.

To play devil's advocate, the idea behind banning something isn't quite exactly to reduce the rate of consumption to 0%, but to just reduce it all. Hot take here, but to that point prohibition actually worked to that goal to an extent.

That is very true, prohibition did reduce the rate of alcohol consumption and it also reduced the crime rate. People often only think that the crime rate went up because of the increase of organized crime and violence, but other alcohol related crime - such as alcohol induced domestic abuse, actually cause the overall crime rate to decrease. Though I am not convinced that the prohibition of alcohol actually met its intended goals or that the reduction in alcohol consumption was that great or that alcohol should be banned. I say that as someone who has never tried alcohol (I am 24 years old), and never wants to try alcohol, and who believes we should levy a high sin tax on alcohol.

[South Odreria 2]

Addiction to it and it fucking with ones brain, especially if you're younger, is also becoming a more and more well documented thing afaik.

You can get addicted to anything.

This deserves either a hurr durr or one of tHeSe

[Cisairse]

You can get addicted to anything.

This deserves either a hurr durr or one of tHeSe

You're talking to someone who supports the legalization of recreational heroin. I will take every opportunity to dab on paternalists.

[Mirjt]

I am not going to engage in the topic of banning pornography any further, as it is making it uncomfortable.

[South Odreria 2]

This deserves either a hurr durr or one of tHeSe

You're talking to someone who supports the legalization of recreational heroin. I will take every opportunity to dab on paternalists.

hurr durr legalize heroin

[Mirjt]

You're talking to someone who supports the legalization of recreational heroin. I will take every opportunity to dab on paternalists.

hurr durr legalize heroin

If the topic is the banning of drugs on the other hand. I am also in favor of the decriminalization of almost all drugs, and the establishment of safe injection sites and increased funding to drug addiction treatment and safety guidelines for self-medication and recreation drug use while encouraging discussion with physicians.

[Duvniask]

This deserves either a hurr durr or one of tHeSe

You're talking to someone who supports the legalization of recreational heroin. I will take every opportunity to dab on paternalists.

Are you gonna go full libertarian and say that seat belt laws are slavery, too?

[Washington Resistance Army]

Unironically declare drug cartels to be terror organizations and go full force on them

[The New California Republic]

Professional pornography is coercive by nature and so is essentially selling videos and photos of people (disturbingly frequently homeless people, drug addicts, et al.) being raped.

That's probably a problem with the coercion that is inherent in the need to sell one's labour, and can thus be attributed as a problem with capitalism rather than pornography in and of itself.

Amateur pornography cannot be regulated and therefore you cannot be certain that any particular piece is truly consensual. A percentage in the double digits (can't remember exactly what) of amateur pornography is nonconsensual and/or includes underage people.

Unless I see some stats I'm going to estimate those double digits are low, i.e. 10%.

On the consumer side, using pornography can produce inaccurate and unhealthy ideas about sex and makes it easier for people to avoid getting in relationships because they can be sexually satisfied by the interwebz.

Sure, it can, but any conceivable thing can possibly have a negative influence on one's ideas, so that argument isn't exactly rock solid.

[Cisairse]

You're talking to someone who supports the legalization of recreational heroin. I will take every opportunity to dab on paternalists.

hurr durr legalize heroin

[Cekoviu]

This deserves either a hurr durr or one of tHeSe

You're talking to someone who supports the legalization of recreational heroin. I will take every opportunity to dab on paternalists.

yOuRe TaLkInG tO sOmEoNe WhO sUpPoRtS tHe LeGaLiZaTiOn Of ReCrEaTiOnAl HeRoIn

[The Black Forrest]

You're talking to someone who supports the legalization of recreational heroin. I will take every opportunity to dab on paternalists.

Are you gonna go full libertarian and say that seat belt laws are slavery, too?

They still doing that? I thought they moved to motorcycle helmets are slavery.

[South Odreria 2]

hurr durr legalize heroin

If the topic is the banning of drugs on the other hand. I am also in favor of the decriminalization of almost all drugs, and the establishment of safe injection sites and increased funding to drug addiction treatment and safety guidelines for self-medication and recreation drug use while encouraging discussion with physicians.

Safe injection sites and guidelines and discussions don’t actually do anything except make people feel good about other people dying

[Duvniask]

Are you gonna go full libertarian and say that seat belt laws are slavery, too?

They still doing that? I thought they moved to motorcycle helmets are slavery.

I'm not referring to a current case, but such ridiculousness is no doubt with us, still.

[The New California Republic]

hurr durr legalize heroin

Snip

Can you please spoiler that image, it is a bit large.

[Salus Maior]

Are you gonna go full libertarian and say that seat belt laws are slavery, too?

They still doing that? I thought they moved to motorcycle helmets are slavery.

Cleaning your room because your mum told you to is slavery.

[Northern Davincia]

You're talking to someone who supports the legalization of recreational heroin. I will take every opportunity to dab on paternalists.

Are you gonna go full libertarian and say that seat belt laws are slavery, too?

Yes.

[Cekoviu]

Are you gonna go full libertarian and say that seat belt laws are slavery, too?

Yes.

we know what y*u think

[Neanderthaland]

Are you gonna go full libertarian and say that seat belt laws are slavery, too?

Yes.

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The harm is that it is virtually impossible to regulate as an industry if it is legal

Can you demonstrate that by necessity leads to harms on a scale that warrants a blanket ban?

and abuses of sex workers is common in the industry even in countries where it is legal.

Blanket ban though still seems unwarranted even with that.

Sex work is non-consensual, so.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Can you demonstrate that by necessity leads to harms on a scale that warrants a blanket ban?


Blanket ban though still seems unwarranted even with that.

Sex work is non-consensual, so.

Why don't feminists object to sex work? This is a job that materialize female

[Cisairse]

Can you demonstrate that by necessity leads to harms on a scale that warrants a blanket ban?


Blanket ban though still seems unwarranted even with that.

Sex work is non-consensual, so.

Only as it exists today.