Natalism/Antinatalism: Is Life Worth Living?

[Ayytaly]

Not if you're an endangered tribe of short people, and your women suddenly start finding the tall sons of colonizers attractive.

you really have a sore spot that's hurting dont you

Racial discrimination and heightism are kind of correlated.

[Carvio Saikesenassia]

you really have a sore spot that's hurting dont you

Racial discrimination and heightism are kind of correlated.

being mentally stable and not losing your shit after a woman rejects you while calling her a heightist (or muttering about it on forums for that matter) hurts your odds more than your vertical disadvantage

[Albrenia]

Being short is likely the least of my troubles when it comes to attracting a mate, heh.

[Purple Rats]

you really have a sore spot that's hurting dont you

Racial discrimination and heightism are kind of correlated.

Heightism? I think there is some kind of discrimination about someones height sure, but we can not compare that to racism, really.

Also, I know people who are way taller than avarage, and they also feel bad, so it's not really about being short. It's more like people just don't really treat others, who are not similar to them, the same.

But still, comparing it to racism?

[Carvio Saikesenassia]

the funny thing about complaining about height is that while it's definitely a relevant factor of attractiveness for women, it seems to be a dealbreaker mostly on dating sites only -- and if you're going to base requirements from a place where there's a 4:1 man to woman ratio as well as insufferable people, your odds would be likely not much higher if you were a couple inches taller anyway

[Purple Rats]

And as opposite way, as short woman it is super annoying if people are talking about me as "cute little girl" or when greeting and hugging, they kind of lift me up.

I'm also considering to kick them on the balls then. Which I haven't done, but I have stopped hugging some people for greeting now.

[Kernen]

I never claimed there was no double standard. Just that the double standard isn't so momentous as to be insurmountable.

Not if you're an endangered tribe of short people, and your women suddenly start finding the tall sons of colonizers attractive.

It sucks when people have personal preferences. But this really isn't the topic.

[US-SSR]

1) Is life worth living for you?
Yes.

2) What makes life worth living for you?
My loved ones and the happy moments I have.

Ditto, ditto.

3) Would you want to live forever if you got to choose when you stopped aging?

Gets to the heart of the matter. I wouldn't care to have 5-10 years added to the end of my life; but if I could get 5-10 years between the ages of, say, 42 and 43... But no, I wouldn't choose to live forever, and it frankly astonishes me that so many people who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy afternoon do. I have no desire to outlive my enjoyment of life.

4) Is it right to procreate, acknowledging the state of the world?

The state of the world being that it is full of beings with deep-seated drives to procreate, the question of "right" doesn't really enter into it. Humans, nonhuman animals, plants, eukaryotes, you name it, will continue to procreate. Humans are perhaps unique in that they sometimes choose not to procreate; but then again that assumes free will is not just an illusion, topic for another thread perhaps...

5) Do you intend to procreate? If you've already done so, do you plan on doing so again?

No thanks. My track record on that one is one pregnancy scare that turned out to be endometriosis.

[Ultimate Destructive Fighting Nation]

1) Is life worth living for you?
Yes.

2) What makes life worth living for you?
My loved ones and the happy moments I have.

Ditto, ditto.

3) Would you want to live forever if you got to choose when you stopped aging?

Hell, I would mind living forever. But, would I love like to live another life? Yes. I would be ready to go through Hell and fire, to risk even death it’s self. All I would need the assurance that I would be five or something. To get away from the torment I feel and to be younger..There is nothing I wouldn’t do for it, nothing at all. Just to know for sure I’d be younger.

[Ayytaly]

Racial discrimination and heightism are kind of correlated.

being mentally stable and not losing your shit after a woman rejects you while calling her a heightist (or muttering about it on forums for that matter) hurts your odds more than your vertical disadvantage

How tall are you?

Not if you're an endangered tribe of short people, and your women suddenly start finding the tall sons of colonizers attractive.

It sucks when people have personal preferences. But this really isn't the topic.

It is when you're a natalist

[Sundiata]

It's definitely an exercise in selflessness but these things can be done: rooms can be shared, birthdays can be celebrated, time can be scheduled. I am a family-centric person so I'd definitely enjoy the process.

Sharing rooms is terrible for childhood development. Having more kids than you can feed is also pretty bad.

Why do you say that the former is bad for development?

[Kernen]

being mentally stable and not losing your shit after a woman rejects you while calling her a heightist (or muttering about it on forums for that matter) hurts your odds more than your vertical disadvantage

How tall are you?

It sucks when people have personal preferences. But this really isn't the topic.

It is when you're a natalist

Then my response is that it sucks when people have preferences, huh?

Sharing rooms is terrible for childhood development. Having more kids than you can feed is also pretty bad.

Why do you say that the former is bad for development?

Because children benefit from their own space, especially to sleep. I suspect I would have made genuine attempts to harm my sibling if we shared a room.

[The Free Joy State]

Sharing rooms is terrible for childhood development. Having more kids than you can feed is also pretty bad.

Why do you say that the former is bad for development?

Actually there is evidence that its not just sharing rooms that can place children from large families at a disadvantage, when compared to those from smaller families. Research suggests the children of larger families may grow up in a less enriched environment. Research suggests that children also suffer from a 3% drop in parental investment (time spent at meals, talking, reading together) with the birth of each younger child. Behavioural problems are also reported to increase with the birth of each new child. Larger families may also impact educational attainment:

For each additional child born, the researchers found that the average amount of education the kids in the family received fell by -.13 years. And older children whose parents had twins ended up with nearly half a year less of education than other families.

The research showed that these effects weren’t a temporary side effect of the birth of a younger sibling, but persisted through childhood and into later life -- resulting in lower education, lower earnings, more criminal behavior and more teenage pregnancies.

One proffered explanation is that "family resources become "diluted" as family size increases and the result is the various developmental deficits reported by researchers."

[Kernen]

Why do you say that the former is bad for development?

Actually there is evidence that its not just sharing rooms that can place children from large families at a disadvantage, when compared to those from smaller families. Research suggests the children of larger families may grow up in a less enriched environment. Research suggests that children also suffer from a 3% drop in parental investment (time spent at meals, talking, reading together) with the birth of each younger child. Behavioural problems are also reported to increase with the birth of each new child. Larger families may also impact educational attainment:

For each additional child born, the researchers found that the average amount of education the kids in the family received fell by -.13 years. And older children whose parents had twins ended up with nearly half a year less of education than other families.

The research showed that these effects weren’t a temporary side effect of the birth of a younger sibling, but persisted through childhood and into later life -- resulting in lower education, lower earnings, more criminal behavior and more teenage pregnancies.

One proffered explanation is that "family resources become "diluted" as family size increases and the result is the various developmental deficits reported by researchers."

But noooo, its selfless and wonderful to sacrifice for new babies.

Tell you what, my younger sibling is not worth the .13 years of education lost.

[Purple Rats]

Sharing rooms is terrible for childhood development. Having more kids than you can feed is also pretty bad.

Why do you say that the former is bad for development?

If someone needs to share a room you put them into situation where they always have to force themselves to be with people, and can't work with their own thoughts. People need privacy. Sometimes they (even them most extroverted people) just want to have time for their own, when they can just figure out things for themselves, read, do art, study for school etc.

It's not always as quality time, when you need to share your room with someone. I shared my room with my sister, when we were kids.
At some point there were even three kids in same room, luckily I don't remember that time.
Part time of it was nice to have someone close, but it was also really annoying. Specially to her, as she was older and I disturbed her quite much I assume. If people have separated rooms, they can still grow together, as go to each others room, spend time etc.
Having alone time, with shared room, is way more difficult.

[Ethel mermania]

Actually there is evidence that its not just sharing rooms that can place children from large families at a disadvantage, when compared to those from smaller families. Research suggests the children of larger families may grow up in a less enriched environment. Research suggests that children also suffer from a 3% drop in parental investment (time spent at meals, talking, reading together) with the birth of each younger child. Behavioural problems are also reported to increase with the birth of each new child. Larger families may also impact educational attainment:

For each additional child born, the researchers found that the average amount of education the kids in the family received fell by -.13 years. And older children whose parents had twins ended up with nearly half a year less of education than other families.

The research showed that these effects weren’t a temporary side effect of the birth of a younger sibling, but persisted through childhood and into later life -- resulting in lower education, lower earnings, more criminal behavior and more teenage pregnancies.

One proffered explanation is that "family resources become "diluted" as family size increases and the result is the various developmental deficits reported by researchers."

But noooo, its selfless and wonderful to sacrifice for new babies.

Tell you what, my younger sibling is not worth the .13 years of education lost.

You must have a fun Thanksgiving dinner.

[Kernen]

But noooo, its selfless and wonderful to sacrifice for new babies.

Tell you what, my younger sibling is not worth the .13 years of education lost.

You must have a fun Thanksgiving dinner.

I do. With the family I built and not the biological family I cant stand.

[Ethel mermania]

You must have a fun Thanksgiving dinner.

I do. With the family I built and not the biological family I cant stand.

You are not the only one I know to say that.

[Kernen]

I do. With the family I built and not the biological family I cant stand.

You are not the only one I know to say that.

I should hope not. Nobody ought be bound to biological family who harma them merely because they feel that is the only family they think they can have. Gotta boost that signal.

[Purple Rats]

You are not the only one I know to say that.

I should hope not. Nobody ought be bound to biological family who harma them merely because they feel that is the only family they think they can have. Gotta boost that signal.

I agree. There is tradition in our family to gather every Christmas. My parents, my sisters, their families. My aunt and her husband, and my cousins, with their families. + Grandparents from mother side.

it's exhausting, as there is so many people, and quite often these nights just end up with arguing over life values. As "Hey, let's all gather and have nice family time over christmas".... few glasses of alcohol later- "you know what I think about politics".

Terrible.

And some people have really toxic family members also. So I don't really get why someone should spend time with their family only because of blood. Do it, if you enjoy it, and don't if it bothers you.

[Kernen]

I should hope not. Nobody ought be bound to biological family who harma them merely because they feel that is the only family they think they can have. Gotta boost that signal.

I agree. There is tradition in our family to gather every Christmas. My parents, my sisters, their families. My aunt and her husband, and my cousins, with their families. + Grandparents from mother side.

it's exhausting, as there is so many people, and quite often these nights just end up with arguing over life values. As "Hey, let's all gather and have nice family time over christmas".... few glasses of alcohol later- "you know what I think about politics".

Terrible.

And some people have really toxic family members also. So I don't really get why someone should spend time with their family only because of blood. Do it, if you enjoy it, and don't if it bothers you.

Theres nothing quite like having your folks hate, with genuine and visceral malice, your spouse.

[Purple Rats]

Theres nothing quite like having your folks hate, with genuine and visceral malice, your spouse.

That does sound terrible.

I have a feeling that my grandmother seriously dislikes (not sure 'hate', but 100% dislike) me. I tried to ask my mom, what's going on, and she said that it's because I speak what's on my mind, and it's not really reserved lady-like.
And then there is of course my "uncle-in-law" (is that a word in english? My aunt husband?) who is right wing, homophobic, racist and always turns any topic to just spread his views. And if he speaks (and yells), it's not a problem, because he is a man, and older. But if I speak, then I am spoiled and impolite and should know my manners and so on...

And I kind of feel alone there, because nobody wants to piss off that guy (and grandma) so it just end up me being mocked and yelled at from his side.
And of course other views as well. I can't even eat there normally without people lecturing me how dumb it is, what I eat. (while I try to avoid the the topic, as only purpose I go there is to spend time with my grandfather)

[The Free Joy State]

I do. With the family I built and not the biological family I cant stand.

You are not the only one I know to say that.

IMO, it's not even a matter of disliking your family. I was born into a great family. I love my parents and I loved my brother.

But we weren't wealthy enough to support siblings ad infinitum and my parents did not have time enough that -- had I had multiple siblings -- they'd have been able to extend equal time, attention and resources to each, and thus ensured each could avoid the multiple pitfalls of large families (one of my parents is the product of a family of the size the OP talks of so wistfully; I do have an idea of what I'm talking about).

[Albrenia]

I'm lucky in that my immediate family are pretty damn awesome, but some of the extended family are the sort of people so immensely toxic that I don't even keep in contact with them anymore.

[Ayytaly]

Actually there is evidence that its not just sharing rooms that can place children from large families at a disadvantage, when compared to those from smaller families. Research suggests the children of larger families may grow up in a less enriched environment. Research suggests that children also suffer from a 3% drop in parental investment (time spent at meals, talking, reading together) with the birth of each younger child. Behavioural problems are also reported to increase with the birth of each new child. Larger families may also impact educational attainment:

For each additional child born, the researchers found that the average amount of education the kids in the family received fell by -.13 years. And older children whose parents had twins ended up with nearly half a year less of education than other families.

The research showed that these effects weren’t a temporary side effect of the birth of a younger sibling, but persisted through childhood and into later life -- resulting in lower education, lower earnings, more criminal behavior and more teenage pregnancies.

One proffered explanation is that "family resources become "diluted" as family size increases and the result is the various developmental deficits reported by researchers."

But noooo, its selfless and wonderful to sacrifice for new babies.

Tell you what, my younger sibling is not worth the .13 years of education lost.

Sell them instead