UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

[Parti Ouvrier]

Firstly, you're deluding yourself if you think Starmer will win a general election, and even if he did, Labour's shift back to the right would ensure working class disappointment and demoralisation of working class voters, paving the way for 5 more years of right-wing Tories again when the Starmer led Labour government is up for re-election. In other words, the most you'd achieve is a stop gap, and a pathetic one at that.

So what makes him 100% unelectable then?

I think you're looking at this the wrong way, let's go back a little, it was Gordon Brown that decided to campaign alongside Tories for a No vote (they should have boycotted the referendum), on the Scottish question, where did it get Labour? The result was Labour lost Scotland, the Tory strategy worked to split the working class and Labour vote, and this happened again in 2016. Class lines were blurred again and recently Starmer even called for another referendum, and was part of the reason for doing badly in the election, this is your supposed tactical genius, good luck with that! Although, I have to say, I don't subscribe to the electability illusion anyway, its a road to opportunism and concessions.

[Parti Ouvrier]

It is the height of foolishness to declare that a particular candidate "cannot win" when we know nothing of what the faultlines of a future election will be, and consequently even less of the particular platform on those issues that the candidate will adopt.

Clearly the candidates tend towards particular wings of the party and Starmer's milquetoast economics are not encouraging to those of us who think more fundamental economic change is required to address the Tory and even New Labour economic legacies.

I may even go so far to say that if the Tories keep up their shift towards increased social spending I might find it difficult to choose between the parties if Starmer chooses to go all-in on economic centrism to the point where the red of Labour is no more than a slightly sunburnt version of the Lib Dem platform.

If! IF! Let's not throw the baby out before the bathtub has even been filled.

Unless Labour can win back votes in the north of England and Scotland, its going to struggle to get a majority, to say the least!

[Philjia]

Good to see we're all ready to get on with the important business of making the same mistakes as always and trying to torpedo left unity.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Good to see we're all ready to get on with the important business of making the same mistakes as always and trying to torpedo left unity.

The right has always been more unified than the left. Obviously there are elements that are kept out (like the racists) but generally people on the right know who the opposition is.

[Dumb Ideologies]

It is the height of foolishness to declare that a particular candidate "cannot win" when we know nothing of what the faultlines of a future election will be, and consequently even less of the particular platform on those issues that the candidate will adopt.

Clearly the candidates tend towards particular wings of the party and Starmer's milquetoast economics are not encouraging to those of us who think more fundamental economic change is required to address the Tory and even New Labour economic legacies.

I may even go so far to say that if the Tories keep up their shift towards increased social spending I might find it difficult to choose between the parties if Starmer chooses to go all-in on economic centrism to the point where the red of Labour is no more than a slightly sunburnt version of the Lib Dem platform.

If! IF! Let's not throw the baby out before the bathtub has even been filled.

Unless Labour can win back votes in the north of England and Scotland, its going to struggle to get a majority, to say the least!

These are votes that were mainly lost by being on the wrong side of cultural/social issues rather than economics. You're presuming the next election's context. We can't know that the Boris belt remains and the Tory strategy remains the same. Brexit issues and/or the Tories starting to tack back towards austerity to try to balance the books could dramatically change the context. Perhaps the unjustified Tory reputation for economic competence is in tatters and a platform of "responsibility" wins a landslide.

Any of those things might be the case, might not. We don't know where the winning ground will be in 4 years time, it's educated guesswork at best. We cannot predict future events with such a degree of certainty. I'd rather he didn't win either but being so absolutist about future prospects is ill-founded.

[Vassenor]

Good to see we're all ready to get on with the important business of making the same mistakes as always and trying to torpedo left unity.

But the purity is important somehow.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Good to see we're all ready to get on with the important business of making the same mistakes as always and trying to torpedo left unity.

The right has always been more unified than the left. Obviously there are elements that are kept out (like the racists) but generally people on the right know who the opposition is.

Racists are kept out of the right? Since when?

[Dumb Ideologies]

The right has always been more unified than the left. Obviously there are elements that are kept out (like the racists) but generally people on the right know who the opposition is.

Racists are kept out of the right? Since when?

The left would much benefit from seeking to attract the votes of moderate "racists" and leave the fanatic difference-advocates to the Lib Dems so the left doesn't fight among itself over some of the same voters while antagonising natural voters towards working class Toryism.

[Parti Ouvrier]

Good to see we're all ready to get on with the important business of making the same mistakes as always and trying to torpedo left unity.

But the purity is important somehow.

Purists wouldn't vote for a Corbyn led Labour party. I'm not arguing that Labour needs to be Marxist to get my vote!

Anyway, onto the Tory deal with Private hospitals...
https://leftfootforward.org/2020/04/rev ... t-bailout/

[Hirota]

So you're happy with five more years of Boris?

Firstly, you're deluding yourself if you think Starmer will win a general election, and even if he did, Labour's shift back to the right would ensure working class disappointment and demoralisation of working class voters, paving the way for 5 more years of right-wing Tories again when the Starmer led Labour government is up for re-election. In other words, the most you'd achieve is a stop gap, and a pathetic one at that.

Curious. I happen to think of the three, he's probably the most electable...and I was early to express support for Nandy as candidate.

Your argument that a shift towards the center for Labour would automatically mean a vote for the Tories - who are right wing but have moved slightly closer to the center is just downright nonsensical.

I mean, I'd like a clear choice between the two main parties with a clear delineation between the two, but you don't need to keep Labour so far to the left that you can drive a small planet between the two to accomplish that

[Farnhamia]

Who would you rather win? Long Bailey?

Slightly preferable.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... d-21230115

"Trident" Bailey, is it? *** Warned for trolling ***

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Good to see we're all ready to get on with the important business of making the same mistakes as always and trying to torpedo left unity.

The right has always been more unified than the left.

No it hasn't been. During the New Labour years until Cameron came in, the Tories were prone to infighting much more than the left.

Whenever there's a dominant politician or idea that is winning big victories, the opposition ends up divided until someone new unifying politician gains power in the opposition - whether that's through consensus or purging the opposition in their faction/party.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Racists are kept out of the right? Since when?

The left would much benefit from seeking to attract the votes of moderate "racists" and leave the fanatic difference-advocates to the Lib Dems so the left doesn't fight among itself over some of the same voters while antagonising natural voters towards working class Toryism.

There's unfortunately a lot to be said for the Blue Labour position of being less vocal on the social stuff - trans rights, etc etc - and focusing much more on other areas.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Keir Starmer and Angela Rayner are the new Labour Party leader and deputy. I'm happy with the choice, as someone who wishes them well.

[Philjia]

For once, what everyone predicted would happen actually did happen.

[Agarntrop]

Keir Starmer and Angela Rayner are the new Labour Party leader and deputy. I'm happy with the choice, as someone who wishes them well.

Same here

For once, what everyone predicted would happen actually did happen.

Yes, and its great

[South Reinkalistan]

Keir Starmer and Angela Rayner are the new Labour Party leader and deputy. I'm happy with the choice, as someone who wishes them well.

I'm more of the view that Labour's going to be struggling for quite a while; if they wanted to get back on their feet, they could do much better with a more moderate candidate.

[Agarntrop]

Keir Starmer and Angela Rayner are the new Labour Party leader and deputy. I'm happy with the choice, as someone who wishes them well.

I'm more of the view that Labour's going to be struggling for quite a while; if they wanted to get back on their feet, they could do much better with a more moderate candidate.

Elaborate on that

[Philjia]

Keir Starmer and Angela Rayner are the new Labour Party leader and deputy. I'm happy with the choice, as someone who wishes them well.

I'm more of the view that Labour's going to be struggling for quite a while; if they wanted to get back on their feet, they could do much better with a more moderate candidate.

Starmer is moderate.

[South Reinkalistan]

I'm more of the view that Labour's going to be struggling for quite a while; if they wanted to get back on their feet, they could do much better with a more moderate candidate.

Elaborate on that

Well, following their disastrous electoral loss, it's become clear that the more left-wing labour members such as Corbyn aren't going to sway the electorate. I can't stand Blair, but I'd say his policies were more in line with what Labour should be doing to appeal to the more moderate of the electorate. I don't think this turn of events has done them any favours on that front, to be honest.

Starmer is moderate.

Perhaps more so than Corbyn. But not enough to sway the electorate, IMO.

[Philjia]

In addition to winning the leadership election, Starmer supporters won all three of the NEC by-elections taking place. This means Starmer's supporters now control the NEC, which will afford him much more control and flexibility than Corbyn had in his early days as leader.

[Agarntrop]

Elaborate on that

Well, following their disastrous electoral loss, it's become clear that the more left-wing labour members such as Corbyn aren't going to sway the electorate. I can't stand Blair, but I'd say his policies were more in line with what Labour should be doing to appeal to the more moderate of the electorate. I don't think this turn of events has done them any favours on that front, to be honest.

Starmer is moderate.

Perhaps more so than Corbyn. But not enough to sway the electorate, IMO.

We tried moderatism in 2010, we got 255 seats. We tried it again in 2015, we got 232 seats. We tried Corbynism in 2017, and we got 262 seats along with the highest share of the vote since 2001.

The electorate don't simply just prefer neoliberalism.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Congrats to Keir, hope he does well.

[Vassenor]

Well, following their disastrous electoral loss, it's become clear that the more left-wing labour members such as Corbyn aren't going to sway the electorate. I can't stand Blair, but I'd say his policies were more in line with what Labour should be doing to appeal to the more moderate of the electorate. I don't think this turn of events has done them any favours on that front, to be honest.

Perhaps more so than Corbyn. But not enough to sway the electorate, IMO.

We tried moderatism in 2010, we got 255 seats. We tried it again in 2015, we got 232 seats. We tried Corbynism in 2017, and we got 262 seats along with the highest share of the vote since 2001.

The electorate don't simply just prefer neoliberalism.

And the policies he was pushing in 2019 played well with voter samples when given devoid of any sort of party identification.

[Ifreann]

Can't wait to hear about all the time this Starmer lad didn't sing the national anthem and therefore hates the Queen, or owns a house and therefore hates the poor.