Spirit of Hope wrote:Manokan Republic wrote:First, horses can actually pull more and faster, and second, you don't need to pull as much weight as you aren't carrying all the heavy armor and steel and whatnot that is in a truck. You are traveling light to go around something a vehicle would have trouble doing, like the side of a mountain, a very sandy area in the desert wheels are likely to be stuck in, a really muddy area a vehicle may get stuck in, and so on. The reason why special forces uses horses and camels in Afghanistan is due to the sandy areas and mountains which were hard to travel in vehicles with, but easy to do so with animals, for all the reasons I have described.
No they used pack animals because that was all their was for them to use. The pack animals were supplied by local forces the SoF were linking up with. Notably as soon as the US had feet on the ground and were setting up bases and fighting in Afganistan they used trucks.Two horses together can on average pull about 24,000 pounds at around 3-6 mph for sustained periods of time [1][2][3], however, you don't need to do that as horses are not 12,000 pounds a pop, each. You only carry that much weight when using armored vehicles, as the vehicles are expected to pull their own weight. That's a strawman if I've ever seen one. Like infantry, the goal is not uh, well pulling heavy things, it's about getting a person to location faster. The figure of 1.5 times their body weight you're using is for deadweight, and not the weight on wheels. Obviously if you pull the weight when it's on wheels, it's much easier to transport.
First none of your sources talk about hauling loads over 1.5 the horses weight for days at a time, nor do they mention the speed that it can be done at.
http://www.wagonteamster.com/html/faqs.html
https://horsefaqs.com/how-much-weight-c ... on-wheels/ gives a higher ration (2-3 but requires roads)
https://horserookie.com/how-much-weight ... orse-pull/ (again notes 1.5 for long haul, higher for short hall)
https://www.reference.com/pets-animals/ ... 8f2ebe6217 saying the massive weights pulled was measured in feet
Also the weight given for the vehicle in my example was the cargo weight, not the weight of the vehicle itself.
As to speed, the truck was still 20 times faster not including rest time, even if you double the horses speed the truck is still 10 times faster.So, two horses can carry a halftrack at slow speeds more or less. The goal is typically to use horses to get somewhere faster like over rough terrain rather than use them for all logistics purposes, though. If you did, they could carry a lot of weight, but would do so much more slowly than most vehicles. Or you could get there faster, but with less weight.
Even with out weight the truck is going to be faster than the horse, even over rough terrain. The amount of terrain a horse can travel that a truck or jeep can't is small. Also you can't move at high speeds on a horse over rough terrain unless you want to have injured/dead horses and riders.
IIRC a horses ground pressure is higher than a car or trucks, 75 psi vs 20-30 psi.The advantage here is a reduction of fuel, which is useful considering it's a specific resource you can't get ahold of easily, and so getting the vehicles near the combat location at all by slowly pulling them would be the goal. The main purpose of horses or infantry is mobility, they can easily go places most modern vehicles can't. A horse can jump over obstacles, where as vehicles have to be going really fast to clear half the distance a horse or even human can.
Reduced fuel but greatly increased food and water needs, which aren't everywhere.
The number of places pack animals can go that vehicles can't is small. While a horse can jump it can't do so while pulling or carrying a heavy load.To put forth an analogy that maybe will drive it home, imagine police never got out of their cars. They could only chase after suspects, in cars. The moment they're in a building, run down an alley way, go in to the woods etc. you would be completely useless and the suspect could always escape. So, now you're in a pickle, how do you chase after people? Well, you get out and pursue on foot, which removes a lot of your advantages and puts you at risk of the enemy shooting you, or, you use say, a horse. Horses can jump and maneuver over obstacles, and balance in awkward situations, where as a car cannot. It's as simple as that, and it's kind of just an intuitive thing.
Notably horse mounted police are rare, largely work in cities where they make the officers visible in crowds, and crowds visible to officers, are used in incredibly small numbers, and aren't used often in pursuit situations. I mean the Canadian Mounties don't use horse for regular duties, and haven't since the 1930's.
So yeah if you want to use an incredibly small number of horses to transport special forces while they are outside of logistical support feel free. But that is a rather niche use.
Your numbers show two main things, one that the figure differs from DEAD weight vs. the weight on wheels, and second one of your sources says "That’s right: pairing horses increases load capability, or how much weight they can pull together. If one horse can pull a cart weighing 6,000 lbs, two horses should be able to pull 12,000 lbs, right? If those horses are working together, they can actually pull 18,000 lbs — three times the load one horse working alone can pull." The numbers vary so much based on how the animal is pulling or carrying the weight. If it's on it's back or dragged behind it, it will be far less than if it's in a cart. A human can push or pull a very heavy cart by their bare hands, or even push a car if need be, so that's not that crazy. If a full grown adult male can push a car that's not in break, and it's only a few thousand pounds, then a horse definitely can pull one. If it's on wheels, you can reasonably expect a horse to pull several thousand pounds at speed for a distance of 10's of miles a day, easy, considering that a human can as well. People have pushed their cars several miles to get to rest stops before.
ANYWAYS. As I said before, the main advantage is not really raw tonnage, but maneuverability, the same as humans. You can cover terrain much more easily that vehicles can't, thus going the path that is least likely to expose you to enemy fire. The reason why helicopters don't go up super high in mountains and they send in infantry instead, or soldiers on horses/with pack mules, is for this reason. The higher pressure for their hooves is a good thing, as it means the smaller surface area can be balanced in a smaller area, thus allowing for less space in between obstacles to still allow a horse to travel. Horses can also jump over or step over large obstacles, where as a wheeled vehicle must always remain flat on the ground in most circumstances, reducing it's maneuverability. Horses and camels are often used in deserts, mountains, urban areas and rural areas, be it by police or otherwise, and it's not particularly rare, as horses are still common in the world. It's more common in very rural areas or very urban areas, but they do exist. The main issue is training ,as while anyone can be trained to ride a horse, and horse cultures exist, most people do not know how. It's a technical skill many have not accomplished. It would primarily be useful in very specific niche operations, one might be airborne, where deploying with something lighter and that can live off the land, or travel over rougher terrain would be more useful. After a while though, such as when roads are eventually built, horses would be less important, only in the initial deployment or covering of ground. Going the less expected path or going through a path quickly are both really large advantages in military warfare, be it paratroopers landing, waterborne invasions or Hannibal crossing the alps, so it is a great advantage. Of course after this is done, you often abandon this method later on (soldiers only need to do a beach landing sparingly, or deploy with parachutes from aircraft etc.), so yeah it's meant for specific niche purposes.
It's difficult to explain without any videos or pictures or someone just seeing or doing it for themselves but, horses can stretch their legs out, go upwards or downwards more easily than a car, can step around things, and so on. Here is a picture of a rocky area. How do you suppose a car is supposed to get up there, let alone drive on top of those rocks without getting stuck in a crevice or falling through? A person can easily jump across what a vehicle would be stuck in, be it a rocky area or a mud puddle, and so can a horse or many other animals. As someone who has done a fair bit of jeeping, mountain biking and hiking on various trails, I mean it's obvious that a person can climb over all kinds of things a car or bike gets obviously stuck in. Not to mention it's easier to go that way on foot often. So a horse or mule in the same sort of situation can also usually travel along these irregular paths, that would otherwise be dangerous or impossible to travel via conventional means, and would still be stealthy and not exposed to enemy fire like aircraft would.