NATION

PASSWORD

Alternatives to marriage

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
Senator
 
Posts: 4364
Founded: Apr 05, 2017
Ex-Nation

Alternatives to marriage

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:20 am

In theory, the point of marriage is to get your relationship; and the terms and conditions thereof; in writing, if only to have some grounds other than "he said, she said" to stand on when someone in the relationship goes back on their word.

And yet, no fault divorce allows an even split of marital assets. I get the case for no fault divorce; you don't want someone who's at fault but can't be proven at fault to trap someone in a bad relationship. But this creates incentive to marry someone of higher income than oneself and sabotage the relationship on purpose to get their money.

As well, with the increasing variety of relationship types; open relationships, polyamorous relationships, etc... as well as theoretically monogamous relationships one has less reason to believe is likely to last as long. (Eg. One where one or both partners intends to go overseas for work but are unlikely to find employment in the same overseas town.)

Is there an alternative form of contract that is more accommodating of these types of relationships, and/or less likely to be misused by anyone who would sabotage a relationship for money? Or is this already covered by prenups?
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

User avatar
Sundiata
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9755
Founded: Sep 27, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Sundiata » Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:23 am

...

True complete love and marriage go together. There's no separating the two. You can't have one without the other. But utimately, marriage is not the issue. The issue is divorce, no-fault divorce or otherwise. Divorce should not be legal.

That said, I'm not opposed to annulling a marriage if it is not formed on ethical conditions.

Annulment ≠ Divorce
Last edited by Sundiata on Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:49 am, edited 7 times in total.
"Don't say, 'That person bothers me.' Think: 'That person sanctifies me.'"
-St. Josemaria Escriva

User avatar
The Xaviet Empire
Attaché
 
Posts: 94
Founded: Jan 08, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby The Xaviet Empire » Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:25 am

Deat.
Hail the Empire!

Heilt Jocospor

User avatar
Big Jim P
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 55158
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Big Jim P » Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:28 am

Shepard.
Hail Satan!
Happily married to Roan Cara, The first RL NS marriage, and Pope Joan is my Father-in-law.
I edit my posts to fix typos.

User avatar
Nanatsu no Tsuki
Post-Apocalypse Survivor
 
Posts: 204182
Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:28 am

When it comes to marriage, imo, it’s about what you make of it. Sometimes marriages don’t work and must come to an end. It would be great if both sides could work at ending it on equal grounds.

I know however that that’s not often the case. For those, prenups could help but they’re not as ironclad as I thought. A judge can most definitely dismiss a prenup for several reasons.

As for a better arrangement? Hm... civil unions could be it. But in the end, I think it would be better if people sat down and worked on crafting how they want their unions to work. Plan for them. Agree to things. Set boundaries.
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGs
RIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria

User avatar
Auzkhia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28957
Founded: Mar 11, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Auzkhia » Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:29 am

Legal binding marriage with multiple partners would take some slight rewriting of the legal structures, especially when it comes to divorce proceedings.

Personally, I'd like legalized polygamy, I'm not sure how or if it would get achieved. I don't think marriage is necessary to legitimize relationships, it does allow for some rights and financial gains, file taxes jointly, for example.

I remember when civil unions or domestic partnerships were a thing, but even those are just boneless marriages, or not nominally that, it's some weird second class thing.
Me irl. (she/her/it)
IC name: Celestial Empire of the Romans
Imperial-Royal Statement on NS Stats
Factbook Embassy App
Trans Lesbian Non-binary Lady Greco-Roman Pagan Socialist

User avatar
Nakena
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15010
Founded: May 06, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Nakena » Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:32 am

Auzkhia wrote:I remember when civil unions or domestic partnerships were a thing, but even those are just boneless marriages, or not nominally that, it's some weird second class thing.


How it is a boneless marriage? What makes it a legit one?

Rubberstamped, by the state, church?

Specifically when your idea of marriage is outside of the category of what is acceptable by the later.

Unless ofc the ultimative objective is to shoehorn to be accepted and recognized by the later... which i would find weird.

Why strive from acceptance from that?

User avatar
Cekoviu
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16954
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Cekoviu » Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:48 am

Marriage should not be legally recognized.
pro: women's rights
anti: men's rights

User avatar
The New California Republic
Post Czar
 
Posts: 35483
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:55 am

Sundiata wrote:Love and marriage go together. There's no separating the two. You can't have one without the other.

Categorically wrong. Love can and does exist perfectly fine without marriage.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

User avatar
Auzkhia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28957
Founded: Mar 11, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Auzkhia » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:04 am

Nakena wrote:
Auzkhia wrote:I remember when civil unions or domestic partnerships were a thing, but even those are just boneless marriages, or not nominally that, it's some weird second class thing.


How it is a boneless marriage? What makes it a legit one?

Rubberstamped, by the state, church?

Specifically when your idea of marriage is outside of the category of what is acceptable by the later.

Unless ofc the ultimative objective is to shoehorn to be accepted and recognized by the later... which i would find weird.

Why strive from acceptance from that?

Yeah, that rubber stamp from state and/or church.

I thought about having a ceremony without any legal recognition.
The New California Republic wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Love and marriage go together. There's no separating the two. You can't have one without the other.

Categorically wrong. Love can and does exist perfectly fine without marriage.

That's very true!
Me irl. (she/her/it)
IC name: Celestial Empire of the Romans
Imperial-Royal Statement on NS Stats
Factbook Embassy App
Trans Lesbian Non-binary Lady Greco-Roman Pagan Socialist

User avatar
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
Senator
 
Posts: 4364
Founded: Apr 05, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:13 am

Cekoviu wrote:Marriage should not be legally recognized.

What recourse would someone have when a person in a marriage goes back on their word, then?
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

User avatar
Dytarma
Minister
 
Posts: 2232
Founded: Nov 24, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Dytarma » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:16 am

Was gonna say something about foregoing marriage and having 20-200 lovers, but oh well.
I don't acknowledge the existence of genders and I'm pro death on abortion. All babies must die (sc).
Master Dispatch (or everything I don't want deleted)
Dytarma's Birthday
Don't know what else to put, so I'm -0.50 left and -0.41 libertarian according to The Political Compass

User avatar
Ethel mermania
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 129920
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:33 am

Civil unions, expand some of the rights of partners but not all. Dissolvable by filing paperwork at city hall.
https://www.hvst.com/posts/the-clash-of ... s-wl2TQBpY

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.
--S. Huntington

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 

--H. Kissenger

User avatar
Nakena
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15010
Founded: May 06, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Nakena » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:37 am

Auzkhia wrote:Yeah, that rubber stamp from state and/or church.


While I get that thing from the state why from the church? Why desired to be accepted by an institution that follows such a religion?

Auzkhia wrote:I thought about having a ceremony without any legal recognition.


Such can be arranged, without the involvement of either above institutions.

User avatar
Unstoppable Empire of Doom
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1798
Founded: Dec 18, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Unstoppable Empire of Doom » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:39 am

Marriage should be a purely religious institution. If you want to have a party and give someone a ring go ahead. If you want to sign a contract that reads "I bet you half my shit that I'll never cheat on you." Go ahead. Just dont expect special tax breaks and a law that says what people can and cannot have that party and sign those contracts.
Whoever said "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink" has clearly never drown a horse.

User avatar
Cekoviu
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16954
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Cekoviu » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:39 am

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Marriage should not be legally recognized.

What recourse would someone have when a person in a marriage goes back on their word, then?

Passive-aggression, primarily.
pro: women's rights
anti: men's rights

User avatar
Saiwania
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22269
Founded: Jun 30, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Saiwania » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:39 am

The main alternative is simply not getting married. Better to not do so than to have buyers' remorse at a later date. If opting for marriage, you need to be really sure about it.
Sith Acolyte
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken!

User avatar
Hammer Britannia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5390
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Hammer Britannia » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:41 am

Why?

Yes, it's unfortunate that people abuse the sanctity of marriage for financial gain. But you know what? There are reasons why those financial gains exist. Marriage, in the modern western world, is the legal bond between two people who nominally are deeply in love and are willing to legally support each other. It only makes sense that when two people who were reliant on each other for survival split, they both get something to benefit. Of course, that's what should happen in a fair world, but you know what? Life isn't fair.

Have you ever stopped to ponder, why? Why would people be so willing to scam out each other using love? Why do we live in a world where there are people who are willing to screw and marry just to fuck them over in the end? It's a fault of Capitalism and Society, my friend. It's a fault of a decedent society that sees monetary value in everything and is willing to brand and package basic necessities such as food, water, medicine, and indeed, love itself. Maybe you should start at the root evil rather than punishing the hundreds of million couples who (at least the majority) just want to live a happy life together.
Last edited by Hammer Britannia on Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
All shall tremble before me

User avatar
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
Senator
 
Posts: 4364
Founded: Apr 05, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:42 am

Unstoppable Empire of Doom wrote:Marriage should be a purely religious institution. If you want to have a party and give someone a ring go ahead. If you want to sign a contract that reads "I bet you half my shit that I'll never cheat on you." Go ahead. Just dont expect special tax breaks and a law that says what people can and cannot have that party and sign those contracts.

Not all contracts entered into by private individuals are enforceable.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

User avatar
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
Senator
 
Posts: 4364
Founded: Apr 05, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:44 am

Hammer Britannia wrote:Why?

Yes, it's unfortunate that people abuse the sanctity of marriage for financial gain. But you know what? There are reasons why those financial gains exist. Marriage, in the modern western world, is the legal bond between two people who nominally are deeply in love and are willing to legally support each other. It only makes sense that when two people who were reliant on each other for survival split, they both get something to benefit. Of course, that's what should happen in a fair world, but you know what? Life isn't fair.

Have you ever stopped to ponder, why? Why would people be so willing to scam out each other using love? Why do we live in a world where there are people who are willing to screw and marry just to fuck them over in the end? It's a fault of Capitalism and Society, my friend. It's a fault of a decedent society that sees monetary value in everything and is willing to brand and package basic necessities such as food, water, medicine, and indeed, love itself. Maybe you should start at the root evil rather than punishing the hundreds of million couples who (at least the majority) just want to live a happy life together.

This is like saying we shouldn't have laws against fraud because "it's the fault of capitalism and society, my friend." What is society going to do about it?
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

User avatar
Hammer Britannia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5390
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Hammer Britannia » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:45 am

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:Why?

Yes, it's unfortunate that people abuse the sanctity of marriage for financial gain. But you know what? There are reasons why those financial gains exist. Marriage, in the modern western world, is the legal bond between two people who nominally are deeply in love and are willing to legally support each other. It only makes sense that when two people who were reliant on each other for survival split, they both get something to benefit. Of course, that's what should happen in a fair world, but you know what? Life isn't fair.

Have you ever stopped to ponder, why? Why would people be so willing to scam out each other using love? Why do we live in a world where there are people who are willing to screw and marry just to fuck them over in the end? It's a fault of Capitalism and Society, my friend. It's a fault of a decedent society that sees monetary value in everything and is willing to brand and package basic necessities such as food, water, medicine, and indeed, love itself. Maybe you should start at the root evil rather than punishing the hundreds of million couples who (at least the majority) just want to live a happy life together.

This is like saying we shouldn't have laws against fraud because "it's the fault of capitalism and society, my friend." What is society going to do about it?

I'm just saying, there is always a bigger fish to fry. You are not treating the problem, you are treating a """symptom""" of the problem and calling it a day.

Maybe, just maybe, we'll realize that this is all bullshit and one day we'll do something to treat the problem rather than complaining at every little symptom
Last edited by Hammer Britannia on Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
All shall tremble before me

User avatar
Unstoppable Empire of Doom
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1798
Founded: Dec 18, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Unstoppable Empire of Doom » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:48 am

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Unstoppable Empire of Doom wrote:Marriage should be a purely religious institution. If you want to have a party and give someone a ring go ahead. If you want to sign a contract that reads "I bet you half my shit that I'll never cheat on you." Go ahead. Just dont expect special tax breaks and a law that says what people can and cannot have that party and sign those contracts.

Not all contracts entered into by private individuals are enforceable.

Naturally if they violate the law or are created poorly. Verbal contracts are useless. No you cant add a guarantee of murder. Yet generally speaking contracts between people are enforceable.
Whoever said "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink" has clearly never drown a horse.

User avatar
Plzen
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9805
Founded: Mar 19, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Plzen » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:54 am

Cekoviu wrote:Marriage should not be legally recognized.

Seconded.

Romantic relationships, in marriage or otherwise, is entirely an intimate, personal affair in which the State has absolutely no business whatsoever.

The State should not create a legal definition for marriage, should not keep records of which citizens are married to which others, and should confer no privilege and impose no obligations on citizens on the basis of their marital status. Basically, the State should treat marriages the same way it treats friendships: with uncompromised non-interference.
Last edited by Plzen on Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58552
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:06 am

Hammer Britannia wrote:Why?

Yes, it's unfortunate that people abuse the sanctity of marriage for financial gain. But you know what? There are reasons why those financial gains exist. Marriage, in the modern western world, is the legal bond between two people who nominally are deeply in love and are willing to legally support each other. It only makes sense that when two people who were reliant on each other for survival split, they both get something to benefit. Of course, that's what should happen in a fair world, but you know what? Life isn't fair.

Have you ever stopped to ponder, why? Why would people be so willing to scam out each other using love? Why do we live in a world where there are people who are willing to screw and marry just to fuck them over in the end? It's a fault of Capitalism and Society, my friend. It's a fault of a decedent society that sees monetary value in everything and is willing to brand and package basic necessities such as food, water, medicine, and indeed, love itself. Maybe you should start at the root evil rather than punishing the hundreds of million couples who (at least the majority) just want to live a happy life together.


If the argument was that they're reliant on eachother, why is the divorce dynamic advanced purely from the perspective of empowering women and alleviating them from the burdens of divorce, but not men?

An actually equal split concerned with maintaining the relevant elements would be a mandatory job offer from the man for the woman as a maid and cook, historically speaking, so that both retain the material benefits of the arrangement necessary to their survival as you put it. This did not occur, because the advocates involved were not concerned with equality or fairness, only the advancement of womens interests.

Instead, the woman is entitled to half the assets and income while providing nothing she did previously. Such an unbalanced arrangement is not one men should agree to or tolerate, and a woman who seeks to enter such an arrangement with a man does not truly respect him and his wellbeing, and is being selfish. Since she cannot guarantee her future love, she is placing him at risk for basically no reason beyond her own financial benefit.

These days you also see some men benefiting from divorce, though societal dynamics ensure this is a vastly less common occurrence, and we can be confident that if it ever became widespread enough, feminists would suddenly see the need for divorce law reform.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

User avatar
Sundiata
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9755
Founded: Sep 27, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Sundiata » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:59 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Love and marriage go together. There's no separating the two. You can't have one without the other.

Categorically wrong. Love can and does exist perfectly fine without marriage.

No it does not.

Without marriage two people are not committed to one another for life, only lust can come without marriage.
"Don't say, 'That person bothers me.' Think: 'That person sanctifies me.'"
-St. Josemaria Escriva

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aadhiris, Aggicificicerous, Alinek, Ancientania, Bienenhalde, Corzerran, Eahland, Etwepe, Google [Bot], Hidrandia, Ineva, Jenha, Kerwa, Lothria, Russian Brotherhood, Sighthavand, The Black Forrest, The Lone Alliance

Advertisement

Remove ads