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[PASSED] Commend Kindjal

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Excidium Planetis
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Ex-Nation

Postby Excidium Planetis » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:26 am

Praeceps wrote:As someone else who has been around answering issues for quite some time, I'd like to add some more facts:

1. Consistently choosing the same option is easy. There are a limited number of issues, while you were occasionally encounter a new issue, a lot of the time you will have previously seen the same issue and can make the same decision.
2. Answering issues does not take much time, especially if you have a good idea of how you want your nation to be and previous experience in issues.


Given that your highest badge that's actually dependent on issue effects (IE, not value of trading cards or WA endorsements) is 217th in the world for inclusiveness, an impressive but not particularly exceptional feat, whereas Pencil Sharpeners 2 is 18th in the world for Average Income of the Poor and also is in the top 200 of the world for another 14 stats, I would say Pencil might perhaps have more experience answering issues than you do. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong?

Either that, or, seeing as you find it so easy, you're actually much better than Pencil at answering issues, which means that Pencil could still be right and it is in fact hard, you just happen to be so good at it that it seems easy to you.
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Kuriko
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kuriko » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:29 am

Excidium Planetis wrote:
Kuriko wrote:Except defending actually helps other people, whereas issues answering only affects your nation.

Defending has never helped me.

Maybe it's helped some players, but so has Kindjal's achievements, as we have direct testimony here that being consistently the best has inspired players to be better at the issues game.

Just because you yourself have not personally felt helped by Kindjal's accomplishments does not mean their accomplishments have been without effect on other players.

Edit: In fact the very fact that there is a Commendation effort and that it hasn't been the first one demonstrates that there are players out there who have been inspired by Kindjal. You don't typically write up Commendations for people you haven't been inspired by.

I wasn't inspired by Common Territories, nor was I inspired by Sarzonia. I write resolutions for deserving nations, not because I was inspired by those nations, but because those nations deserved recognition for the hard work they've put into the various aspects they play in NS.
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Kindjal
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kindjal » Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:00 am

Hi,
Just wanted to answer a couple of statements I've read here quickly (because I've been playing that game for so long that now I got RL diapers to change >_<)
I'm still the same player, never gave my account to anyone, but of course you are free to not believe me !
Yep I'm french, Hence even if I love a good RP, it is harder and takes longer for me to be able to write a decent one. I used to RP in my region but it was a long time ago and other nations are all dead
I didn't know there were tools for answering issues, only ever picked whichever answer seemed the best to me, which means I sometimes dismiss issues like scandal rocks your government because I don't Care if an official is cheating on his wife as long as he's doing a good job.
I did answer TG for a time, but I don't got that much wisdom to share, and I got into really unpleasant conversation at Time doing so... so I eventually stopped. And I used to get more "I'm going to invade your nation" Tg then "can you help me ?" Tg so...
Err what else did you ask ? Or did you had any other question ?
Also once someone wrote a commendation for me but it didn't make it to the WA, I guess it was because of the lack of RP to back then but I had no Idea, I was a bit disappointed so congratz on getting the commendation to the WA this time !

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Jakker City
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Ex-Nation

Postby Jakker City » Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:22 am

There is a lot of value and benefit in the SC having a more nuanced and critical lens to their approach to C&Cs. As has been evident in this thread, it will take a lot more for someone who focuses exclusively on issues to be recognized. But if anyone deserves it, it seems like Kindjal does. It is important for the SC to not just put defending on a pedestal, but recognize that there are a lot of other ways for a nation to have accomplishments and make the game better. I support this and hope it passes.
Last edited by Jakker City on Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tecrossh
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Ex-Nation

Postby Tecrossh » Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:43 am

Kindjal shares many of the same values and surmounted many of the same struggles as Tecrossh. We are honored as a young, fledgling nation to see Kindjal as a role model and leader for Democratic Socialist nations world-wide. We gladely commend them!

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Grubville
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Ex-Nation

Postby Grubville » Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:48 am

Grubville will be voting in support of this commendation.

We believe that a commitment to greatness across such a broad range of issues should, in particular, be praised. In a world where progress is often slow, and as the consequences of poor choices grow ever worse as utopia draws closer, this level of achievement should serve as inspiration to other governments, both large and small.

Grubville gladly commends Kindjal for its success and hopes one to day stand shoulder to shoulder with them among the ranks of the truly impressive world powers.

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Excidium Planetis
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Postby Excidium Planetis » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:08 am

Kuriko wrote: I write resolutions for deserving nations, not because I was inspired by those nations, but because those nations deserved recognition for the hard work they've put into the various aspects they play in NS.


I believe this is why Kindjal should be Commended. They deserve recognition for the hard work they've put into the aspect they play in NS.
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Kuriko
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kuriko » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:13 am

Excidium Planetis wrote:
Kuriko wrote: I write resolutions for deserving nations, not because I was inspired by those nations, but because those nations deserved recognition for the hard work they've put into the various aspects they play in NS.


I believe this is why Kindjal should be Commended. They deserve recognition for the hard work they've put into the aspect they play in NS.

Its answering issues, answering issues isn't hard work. It's not coding, its not law writing, it's not resolution authoring, it's selecting one of multiple choices after reading a prompt.
Last edited by Kuriko on Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bormiar
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Ex-Nation

Postby Bormiar » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:17 am

Kuriko wrote:
Excidium Planetis wrote:
I believe this is why Kindjal should be Commended. They deserve recognition for the hard work they've put into the aspect they play in NS.

Its answering issues, answering issues isn't hard work. It's not coding, its not law writing, it's not resolution authoring, it's selecting one of multiple choices after reading a prompt.

Speaking as someone who writes resolutions and tries to answer issues consistently, writing the 10 historically needed for commendation is far easier than answering issues for 17 years straight.
Last edited by Bormiar on Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kuriko
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kuriko » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:25 am

Bormiar wrote:
Kuriko wrote:Its answering issues, answering issues isn't hard work. It's not coding, its not law writing, it's not resolution authoring, it's selecting one of multiple choices after reading a prompt.

Speaking as someone who writes resolutions and tries to answer issues consistently, writing the 10 historically needed for commendation is far easier than answering issues for 17 years straight.

Writing resolutions is 10× harder than answering issues, something you and I both know. Issues answering also doesn't have 5,000 - 7,000 people voting on your decisions.
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Polis Diamonil
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Postby Polis Diamonil » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:27 am

OOC:

I don't agree with the characterization of the stats page as 100% IC, since for instance I believe the ever-increasing population counts rubbish that interpretation. I do however treat tax rates and policies as presumptively in-character... to some extent. This game doesn't provide enough tools and information for the flow of issues to ever be entirely IC - for instance, once a nation has exceeded 100% taxation in this system, it would be very hard to ever fix that, even if the issue system were not so generally tilted towards requiring grevious tradeoffs to ever see the tax rate dropped. This bit is tricky, and gets into what I think is almost a kind of mistreatment inflicted on the players of NationStates, to present nations as consenting to ever-escalating tax rates when the issue flow creating that outcome often represents electing reasonable options... on the other hand, I admit I've enjoyed the tension this creates in the governance of Polis Diamonil.

IC:

What is a society without disposable income? Is everyone's resource allocation strictly ordered? How can people know for themselves that they have found a favorable allocation of the resources that their income earns if they have no control over how that income is expended? There is a substantial amount of economic activity in Polis Diamonil transacted solely through central or regional economic planning, consuming 68% of income and representing 44% of output, but we still fight taxes in an ongoing way to preserve that portion of the economy of Polis Diamonil which is transacted at the discretion of the individual citizen. Even in our opposition to capitalism and the black market alike, we are not trying to squelch all individual initiative.

In Polis Diamonil, restrictions on disposable income are even considered restrictions on independent media, as media consumption habits are considered especially central in that which ought to remain at the discretion of the citizenry. While some nations have state press institutions which could at least partially make up for such deficits, we can see that in Kindjal there does not appear to be a state press whereby the deficit could be made up. That suggests that they must have a volunteer media. Yet with what resources can such a volunteer media support itself if there is no public discretion in the allocation of funds? Is that the purview of welfare and social policy in Kindjal? Even granting an apparent excellence contra corruption in Kindjal, there are other forms of bias.
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Excidium Planetis
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Postby Excidium Planetis » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:32 am

Kuriko wrote:Its answering issues, answering issues isn't hard work. It's not coding, its not law writing, it's not resolution authoring, it's selecting one of multiple choices after reading a prompt.


Okay, now we're just arguing in circles. This whole debate started off with an argument on whether Kindjal worked hard or not, and then you started arguing that Kindjal might actually be two separate people (disputed by the nominee), that Kindjal might not have consented to the nomination (nominee has voiced approval), and that Kindjal's work, unlike Defending, hasn't helped anyone (which now apparently isn't a requirement for you?). And now we come back to the hard work argument.

If you weren't convinced that answering issues for over a decade and a half, despite changes to the stat system and new issues being added all the time, and maintaining a lead in several categories despite other people also trying for #1 in those categories all requires hard work, then I'm afraid there's nothing else I can do to convince you. We're just in disagreement.
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Imperium Anglorum wrote:Digital Network Defence is pretty meh
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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:40 am

Kuriko wrote:
Bormiar wrote:Speaking as someone who writes resolutions and tries to answer issues consistently, writing the 10 historically needed for commendation is far easier than answering issues for 17 years straight.

Writing resolutions is 10× harder than answering issues, something you and I both know. Issues answering also doesn't have 5,000 - 7,000 people voting on your decisions.

I really don't think work spent on 10 resolutions cumulatively can compare to work spent on 25,000 issues cumulatively. Sure, one individual resolution is 10 times harder than an issue, but this is not one resolution or one issue. It's tough, but we shouldn't be giving ourselves too much credit.

As for voting, most resolutions passed are uncontroversial and real easy (e.g. for me Condemn Atlantic, Condemn Gatesville Inc), so while I do debate with voters in the thread and in offsite forums and discord servers, I don't have to. Sometimes it's just picking a good nominee.

Issue answering also takes thought and often times you do do something wrong. Recently I accidentally legalized ritual sacri- well, that's a little too embarrassing.



Polis Diamonil wrote:snip

While taxation is a legitimate concern, the automatons that are NationStates people seem perfectly content.




Excidium Planetis wrote:
Kuriko wrote:Its answering issues, answering issues isn't hard work. It's not coding, its not law writing, it's not resolution authoring, it's selecting one of multiple choices after reading a prompt.


Okay, now we're just arguing in circles. This whole debate started off with an argument on whether Kindjal worked hard or not, and then you started arguing that Kindjal might actually be two separate people (disputed by the nominee), that Kindjal might not have consented to the nomination (nominee has voiced approval), and that Kindjal's work, unlike Defending, hasn't helped anyone (which now apparently isn't a requirement for you?). And now we come back to the hard work argument.

If you weren't convinced that answering issues for over a decade and a half, despite changes to the stat system and new issues being added all the time, and maintaining a lead in several categories despite other people also trying for #1 in those categories all requires hard work, then I'm afraid there's nothing else I can do to convince you. We're just in disagreement.

Oh we're definitely arguing in circles.

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Kuriko
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kuriko » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:48 am

Excidium Planetis wrote:
Kuriko wrote:Its answering issues, answering issues isn't hard work. It's not coding, its not law writing, it's not resolution authoring, it's selecting one of multiple choices after reading a prompt.


Okay, now we're just arguing in circles. This whole debate started off with an argument on whether Kindjal worked hard or not, and then you started arguing that Kindjal might actually be two separate people (disputed by the nominee), that Kindjal might not have consented to the nomination (nominee has voiced approval), and that Kindjal's work, unlike Defending, hasn't helped anyone (which now apparently isn't a requirement for you?). And now we come back to the hard work argument.

If you weren't convinced that answering issues for over a decade and a half, despite changes to the stat system and new issues being added all the time, and maintaining a lead in several categories despite other people also trying for #1 in those categories all requires hard work, then I'm afraid there's nothing else I can do to convince you. We're just in disagreement.

What isn't a requirement for me? Helping people?
Last edited by Kuriko on Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Excidium Planetis
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Ex-Nation

Postby Excidium Planetis » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:54 am

Kuriko wrote:What isn't a requirement for me? Helping people?

Apparently. You argued that Kindjal hasn't helped anyone, I offered evidence otherwise, and then you responded by saying you write Resolutions not for inspiring people, but for people who put in hard work in their aspect of the game. You didn't say anything about helping people being an additional requirement for writing those Resolutions.
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Imperium Anglorum wrote:Digital Network Defence is pretty meh
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News: None. Good, right?

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Kuriko
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kuriko » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:56 am

Bormiar wrote:
Kuriko wrote:Writing resolutions is 10× harder than answering issues, something you and I both know. Issues answering also doesn't have 5,000 - 7,000 people voting on your decisions.

I really don't think work spent on 10 resolutions cumulatively can compare to work spent on 25,000 issues cumulatively. Sure, one individual resolution is 10 times harder than an issue, but this is not one resolution or one issue. It's tough, but we shouldn't be giving ourselves too much credit.

As for voting, most resolutions passed are uncontroversial and real easy (e.g. for me Condemn Atlantic, Condemn Gatesville Inc), so while I do debate with voters in the thread and in offsite forums and discord servers, I don't have to. Sometimes it's just picking a good nominee.

Dont worry Borm, eventually you'll have you're own Commend Texas vote. Where 6 of the 9 feeders and sinkers stomp against your proposal, and you have to fight to get it passed. :)
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Kuriko
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kuriko » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:57 am

Excidium Planetis wrote:
Kuriko wrote:What isn't a requirement for me? Helping people?

Apparently. You argued that Kindjal hasn't helped anyone, I offered evidence otherwise, and then you responded by saying you write Resolutions not for inspiring people, but for people who put in hard work in their aspect of the game. You didn't say anything about helping people being an additional requirement for writing those Resolutions.

Hmmm... Yeah, you're right. Sorry about that.
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Bormiar
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Ex-Nation

Postby Bormiar » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:00 am

Kuriko wrote:
Bormiar wrote:I really don't think work spent on 10 resolutions cumulatively can compare to work spent on 25,000 issues cumulatively. Sure, one individual resolution is 10 times harder than an issue, but this is not one resolution or one issue. It's tough, but we shouldn't be giving ourselves too much credit.

As for voting, most resolutions passed are uncontroversial and real easy (e.g. for me Condemn Atlantic, Condemn Gatesville Inc), so while I do debate with voters in the thread and in offsite forums and discord servers, I don't have to. Sometimes it's just picking a good nominee.

Dont worry Borm, eventually you'll have you're own Commend Texas vote. Where 6 of the 9 feeders and sinkers stomp against your proposal, and you have to fight to get it passed. :)

Idk I think this is a fight. TNP definitely was very hesitantly against this at the start of drafting.

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Kindjal
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kindjal » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:21 am

Polis Diamonil wrote:In Polis Diamonil, restrictions on disposable income are even considered restrictions on independent media, as media consumption habits are considered especially central in that which ought to remain at the discretion of the citizenry. While some nations have state press institutions which could at least partially make up for such deficits, we can see that in Kindjal there does not appear to be a state press whereby the deficit could be made up. That suggests that they must have a volunteer media. Yet with what resources can such a volunteer media support itself if there is no public discretion in the allocation of funds? Is that the purview of welfare and social policy in Kindjal? Even granting an apparent excellence contra corruption in Kindjal, there are other forms of bias.


The way I see it, everything belongs to the State, so everything every kindjali produce is state owned, which also mean everything belongs to every kindjali. So media belongs to everyone, and everyone is free to contribute, the State having no control over it. And yes, apparently not owning anything while knowing that your nation will provide you with all you need and want seems to make people quite happy...

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Polis Diamonil
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Ex-Nation

Postby Polis Diamonil » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:29 am

Well... That's a fair vision of utopian. Certainly there seems to be much to learn from a nation that has advanced so far. Very well, Polis Diamonil will support the commendation.
Rain Falling in a Digital Void is all me. Canonically, it's called Rafaiad. NationStates runs a crude system that mistreats creativity, but I've done my best to twist together something of a narrative structure differentiating the nations of Rafaiad and yet building them together.

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Praeceps
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Praeceps » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:21 pm

Excidium Planetis wrote:
Praeceps wrote:As someone else who has been around answering issues for quite some time, I'd like to add some more facts:

1. Consistently choosing the same option is easy. There are a limited number of issues, while you were occasionally encounter a new issue, a lot of the time you will have previously seen the same issue and can make the same decision.
2. Answering issues does not take much time, especially if you have a good idea of how you want your nation to be and previous experience in issues.


Given that your highest badge that's actually dependent on issue effects (IE, not value of trading cards or WA endorsements) is 217th in the world for inclusiveness, an impressive but not particularly exceptional feat, whereas Pencil Sharpeners 2 is 18th in the world for Average Income of the Poor and also is in the top 200 of the world for another 14 stats, I would say Pencil might perhaps have more experience answering issues than you do. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong?

Either that, or, seeing as you find it so easy, you're actually much better than Pencil at answering issues, which means that Pencil could still be right and it is in fact hard, you just happen to be so good at it that it seems easy to you.

You don't even have any stats in the top 1% so should we even be talking :p

The effects of issues stack. I could create a new nation but no matter how well I answered issues for the first week, I wouldn't be able to pass Kindjal, PS, Ransium, myself in the rankings. That would be because I haven't answered the magnitude of issues on the new nation that others have. When you answer issues after being established for quite some time rarely do you take your nation in an ew direction. Most of the time, you are simply reaffirming the decisions you have made previously. For example, I take the stance that I want to employ people; when an issue where an option to increase employment comes along, I typically make the choice to employ people (keeping in mind other effects of course) which increases my employment. Over time, as I continue to come with issues related to employment, I will be able to make more choices that increase my nation's employment. Answering issues in this manner pushes you further in a direction and over time, this adds up.
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Bormiar
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Ex-Nation

Postby Bormiar » Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:20 pm

Praeceps wrote:
Excidium Planetis wrote:
Given that your highest badge that's actually dependent on issue effects (IE, not value of trading cards or WA endorsements) is 217th in the world for inclusiveness, an impressive but not particularly exceptional feat, whereas Pencil Sharpeners 2 is 18th in the world for Average Income of the Poor and also is in the top 200 of the world for another 14 stats, I would say Pencil might perhaps have more experience answering issues than you do. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong?

Either that, or, seeing as you find it so easy, you're actually much better than Pencil at answering issues, which means that Pencil could still be right and it is in fact hard, you just happen to be so good at it that it seems easy to you.

You don't even have any stats in the top 1% so should we even be talking :p

The effects of issues stack. I could create a new nation but no matter how well I answered issues for the first week, I wouldn't be able to pass Kindjal, PS, Ransium, myself in the rankings. That would be because I haven't answered the magnitude of issues on the new nation that others have. When you answer issues after being established for quite some time rarely do you take your nation in an ew direction. Most of the time, you are simply reaffirming the decisions you have made previously. For example, I take the stance that I want to employ people; when an issue where an option to increase employment comes along, I typically make the choice to employ people (keeping in mind other effects of course) which increases my employment. Over time, as I continue to come with issues related to employment, I will be able to make more choices that increase my nation's employment. Answering issues in this manner pushes you further in a direction and over time, this adds up.


Kindjal, like thousands to tens of thousands of others, was given the capacity to get this far, not the ability- that was all her. How did the other thousands do? Well you can see for yourself. The same thing can be said that commending for helping build the early SC would be unfair (see Topid), as not everyone was around for that; or that commending repelling a coup would be unfair, as not everyone was around for the coup. The reason we don't think that is because the nominees clearly strove far above their contemporaries, just like Kindjal.
Last edited by Bormiar on Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Excidium Planetis
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Ex-Nation

Postby Excidium Planetis » Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:48 pm

Praeceps wrote:You don't even have any stats in the top 1% so should we even be talking :p

I have never professed to be good at or even interested in the issues game. This nation was also a WA nation for a long time, and as you probably know, the WA messes with your nation's stats.

The effects of issues stack. I could create a new nation but no matter how well I answered issues for the first week, I wouldn't be able to pass Kindjal, PS, Ransium, myself in the rankings. That would be because I haven't answered the magnitude of issues on the new nation that others have. When you answer issues after being established for quite some time rarely do you take your nation in an ew direction. Most of the time, you are simply reaffirming the decisions you have made previously. For example, I take the stance that I want to employ people; when an issue where an option to increase employment comes along, I typically make the choice to employ people (keeping in mind other effects of course) which increases my employment. Over time, as I continue to come with issues related to employment, I will be able to make more choices that increase my nation's employment. Answering issues in this manner pushes you further in a direction and over time, this adds up.

It's also know that some issues have seriously dramatic effects, and that the more extreme a nation is the more small stat changes affect it. And there's been many new issues since Kindjal started. So either Kindjal was just really lucky or did a good job of predicting which new issue choices would keep them on the same path.
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News: None. Good, right?

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ArenaC
Envoy
 
Posts: 318
Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Left-Leaning College State

Postby ArenaC » Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:23 pm

This is a commendation for issue answering. What a joke.
Can someone give us something good next time?
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Bormiar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1265
Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Bormiar » Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:36 pm

ArenaC wrote:This is a commendation for issue answering. What a joke.
Can someone give us something good next time?

How condescending. If you don’t like what’s being passed, write something yourself.
Last edited by Bormiar on Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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