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by The United Provinces of Ireland » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:34 am
by FNU » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:34 am
MNIC wrote:As the new liberation comes closer and it is almost a guarantee that the The Union of the Axis Powers will be liberated, I am not fully ready to take a side. On one side, I worry if it ok to support a group of fascists that are against communist ideals, naming themselves after horrible people. I don't really want to support the Union, but on the other end of things, I don't like the SC being used to wage ideological warfare. The writer of the bill did not write a great bill, and is a communist(which I support more than fascists) looking to wage war on a region that has anti-communist manifestos. In other words, I don't like either option. However, I would be interested to hear the opinions of others, as the crown jewel of democracy is the opinions of the people.
by West Leas Oros 2 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:35 am
Bear Stearns wrote:West Leas Oros 2 wrote:But that said, physical violence and hating on the person instead of the idea is the wrong way to stop the spread of hateful ideologies.
It's why the war on Islamic terrorism has been a failure. If you think an ideology is your enemy, then you never defeat it and you be seeing that ideology everywhere.
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by Eternal Cesken » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:38 am
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Bear Stearns wrote:
It's why the war on Islamic terrorism has been a failure. If you think an ideology is your enemy, then you never defeat it and you be seeing that ideology everywhere.
Actually, the ideology IS the enemy. The problem is that we think that by attacking PEOPLE, we can somehow defeat the BELIEFS.
by West Leas Oros 2 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:39 am
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by Vidor » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:40 am
by West Leas Oros 2 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:41 am
Vidor wrote:quite frankly, the current Liberation proposal (which is now pointless as it seems to have already been raided it already by the factions who wanted it 'liberated') reads to me as completely tone-deaf. Their only real "wrong-doing" is that they have a relationship with failed coup'ers. Which isn't even expanded on, it's just assumed everyone is in the know, could it be just embassies with a region the members of it fled to? Who knows. And that they also have an "evil" ideology and don't deny it.
I feel that the only reason it was a liberation is probably because they were too insignificant and tiny for anything else and were simply just easy pickings for raiding and just happened to have a password at the time they wrote the proposal.
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by Panslav » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:41 am
by Bear Stearns » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:43 am
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Bear Stearns wrote:
It's why the war on Islamic terrorism has been a failure. If you think an ideology is your enemy, then you never defeat it and you be seeing that ideology everywhere.
Actually, the ideology IS the enemy. The problem is that we think that by attacking PEOPLE, we can somehow defeat the BELIEFS.
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:It's like murder. It's not enough to know that murder is wrong, we need to know WHY it's wrong. Same thing for fascism. We need to show people WHY it's wrong instead of throwing bricks at anyone that we so much as suspect is a fascist.
by Vidor » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:45 am
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Vidor wrote:quite frankly, the current Liberation proposal (which is now pointless as it seems to have already been raided it already by the factions who wanted it 'liberated') reads to me as completely tone-deaf. Their only real "wrong-doing" is that they have a relationship with failed coup'ers. Which isn't even expanded on, it's just assumed everyone is in the know, could it be just embassies with a region the members of it fled to? Who knows. And that they also have an "evil" ideology and don't deny it.
I feel that the only reason it was a liberation is probably because they were too insignificant and tiny for anything else and were simply just easy pickings for raiding and just happened to have a password at the time they wrote the proposal.
I mean, attempting to coup another region seems serious to me...
by West Leas Oros 2 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:45 am
Bear Stearns wrote:West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Actually, the ideology IS the enemy. The problem is that we think that by attacking PEOPLE, we can somehow defeat the BELIEFS.
Well the only to beat Islamic extremism out of the Middle East would be a decades-long campaign of nation-building, which would entail a brutal occupation and forever war. That idea hasn't seemed to work.West Leas Oros 2 wrote:It's like murder. It's not enough to know that murder is wrong, we need to know WHY it's wrong. Same thing for fascism. We need to show people WHY it's wrong instead of throwing bricks at anyone that we so much as suspect is a fascist.
Because throwing bricks at people is wrong.
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by Francois Isidore » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:45 am
by West Leas Oros 2 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:47 am
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by West Leas Oros 2 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:47 am
Francois Isidore wrote:Defending regions in which fascism is present, or defending the actual fascists themselves? Both are a strong no from me, but I’m curious as to what the question is specifying. Is it “morally okay”? No. But then again you don’t see it happening in the status quo anyhow. All and all, fascists (as well as regions in which fascism is present) deserve to be destroyed.
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by Bear Stearns » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:48 am
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Bear Stearns wrote:
Well the only to beat Islamic extremism out of the Middle East would be a decades-long campaign of nation-building, which would entail a brutal occupation and forever war. That idea hasn't seemed to work.
Because throwing bricks at people is wrong.
But WHY is throwing bricks at people wrong?
by West Leas Oros 2 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:50 am
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by Eternal Cesken » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:51 am
Panslav wrote:Question isn't "is it moral?", it's "is it righteous?".
It isn't. Oppression of the working class is never righteous, be it from fascists or the bourgeoisie.
by West Leas Oros 2 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:54 am
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by The Church of Satan » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:55 am
Bear Stearns wrote:Would you think it is okay to harm him?
by West Leas Oros 2 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:58 am
The Church of Satan wrote:Bear Stearns wrote:Would you think it is okay to harm him?
Depends on how far they take their beliefs. If they harm others in the pursuit of spreading their ideology, then it would be okay to harm them. In fact they would have earned such harm. Otherwise no.
Of course NationStates is different. Here many of us wish to wipe out fascism entirely from the site. So by being fascist, any such region is forfeit.
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by MNIC » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:58 am
The Church of Satan wrote:Bear Stearns wrote:Would you think it is okay to harm him?
Depends on how far they take their beliefs. If they harm others in the pursuit of spreading their ideology, then it would be okay to harm them. In fact they would have earned such harm. Otherwise no.
Of course NationStates is different. Here many of us wish to wipe out fascism entirely from the site. So by being fascist, any such region is forfeit.
by Stateless Territories » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:59 am
by MNIC » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:02 pm
Stateless Territories wrote:As democratic socialist, I believe everyone has right to have their voice heard. However, as a Buddhist, I also recognize fascism as negative ideology.
by The Church of Satan » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:33 pm
MNIC wrote:But then every certain person decides what is negative. That is the problem, as every person who wants to be good has a different opinion
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