LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

[Kowani]

Yeah, that’s partly because the bad things in question tend to lead to people dying.

Like, I’m not gonna dance on Peterson’s hospital bed, but I can see why if he had a GoFundMe, it probably wouldn’t make it’s quota.

It'd probably would, he had/has a large following.

Okay, true.

Perhaps if we only asked leftists to donate though, at least those who were aware of who he was...

[Novus America]

There has never been a successful one because it does not work. Luxembourgism was a failure.

Your first sentence is an oxymoron, so I can't comment. Luxemburgism was not a failure. Rosa was shot in Berlin in 1919 at the prime of her life.

Every attempt has failed. Marx was completely wrong on many things, and his ideology totalitarian. If the left wants to advance it has to stop clinging dogmatically to a failed Victorian ideology and try something new.

Lenin, Stalin, and Mao were, to varying degrees, totalitarians. Marx and Engels were libertarian communists. They supported socialism from below.

Some his observations regarding the situation in the early to mid 1800s Germany and Britain were correct, others completely wrong, and his prescriptions on how to fix it absurdly unrealistic.

Marx was not an infallible religious leader. He was the founder of a revolutionary movement.

The thing is it is not only me! It is most people of the world. Because very few people believe in your ideology, you have to change their minds to agree with it, or you will never get anywhere.

Truth is not determined by numbers; and revolution is not a struggle for ideas.

Something that does not work because it is fundamentally flawed will not work just because you keep trying.
And getting shot because you attempt at revolution failed is a failure.

Good you recognize Marx was often wrong, but then the question because men’s why is the movement he created the one to follow?

And yes his ideology is totalitarian as it is supposedly all encompassing and does not leave room for other ideologies. It seeks to be the only one.

Finally truth may not be a matter of numbers, but getting people to believe the truth is. Not that you can say you ideology is the truth, ideologies are not a quest for trut.

And absolutely revolution is a struggle for ideas. If your ideas cannot win the struggle they will never come into being.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Tbh that's what I don't like about a lot of the online Left is that it views people who have done bad things as almost subhuman and unworthy of empathy in a way that is actually very neo-conservative.

Yeah, that’s partly because the bad things in question tend to lead to people dying.

Like, I’m not gonna dance on Peterson’s hospital bed, but I can see why if he had a GoFundMe, it probably wouldn’t make it’s quota.

If we're willing to say that murderers should be treated humanely, the same should go for demagogues.

[Ostroeuropa]

Holy fuck, actually do feel really bad for him.

Yeah. Some folks are shitposting about it and I can't blame them, given how poisonous Peterson and his fandom have been at times for online discourse, but it's hard for me not to empathize with a man who's apparently going through some horrible stuff. Stuff born from mental illness and drug addiction, neither of which are moral failings regardless of who he is and what he's said and done beyond that.

He managed to get a following largely by not being hostile to most of the population and acknowledging their issues exist. I strongly disagree with his proposed solutions and framework, but he's preferable to the progressive left in that regard.

If the tired old "Bootstraps, think positive" routine can cause an immediate cult status by merging it with "Fuck the progressives", you really should evaluate just how little hope there is for the intersectional left to gain victories in future.

[Valrifell]

Yeah. Some folks are shitposting about it and I can't blame them, given how poisonous Peterson and his fandom have been at times for online discourse, but it's hard for me not to empathize with a man who's apparently going through some horrible stuff. Stuff born from mental illness and drug addiction, neither of which are moral failings regardless of who he is and what he's said and done beyond that.

He managed to get a following largely by not being hostile to most of the population and acknowledging their issues exist. I strongly disagree with his proposed solutions and framework, but he's preferable to the progressive left in that regard.

If the tired old "Bootstraps, think positive" routine can cause an immediate cult status by merging it with "Fuck the progressives", you really should evaluate just how little hope there is for the intersectional left to gain victories in future.

I'd wager that most philosophies mixed with "fuck the progressives" will gain a following online, especially if it's as feel-good as "bootstraps, think positive."

He's also extremely hostile to the poor and regularly blames them for their own mistreatment. Weird that you'd casually discard that funny little part of his philosophy...

[Rojava Free State]

Tbh that's what I don't like about a lot of the online Left is that it views people who have done bad things as almost subhuman and unworthy of empathy in a way that is actually very neo-conservative.

Yeah, that’s partly because the bad things in question tend to lead to people dying.

Like, I’m not gonna dance on Peterson’s hospital bed, but I can see why if he had a GoFundMe, it probably wouldn’t make it’s quota.

What has peterson done that actually led to people dying? I don't agree with all of his ideas, but how messed up does someone have to be to wish death on a person for having different ideas than they do? I won't donate to Peterson only because I'm dead broke, but it I was set economically, I would totally send at least a couple hundred dollars.

[Liriena]

Yeah. Some folks are shitposting about it and I can't blame them, given how poisonous Peterson and his fandom have been at times for online discourse, but it's hard for me not to empathize with a man who's apparently going through some horrible stuff. Stuff born from mental illness and drug addiction, neither of which are moral failings regardless of who he is and what he's said and done beyond that.

He managed to get a following largely by not being hostile to most of the population and acknowledging their issues exist. I strongly disagree with his proposed solutions and framework, but he's preferable to the progressive left in that regard.

If the tired old "Bootstraps, think positive" routine can cause an immediate cult status by merging it with "Fuck the progressives", you really should evaluate just how little hope there is for the intersectional left to gain victories in future.

The one problem I see with your argument is that he originally became famous by lying about trans rights. Your mileage may vary on his particular brand of anti-progressive propaganda after that, but he didn't start to get a following by acknowleding the issues of "most". He started to get a following by jumping on the anti-trans hysteria train. And while I know and understand your opposition to progressivism, I don't imagine that you have the same negative views about trans rights.

[Cisairse]

Both. I've seen alt-right memes about how the riot at the end of the film was a depiction of the "day of the rope" that the alt-right has been prophesizing for years.

Other days will come before the "day of the rope", such as the Day of the Rake or the Day of the Reuben Sandwich.

Apparently in Omaha that's just March 14th.

Other days will come before the "day of the rope", such as the Day of the Rake or the Day of the Reuben Sandwich.

rake in the lake
rake in the lake
rake in the lake

underrated post

[Dumb Ideologies]

Peterson's politics are yawnsome classical liberal retreads, but his influence hasn't all been bad, and it's not been all that significant in the grand scheme of things. His guidance helped a lot of young men clean their rooms. Since his ideologies were already in wider circulation, his absence would only have meant that other people with similar messages would have been slightly more popular. Take the opportunity to clean your online contacts of the gauche hypocrites who have publicly announced themselves through their comments on the topic, then move along.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Peterson's politics are yawnsome classical liberal retreads, but his influence hasn't all been bad, and it's not been all that significant in the grand scheme of things. His guidance helped a lot of young men clean their rooms. Since his ideologies were already in wider circulation, his absence would only have meant that other people with similar messages would have been slightly more popular. Take the opportunity to clean your online contacts of the gauche hypocrites who have publicly announced themselves through their comments on the topic, then move along.

That's true. Regardless what one might think of his politics, and there are plenty of holes to poke in them. His self-help and life skills advice seem to be mostly sound.

[Cappuccina]

Peterson's politics are yawnsome classical liberal retreads, but his influence hasn't all been bad, and it's not been all that significant in the grand scheme of things. His guidance helped a lot of young men clean their rooms. Since his ideologies were already in wider circulation, his absence would only have meant that other people with similar messages would have been slightly more popular. Take the opportunity to clean your online contacts of the gauche hypocrites who have publicly announced themselves through their comments on the topic, then move along.

That's true. Regardless what one might think of his politics, and there are plenty of holes to poke in them. His self-help and life skills advice seem to be mostly sound.

His position on transfolk notwithstanding, he's a rather good role model for young men in a generation where masculinity is attacked and hated.

[Rojava Free State]

That's true. Regardless what one might think of his politics, and there are plenty of holes to poke in them. His self-help and life skills advice seem to be mostly sound.

His position on transfolk notwithstanding, he's a rather good role model for young men in a generation where masculinity is attacked and hated.

The western world is definitely suffering a masculinity crisis, with many young men either becoming totally weak willed, or going to the opposite extreme and becoming out of control, violent animals that think being a misogynistic piece of dog shit and a repeat offender makes one a man. Throwing your girlfriend down a flight of stairs doesn't make you a man. Letting your girlfriend throw you down a flight of stairs also doesn't make you a man. Unfortunately we've lost the knowledge of what makes someone masculine. Some have given up even trying and others have a very twisted view of the subject. At least Jordan Peterrson is trying to answer this question

[Rojava Free State]

Yeah, that’s partly because the bad things in question tend to lead to people dying.

Like, I’m not gonna dance on Peterson’s hospital bed, but I can see why if he had a GoFundMe, it probably wouldn’t make it’s quota.

If we're willing to say that murderers should be treated humanely, the same should go for demagogues.

Let's not forget that part of the reason trump is president is because people have lost the ability to see the humanity in folks they don't agree with. We can't succumb to the same hate and start hoping for the worst for people whose views don't match our own

[Fahran]

that's what I don't like about a lot of the online Left is that it views people who have done bad things as almost subhuman and unworthy of empathy in a way that is actually very neo-conservative.

^ I pretty much agree with this. It's bizarre to me that conservative pundits and billionaires are often met with more venom than terrorists, murderers, and pedophiles by some, to the extent that we've actually had to close threads about the deaths of the former because large portions of our own community were actively engaging in bad behavior. It's nasty and should be called out when it occurs.

[Ostroeuropa]

that's what I don't like about a lot of the online Left is that it views people who have done bad things as almost subhuman and unworthy of empathy in a way that is actually very neo-conservative.

^ I pretty much agree with this. It's bizarre to me that conservative pundits and billionaires are often met with more venom than terrorists, murderers, and pedophiles by some, to the extent that we've actually had to close threads about the deaths of the former because large portions of our own community were actively engaging in bad behavior. It's nasty and should be called out when it occurs.

The movement of those types is built on finding excuses to hate people and lack empathy for them. They have entire theories dedicated to it. Ancillary activities including gaslighting their targets into questioning their own sanity by doing things like attacking people, being hateful at them because they belong to an outgroup (either a political outgroup or a demographic outgroup) then saying "When you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression", the function of which is purely to gaslight the target.

It's also why they push the privilege+power idea. Because if you simply assert a definition of a thing as excluding what you're doing to someone they can't call a spade a spade, it's also another aspect of them gaslighting people. The reason they assert this is that it gives them license to behave abusively sexist and racist to people and then deny they are doing it, and that is what they want to do because it emotionally satisfies them and they get high off being cruel to others but want to be psychologically protected from acknowledging the kind of person this makes them. The peterson case is an example of them enjoying cruelty.

This is also why there is no solidarity for former "Allies" and why they turn on eachother at the drop of a hat. it's not about ideas, it's about being cruel and destroying others while providing a veneer of justification for it juuuuuust convincing enough to stand up to a moments scrutiny, but any further scrutiny can be treated as hostile and makes a person fair game.

I'm completely serious when I suggest we need to deal with this movement and shut it down. They're engaged in widespread, systemic psychological and social abuse of a big part of the population, and use sophistry and rationalization to avoid confronting this about themselves. The consequences are worsening societal misandry and anti-white racism as well as an overall polarization and toxification of discourse. They have given credence to the far-right and their narrative and caused a surge in its popularity, and so on.

[Ostroeuropa]

His position on transfolk notwithstanding, he's a rather good role model for young men in a generation where masculinity is attacked and hated.

The western world is definitely suffering a masculinity crisis, with many young men either becoming totally weak willed, or going to the opposite extreme and becoming out of control, violent animals that think being a misogynistic piece of dog shit and a repeat offender makes one a man. Throwing your girlfriend down a flight of stairs doesn't make you a man. Letting your girlfriend throw you down a flight of stairs also doesn't make you a man. Unfortunately we've lost the knowledge of what makes someone masculine. Some have given up even trying and others have a very twisted view of the subject. At least Jordan Peterrson is trying to answer this question

They're taught to be weakwilled by a feminist society that continues to push them and psychologically abuse them, cause major social ills while refusing to take responsibility for it and instead blaming men for them and escalating continuously. When men stand up for themselves they get pilloried or treated as evil, until many of them snap and throw a woman down the stairs.

This dynamic is the basic observation of the manosphere in general and its various schools of thought for determining why this happens.

The "Masculinity crisis" has started due to feminist activists push for single-motherhood and to demonize fathers while pursuing biased court systems and so on, coupled with this;

https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/boys-do ... -1.4693208

Removing the only stable parent from a home who won't psychologically abuse boys and will teach them to express emotion in a healthy manner has led to this crisis.

The issue of single motherhood being normalized and womens contributions to societal discourse on gender dynamics being taken as gospel with mens input being viciously suppressed also helped create the Nice Guy and subsequent Incel phenomena, which is now likewise blamed on men because of a fundamental unwillingness of most feminists to self-evaluate.

In their fit of narcissistic self-indulgence brought about by feminist theory, generations of women have told boys that they "just need to be nice", because obviously women unlike those nasty evil men don't go in for things like, you know, being sexually attractive, that's "Objectifying".

In addition, feminist activism to discuss masculinity purely in negative (And often double-binding) terms and in terms of how it relates to women has been destructive and produced an overall passivity in men.

[Liriena]

Peterson's politics are yawnsome classical liberal retreads, but his influence hasn't all been bad, and it's not been all that significant in the grand scheme of things. His guidance helped a lot of young men clean their rooms. Since his ideologies were already in wider circulation, his absence would only have meant that other people with similar messages would have been slightly more popular.

I partially agree with this, but I don't think he would have been as easily replaceable as, say, Charlie Kirk or Steven Crowder. I think Peterson's biggest advantage as a right-wing online grifter was his academic credentials. The guy is an actual professor with actual demonstrable expertise in a specific field. The right-wing online grifter economy is filled with pretentious wannabe thinkers, but pretty much none of them actually had the education to credibly pretend to be scholars until Peterson came along. Most classical liberal grifters are just moral and intellectual cowards or narcissistic idiots. I don't necessarily get either vibe from Peterson. At least when he's talking about self-care, he seems to genuinely care, even if he's waaaaaaaay too over the top about it at times, as he is with most things.

Speaking of easily replaceable... Tim Pool? At this point I don't even care about his personal politics and his relationship with the right. I'm just professionally infuriated by his unending laziness. His Timcast content is almost indistinguishable from Lowder with Crowder beyond his "serious liberal journalist" aesthetic.

[Rojava Free State]

The western world is definitely suffering a masculinity crisis, with many young men either becoming totally weak willed, or going to the opposite extreme and becoming out of control, violent animals that think being a misogynistic piece of dog shit and a repeat offender makes one a man. Throwing your girlfriend down a flight of stairs doesn't make you a man. Letting your girlfriend throw you down a flight of stairs also doesn't make you a man. Unfortunately we've lost the knowledge of what makes someone masculine. Some have given up even trying and others have a very twisted view of the subject. At least Jordan Peterrson is trying to answer this question

They're taught to be weakwilled by a feminist society that continues to push them and psychologically abuse them, cause major social ills while refusing to take responsibility for it and instead blaming men for them and escalating continuously. When men stand up for themselves they get pilloried or treated as evil, until many of them snap and throw a woman down the stairs.

This dynamic is the basic observation of the manosphere in general and its various schools of thought for determining why this happens.

The "Masculinity crisis" has started due to feminist activists push for single-motherhood and to demonize fathers while pursuing biased court systems and so on, coupled with this;

https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/boys-do ... -1.4693208

Removing the only stable parent from a home who won't psychologically abuse boys and will teach them to express emotion in a healthy manner has led to this crisis.

The issue of single motherhood being normalized and womens contributions to societal discourse on gender dynamics being taken as gospel with mens input being viciously suppressed also helped create the Nice Guy and subsequent Incel phenomena, which is now likewise blamed on men because of a fundamental unwillingness of most feminists to self-evaluate.

In their fit of narcissistic self-indulgence brought about by feminist theory, generations of women have told boys that they "just need to be nice", because obviously women unlike those nasty evil men don't go in for things like, you know, being sexually attractive, that's "Objectifying".

In addition, feminist activism to discuss masculinity purely in negative (And often double-binding) terms and in terms of how it relates to women has been destructive and produced an overall passivity in men.

Some men are just sexist and/or violent. There's no excuse for it even if these third wave feminists have a hatred for anything male. When I see a site like return of kings pushing for "female submissiveness" and celebrating the "pickup artist" (glorified sexual predator), I can see men are becoming polarized into two camps, the cucks and the caveman. The cucks are a bunch of sensitive weaklings that need mom and dad to do everything for them and who won't stand up for themselves ever. The cavemen are a mindless horde of screeching howling animals who think that if they just get violent and crazy enough, women will say "look how masculine he is! Hes so handsome!" In reality, the only thing people say when they see a gang of proud boys or even worse, unite the right, is "what a bunch of assholes. Looks like the monkeys escaped the zoo again!" Being an out of control dick doesn't make one a man. It just means they're heading down the road toward prison, serious injury or death on cruise control

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Something that does not work because it is fundamentally flawed will not work just because you keep trying.
And getting shot because you attempt at revolution failed is a failure.

That is not an argument.

Good you recognize Marx was often wrong, but then the question because men’s why is the movement he created the one to follow?

I am a Marxist because I despise oppression and authoritarianism. I want to live in a world of peace, social justice, and classlessness.

And yes his ideology is totalitarian as it is supposedly all encompassing and does not leave room for other ideologies. It seeks to be the only one.

Can you provide me with a quotation from Marx's writings in which he argues for totalitarianism? (Hint: There are no such quotations.)

Finally truth may not be a matter of numbers, but getting people to believe the truth is. Not that you can say you ideology is the truth, ideologies are not a quest for trut.

And absolutely revolution is a struggle for ideas. If your ideas cannot win the struggle they will never come into being.

If you are interested in struggling for your ideas, you are certainly free to do so.

[Ostroeuropa]

They're taught to be weakwilled by a feminist society that continues to push them and psychologically abuse them, cause major social ills while refusing to take responsibility for it and instead blaming men for them and escalating continuously. When men stand up for themselves they get pilloried or treated as evil, until many of them snap and throw a woman down the stairs.

This dynamic is the basic observation of the manosphere in general and its various schools of thought for determining why this happens.

The "Masculinity crisis" has started due to feminist activists push for single-motherhood and to demonize fathers while pursuing biased court systems and so on, coupled with this;

https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/boys-do ... -1.4693208

Removing the only stable parent from a home who won't psychologically abuse boys and will teach them to express emotion in a healthy manner has led to this crisis.

The issue of single motherhood being normalized and womens contributions to societal discourse on gender dynamics being taken as gospel with mens input being viciously suppressed also helped create the Nice Guy and subsequent Incel phenomena, which is now likewise blamed on men because of a fundamental unwillingness of most feminists to self-evaluate.

In their fit of narcissistic self-indulgence brought about by feminist theory, generations of women have told boys that they "just need to be nice", because obviously women unlike those nasty evil men don't go in for things like, you know, being sexually attractive, that's "Objectifying".

In addition, feminist activism to discuss masculinity purely in negative (And often double-binding) terms and in terms of how it relates to women has been destructive and produced an overall passivity in men.

Some men are just sexist and/or violent. There's no excuse for it even if these third wave feminists have a hatred for anything male. When I see a site like return of kings pushing for "female submissiveness" and celebrating the "pickup artist" (glorified sexual predator), I can see men are becoming polarized into two camps, the cucks and the caveman. The cucks are a bunch of sensitive weaklings that need mom and dad to do everything for them and who won't stand up for themselves ever. The cavemen are a mindless horde of screeching howling animals who think that if they just get violent and crazy enough, women will say "look how masculine he is! Hes so handsome!" In reality, the only thing people say when they see a gang of proud boys or even worse, unite the right, is "what a bunch of assholes. Looks like the monkeys escaped the zoo again!" Being an out of control dick doesn't make one a man. It just means they're heading down the road toward prison, serious injury or death on cruise control

There's MGTOW and the MRM as an alternative. Arguably blackpill theory too.

I think you're not understanding that ROK serves as dogwhistling.

"If we ask women to stop being oppressive, maybe they will." - MRM
"If we talk at women about how they should submit, maybe they will" - Red Pill
"They're not going to listen. Your options are subjugate, or be subjugated. You cannot simply ask someone to treat you fairly and use mere words to force that to happen. Violence resolves issues. If I start punching you, and am determined to keep doing it, your words mean nothing. Women must be brought to heel through overwhelming and widespread violence." - Black pill

The polarization you describe occurring aligns with the black pill narrative.
You have two choices, submit, or fight for control.

It is predicated on the failure of discourse to achieve results for men.

Incidentally the first study on the manospheric factions relative recruitment and trends and so on was done.

They found that the mens rights movement recruitment has stalled as of around 2019 as its oldest members from the Farrell generation have started dying off. Radical black pill groups have picked up the uptick in recruitment.

TRP "Caveman" stuff is the acceptable face of; "We should bomb university gender studies lectures" and a radicalization process for that ideology.

The assertion of biological realities causing sexism despite no evidence for that is not so much a declaration of beliefs or fact, but a declaration that discourse is pointless and that you have no intention to engage in it except as a tool to dehumanize an outgroup and thus lay the groundwork for violence. The red pill ideology exists in a superposition of being simultaneously two things at once. It is a description of many mens issues and experiences and why this makes women terrible, while also a means of explaining them *and* why discourse has failed to resolve them (Framed through the issue of sex and sexuality, primarily to recruit younger men.), but it is also a series of invitations to extremism and violence.

The empirical study suggested an overall trajectory in the manosphere; MGTOW/Red pill to Black Pill over time.

"The reason that group behave that way is biology, nothing we can do about it. Pay no attention to the group over there discussing how this means we need to violently exterminate them, we're not like them. We simply want you to accept its biological, and also, to normalize contempt for them while encouraging you to gradually escalate on your psychological and social attacks on them until you can't escalate socially or psychologically anymore.".

[Liriena]

In other news, the online Argentine right-wing's reaction to Fernández's anti-denialism bill ended up being a huge self-own. They committed so hard to openly denying or condoning the military dictatorship's crimes, in lieu of the free speech angle, that they lost control of the online discourse almost overnight.

[Rojava Free State]

In other news, the online Argentine right-wing's reaction to Fernández's anti-denialism bill ended up being a huge self-own. They committed so hard to openly denying or condoning the military dictatorship's crimes, in lieu of the free speech angle, that they lost control of the online discourse almost overnight.

Argentina is a better place now that the military government is gone

[Proctopeo]

In other news, the online Argentine right-wing's reaction to Fernández's anti-denialism bill ended up being a huge self-own. They committed so hard to openly denying or condoning the military dictatorship's crimes, in lieu of the free speech angle, that they lost control of the online discourse almost overnight.

As I said, the free speech angle would've made it very easy to portray Fernandez as the bad guy.

[Liriena]

In other news, the online Argentine right-wing's reaction to Fernández's anti-denialism bill ended up being a huge self-own. They committed so hard to openly denying or condoning the military dictatorship's crimes, in lieu of the free speech angle, that they lost control of the online discourse almost overnight.

As I said, the free speech angle would've made it very easy to portray Fernandez as the bad guy.

The thing about the Argentine right-wing is that they're incredibly bad at hiding their "power level" and dog-whistling. Very few of them even try to go for the "classical liberal" aesthetic, and even fewer ever manage to maintain it for long before they start to talk about how police states are good actually. It's the perfect combination of lack of self-awareness, incompetence and having a truly dogshit worldview that only the worst boomers and young adult failsons embrace.

That said, many of us are getting increasingly worried about the rapid growth of Evangelical Christianity. It's giving us pre-Bolsonaro Brazil vibes.

[Ostroeuropa]

In other news, the online Argentine right-wing's reaction to Fernández's anti-denialism bill ended up being a huge self-own. They committed so hard to openly denying or condoning the military dictatorship's crimes, in lieu of the free speech angle, that they lost control of the online discourse almost overnight.

"We shouldn't ban holocaust denial. Free speech is good."
"That's right, people need to hear the truth about how the holocaust is an Israeli conspiracy."
"Case in point, now you know not to vote for that party."