LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

[Cisairse]

Kinda fascinating that this year two of the big favourites at the Oscars are explicitly left-wing movies about class struggle.

If it comes down to Parasite and Joker, I hope Parasite wins Best Picture, Best Director and Best editing, because it's just so much more polished and original than Joker. That said, I still stan Joker as probably the best gateway for normies and memelords that the cinematic left could have ever asked for. Todd Phillips has no subtlety whatsoever and that's gonna go a long way into getting the movie's themes through casual moviegoers' skulls.

Joker has already been co-opted as an alt-right meme

[Kowani]

I agree with some of Marx's ideas but disagree with others. In my ideal world, we wouldn't strip you of all your money and collectivize your property and money earned would be money possessed. But we wouldn't allow the rich to decide all of our policies as a nation. We wouldn't have a criminal justice system that lets R Kelly and Jeff Epstein off the hook for decades while Eric from the Bronx goes to jail for some marijuana in his pocket. We wouldn't wage wars for economic interests (and probably wouldn't wage wars very much at all unless someone attacked us). We also sure as fuck wouldn't allow big business near our government not only because they corrupt it for their own gain, but because China has been increasingly pulling th strings of corporations in america, and if you think I don't like greedy fat cats, that emotion can't even compare to what I think of the CCP

Part of Marx’s problems is the world has changed so much. His view was through the lens of his personal failure to live up to the expectations of 1800s Prussia, which no longer even exists.
He even admitted he knew very little about Asia, and that his model was Eurocentric.

His focus on labor fails to account for productivity gains from automation and the ideas based economy.

And ultimately his biggest failure was to try to create a universal (and totalitarian) explanation for all human development in all societies, and a one size fits all solution.

Are corrupt and greedy globalist elites a problem? Absolutely. But they are not the only problem, and nor do all societies need to do the same things, and the same policies to limit their influence build something better.

”Marx didn’t account for automation”

[Novus America]

Part of Marx’s problems is the world has changed so much. His view was through the lens of his personal failure to live up to the expectations of 1800s Prussia, which no longer even exists.
He even admitted he knew very little about Asia, and that his model was Eurocentric.

His focus on labor fails to account for productivity gains from automation and the ideas based economy.

And ultimately his biggest failure was to try to create a universal (and totalitarian) explanation for all human development in all societies, and a one size fits all solution.

Are corrupt and greedy globalist elites a problem? Absolutely. But they are not the only problem, and nor do all societies need to do the same things, and the same policies to limit their influence build something better.

[img=https://urpe.wordpress.com/2018/05/20/marx-on-automation/amp/]”Marx didn’t account for automation”[/img]

Well that was early machinery which he did not interpret properly. This assumes that machinery equals automation.
The types of machines he was referring to were quite different and he got their impact wrong.

Specifically he fails to account for productivity improvements from automation, which of course allow people to produce more value per man hour expended, thus completely undermining his argument that rates of profit should fall. After all if rates of profits should fall, why are corporate profits at an all time high?

The problem, beyond his own mistakes about his own time period and place, which were created from his limited personal experience and colored by his personal failures, no longer exists as the global political and economic system has dramatically changed.

He of course failed to predict or understand the massive improvements in living standards that would happen in the next century, because if he did, his entire argument that capitalism had reached its end stage and their should be a revolution then would be completely undermined.

Which of course they were.

[Liriena]

Kinda fascinating that this year two of the big favourites at the Oscars are explicitly left-wing movies about class struggle.

If it comes down to Parasite and Joker, I hope Parasite wins Best Picture, Best Director and Best editing, because it's just so much more polished and original than Joker. That said, I still stan Joker as probably the best gateway for normies and memelords that the cinematic left could have ever asked for. Todd Phillips has no subtlety whatsoever and that's gonna go a long way into getting the movie's themes through casual moviegoers' skulls.

Joker has already been co-opted as an alt-right meme

The movie or the character?

I can kind of imagine alt-righters co-opting it because they have a talent for missing the obvious point of the cultural products they consume.

[North German Realm]

Joker has already been co-opted as an alt-right meme

The movie or the character?

I can kind of imagine alt-righters co-opting it because they have a talent for missing the obvious point of the cultural products they consume.

Honestly the day they coopted Deadpool, of all characters, for their "I'm intentionally offensive and I insult your gender, ARE YOU TRIGGERED SNOWFLAKE" meme was the day I gave up on humanity

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

Joker has already been co-opted as an alt-right meme

The movie or the character?

I can kind of imagine alt-righters co-opting it because they have a talent for missing the obvious point of the cultural products they consume.

They’re probably also too tone deaf to get the motives and overall point behind the actions of the characters they try to co-opt.

[Dumb Ideologies]

The alt-right try to co-opt everything but man can't live for long on memes alone.

[North German Realm]

The movie or the character?

I can kind of imagine alt-righters co-opting it because they have a talent for missing the obvious point of the cultural products they consume.

They’re probably also too tone deaf to get the motives and overall point behind the actions of the characters they try to co-opt.

Idk, they understand the character of Joker pretty well. An abusive, murderous asshole who ruins the life of every person he ever encounters, who tries to destroy entire worlds' livelihoods, and then pretends to not understand what's going on (and plead criminal insanity, something that we know he fakes in canon) to get away with everything he's gone through with nothing more than a heavy beatdown and a proverbial slap on the wrist; which he does thanks to people that beat him, talk really loud about how they fixed everything by beating him, and won't ever really even think about eliminating him because he's what gives them their job.

[Proctopeo]

Joker has already been co-opted as an alt-right meme

The movie or the character?

I can kind of imagine alt-righters co-opting it because they have a talent for missing the obvious point of the cultural products they consume.

From what I've seen from the alt-right, they did mostly understand the point of Joker (2019); at least, significantly more than, well, the out-of-touch tone deaf late-night talk show types.

I suppose that something about the common man being spat on and reviled by those with power and influence resonated with them on a personal level.

[Liriena]

In other news, I finally found out why Jordan Peterson seemed to disappear from the discourse for so long... aaaaaand now I'm feeling an avalanche of unironic sympathy for him because it sounds like he's in a really fucked up situation. Someone please go pick him up and send him to Slovenia so he can crash Zizek's couch until he gets better.

[United Muscovite Nations]

In other news, I finally found out why Jordan Peterson seemed to disappear from the discourse for so long... aaaaaand now I'm feeling an avalanche of unironic sympathy for him because it sounds like he's in a really fucked up situation. Someone please go pick him up and send him to Slovenia so he can crash Zizek's couch until he gets better.

Holy fuck, actually do feel really bad for him.

[Liriena]

In other news, I finally found out why Jordan Peterson seemed to disappear from the discourse for so long... aaaaaand now I'm feeling an avalanche of unironic sympathy for him because it sounds like he's in a really fucked up situation. Someone please go pick him up and send him to Slovenia so he can crash Zizek's couch until he gets better.

Holy fuck, actually do feel really bad for him.

Yeah. Some folks are shitposting about it and I can't blame them, given how poisonous Peterson and his fandom have been at times for online discourse, but it's hard for me not to empathize with a man who's apparently going through some horrible stuff. Stuff born from mental illness and drug addiction, neither of which are moral failings regardless of who he is and what he's said and done beyond that.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Holy fuck, actually do feel really bad for him.

Yeah. Some folks are shitposting about it and I can't blame them, given how poisonous Peterson and his fandom have been at times for online discourse, but it's hard for me not to empathize with a man who's apparently going through some horrible stuff. Stuff born from mental illness and drug addiction, neither of which are moral failings regardless of who he is and what he's said and done beyond that.

Tbh that's what I don't like about a lot of the online Left is that it views people who have done bad things as almost subhuman and unworthy of empathy in a way that is actually very neo-conservative.

[Genivaria]

In other news, I finally found out why Jordan Peterson seemed to disappear from the discourse for so long... aaaaaand now I'm feeling an avalanche of unironic sympathy for him because it sounds like he's in a really fucked up situation. Someone please go pick him up and send him to Slovenia so he can crash Zizek's couch until he gets better.

Holy fuck, actually do feel really bad for him.

I hate what he says and his following but addiction isn't a joke, especially fucking Tranquilizer addiction holy shit.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Here is my revised Marxian model of the 21ˢᵗ–century global social class system:

Bourgeosie: As a plutocracy and an oligarchy, capitalists socially, politically, and culturally dominate the capitalist world–system or global intersectionality. This capitalist social class includes, in the U.S., some members of the upper lower class (old money) and some of the lower upper class (new money or nouveaux riches).

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Patriciate: These patricians are independently wealthy non–capitalists. Rich, non–working aristocrats, in countries which still have monarchies and royal families, would be considered under this social class. Patricians also include, in the U.S., some of the upper upper and lower upper classes.

-------------------------

Proletariat: In the 19ᵗʰ century, “Proletariat” was brilliantly owned, rescued, or emancipated by Marx from the Latin “prōlētāriusm” “having offspring” or, loosely, “baby factories.” Prōlētārius was originally an aspersion used by snobbish plutocrats in the Roman Empire. In this model, however, the Proletariat includes any class-conscious worker who is not a capitalist, a patrician, or a member of the Lumpenproletariat. The class also includes retired and temporarily unemployed Proletarians. The Proletariat is the vanguard. It is not an élite class. The varguard refers to class–conscious workers who will, ultimately, work to emancipate the Lumpenproletariat and promote the revolution. At some point, hopefully, all Lumpenproletarians will become Proletarians.

Class–Conscious Wealthy Non–Capitalist Workers: Top–level celebrities, sports stars, affluent nonworking people, some of the upper and lower upper classes in the U.S., etc. are included in this class. They need to work for a living. Because these people are not independently wealthy, they are not patricians.

Class–Conscious Intelligentsia: It is the professional class of individuals with an advanced education and, usually, a doctoral degree. The members of the class include professors and intellectuals in general, physicians, attorneys, anyone with an earned doctoral degree, and others or, in the U.S., the upper middle class.

Class–Conscious Managerial Class: This class of executives and bosses can be called white collar or, in the U.S., the middle class or the lower middle class. However, it also includes some members of the upper classes.

Class–Conscious Working Class: The petite–bourgeosie, blue–collar factory workers, working peasants, the working poor, police officers, construction workers, fire fighters, the upper lower class in the U.S., etc. make up this social class.

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Lumpenproletariat: This term literally translates, from the German, as “shabby Proletariat.” Marx characterized as, in effect, “lowlifes.” In this model, the Lumpenproletariat refers to workers with false consciousness, i.e., lacking emancipation. The class also includes retired and temporarily unemployed Lumpenproletarians.

False–Conscious Wealthy Non–Capitalist Workers: Top–level celebrities, sports stars, affluent nonworking people, some of the upper and lower upper classes in the U.S., etc. are included in this class. They need to work for a living. Because these people are not independently wealthy, they are not patricians.

False–Conscious Intelligentsia: It is the professional class of individuals with an advanced education and, usually, a doctoral degree. The members of the class include professors and intellectuals in general, physicians, attorneys, anyone with an earned doctoral degree, and others or, in the U.S., the upper middle class.

False–Conscious Managerial Class: This class of executives and bosses can be called white collar or, in the U.S., the middle class or the lower middle class. However, it also includes some members of the upper classes.

False–Conscious Working Class: The petite–bourgeosie, blue–collar factory workers, working peasants, the working poor, police officers, construction workers, fire fighters, the upper lower class in the U.S., etc. make up this social class.

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Subaltern: This term was used by Antonio Gramsci for the truly marginalized members of societies. A similar Marxian construct, the wretched of the Earth, was discussed by Frantz Fanon. The subaltern includes: homeless people, slaves, indentured servants, long–term inmates of prisons and psychiatric hospitals, the lower lower class in the U.S., etc.

Ṭarīqaẗ ʾal•Bāhuwiyyaẗ of The Multiversal Communist Collective

[Democratic Communist Federation]

I agree with some of Marx's ideas but disagree with others.

Being a Marxist does not require that one believes in all of Marx's ideas. We all have different ideas. Being a Marxist is having a Marxian praxis (theoretically informed practice).

[Democratic Communist Federation]

There has never been a successful one because it does not work. Luxembourgism was a failure.

Your first sentence is an oxymoron, so I can't comment. Luxemburgism was not a failure. Rosa was shot in Berlin in 1919 at the prime of her life.

Every attempt has failed. Marx was completely wrong on many things, and his ideology totalitarian. If the left wants to advance it has to stop clinging dogmatically to a failed Victorian ideology and try something new.

Lenin, Stalin, and Mao were, to varying degrees, totalitarians. Marx and Engels were libertarian communists. They supported socialism from below.

Some his observations regarding the situation in the early to mid 1800s Germany and Britain were correct, others completely wrong, and his prescriptions on how to fix it absurdly unrealistic.

Marx was not an infallible religious leader. He was the founder of a revolutionary movement.

The thing is it is not only me! It is most people of the world. Because very few people believe in your ideology, you have to change their minds to agree with it, or you will never get anywhere.

Truth is not determined by numbers; and revolution is not a struggle for ideas.

[Cisairse]

Joker has already been co-opted as an alt-right meme

The movie or the character?

I can kind of imagine alt-righters co-opting it because they have a talent for missing the obvious point of the cultural products they consume.

Both. I've seen alt-right memes about how the riot at the end of the film was a depiction of the "day of the rope" that the alt-right has been prophesizing for years.

[Proctopeo]

The movie or the character?

I can kind of imagine alt-righters co-opting it because they have a talent for missing the obvious point of the cultural products they consume.

Both. I've seen alt-right memes about how the riot at the end of the film was a depiction of the "day of the rope" that the alt-right has been prophesizing for years.

Other days will come before the "day of the rope", such as the Day of the Rake or the Day of the Reuben Sandwich.

[Liriena]

The movie or the character?

I can kind of imagine alt-righters co-opting it because they have a talent for missing the obvious point of the cultural products they consume.

Both. I've seen alt-right memes about how the riot at the end of the film was a depiction of the "day of the rope" that the alt-right has been prophesizing for years.

Ah, yeah, their Turner Diaries fantasy. Very normal brains at work there.

Anyway, add that to the list of reasons why I'm now pro-gun... but specifically for leftists and minorities.

[Liriena]

Both. I've seen alt-right memes about how the riot at the end of the film was a depiction of the "day of the rope" that the alt-right has been prophesizing for years.

Other days will come before the "day of the rope", such as the Day of the Rake or the Day of the Reuben Sandwich.

rake in the lake
rake in the lake
rake in the lake

[Proctopeo]

Both. I've seen alt-right memes about how the riot at the end of the film was a depiction of the "day of the rope" that the alt-right has been prophesizing for years.

Ah, yeah, their Turner Diaries fantasy. Very normal brains at work there.

Anyway, add that to the list of reasons why I'm now pro-gun... but specifically for leftists and minorities.

Only halfway pro-gun? It's a start, I suppose.

Other days will come before the "day of the rope", such as the Day of the Rake or the Day of the Reuben Sandwich.

rake in the lake
rake in the lake
rake in the lake

I haven't actually played UGG but I probably should.

[Cappuccina]

The movie or the character?

I can kind of imagine alt-righters co-opting it because they have a talent for missing the obvious point of the cultural products they consume.

From what I've seen from the alt-right, they did mostly understand the point of Joker (2019); at least, significantly more than, well, the out-of-touch tone deaf late-night talk show types.

I suppose that something about the common man being spat on and reviled by those with power and influence resonated with them on a personal level.

That's a common point for both the alt-right and lefties, to be perfectly honest. Both are populist in nature.

[Kowani]

Yeah. Some folks are shitposting about it and I can't blame them, given how poisonous Peterson and his fandom have been at times for online discourse, but it's hard for me not to empathize with a man who's apparently going through some horrible stuff. Stuff born from mental illness and drug addiction, neither of which are moral failings regardless of who he is and what he's said and done beyond that.

Tbh that's what I don't like about a lot of the online Left is that it views people who have done bad things as almost subhuman and unworthy of empathy in a way that is actually very neo-conservative.

Yeah, that’s partly because the bad things in question tend to lead to people dying.

Like, I’m not gonna dance on Peterson’s hospital bed, but I can see why if he had a GoFundMe, it probably wouldn’t make it’s quota.

[Cappuccina]

Tbh that's what I don't like about a lot of the online Left is that it views people who have done bad things as almost subhuman and unworthy of empathy in a way that is actually very neo-conservative.

Yeah, that’s partly because the bad things in question tend to lead to people dying.

Like, I’m not gonna dance on Peterson’s hospital bed, but I can see why if he had a GoFundMe, it probably wouldn’t make it’s quota.

It'd probably would, he had/has a large following.