TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I guess we wiminz are wipinz or something.

I'm sorry, I don't speak Mexican

Awful of you. Learn.

[Cekoviu]

I'm sorry, I don't speak Mexican

Awful of you. Learn.

¿Yo soy una mañana?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Awful of you. Learn.

¿Yo soy una mañana?

Close. Close.

[Ifreann]

Awful of you. Learn.

¿Yo soy una mañana?

¿Donde esta la biblioteca?

[Cekoviu]

¿Yo soy una mañana?

Close. Close.

Frankly, I'm almost fluent.

¿Yo soy una mañana?

¿Donde esta la biblioteca?

No, you're not.

[Auzkhia]

So, trans twitter is talking about detransitioners because a popular trans youtuber made a twitter thread about it. What say you NSG folk?

My takeaways: it's quite rare, it is a result of transmedicalism (hot take!), and trans people are more often discouraged than encouraged to transition by most people, especially cisgender people in their lives. My parents at first, would have been more accepting of me as a crossdresser or a feminine cis man, albeit queer or gay, than a transgender non-binary femme. My parents thought HRT would be too much and even unhealthy, for ignorant reasons. They've changed since, but I wasn't forced on HRT and almost nobody's telling to get surgeries. Even when detransition happens, it's more like someone going back into the closet because they do not have a support system but they later start again, and even if they were genuinely cis the whole time, that's not a reason to bring more gatekeeping and it does not invalidate me or any trans person.

[Kvatchdom]

My currently sister came out as trans a while ago! Very happy that she can be herself to me at the very least, though Finnish law is pretty fucked when it comes to trans issues.

[Dumb Ideologies]

So, trans twitter is talking about detransitioners because a popular trans youtuber made a twitter thread about it. What say you NSG folk?

My takeaways: it's quite rare, it is a result of transmedicalism (hot take!), and trans people are more often discouraged than encouraged to transition by most people, especially cisgender people in their lives. My parents at first, would have been more accepting of me as a crossdresser or a feminine cis man, albeit queer or gay, than a transgender non-binary femme. My parents thought HRT would be too much and even unhealthy, for ignorant reasons. They've changed since, but I wasn't forced on HRT and almost nobody's telling to get surgeries. Even when detransition happens, it's more like someone going back into the closet because they do not have a support system but they later start again, and even if they were genuinely cis the whole time, that's not a reason to bring more gatekeeping and it does not invalidate me or any trans person.

My take is that it demonstrates why medical gatekeeping is necessary, and also why the system needs to be better funded so that people can have more psychological appointments during the period of "real-life test". That wait in itself gives time for people to change their minds, but filling it with an extensive psychological evaluation is much better than two or three brief appointments in a sea of zero-contact waiting. It might also have the beneficial side-effect of helping to resolve a lot of the common side-issues that contribute towards high suicide rates.

[Vassenor]

So, trans twitter is talking about detransitioners because a popular trans youtuber made a twitter thread about it. What say you NSG folk?

My takeaways: it's quite rare, it is a result of transmedicalism (hot take!), and trans people are more often discouraged than encouraged to transition by most people, especially cisgender people in their lives. My parents at first, would have been more accepting of me as a crossdresser or a feminine cis man, albeit queer or gay, than a transgender non-binary femme. My parents thought HRT would be too much and even unhealthy, for ignorant reasons. They've changed since, but I wasn't forced on HRT and almost nobody's telling to get surgeries. Even when detransition happens, it's more like someone going back into the closet because they do not have a support system but they later start again, and even if they were genuinely cis the whole time, that's not a reason to bring more gatekeeping and it does not invalidate me or any trans person.

Not always transmedicalism. Sometimes it's a personal safety thing.

[Cekoviu]

Trans women should only be allowed to transition if they can get first place in a women's sport at the Olympics. This would solve the issue of medical gatekeeping as well as the complaints about trans women not winning in female sports as frequently as they should be.

[Luminesa]

Technically, flashing nipples when one has a vagina is what we're talking about here. Men do in fact have breasts insofar as they have breast tissue, can even get breast cancer. A fat guy's man boobs are okay though, a flat-chested AFAB person's boobs not. It's weird double standard that should have gone extinct alongside lobotomies and comic book censorship.

In fact, under current laws, if a male donated his nipples and a female glued the male's amputated nipples over her own, she would be in the clear.

Thank you for that mental image

Also, I'll put it on my organ donation list. I am sure one of my female friends finds a use for this

"Sir, you cannot donate nipples."
"But what if she doesn't have nipples?"
"Sir, that's not how this works."
"Then you sir, are a BAAAAAAAAD doctor."
"I'll have the surgeon know I'm not coming in to do your pre-op, then, as I'll be in my office getting wasted to forget this conversation."

[Auzkhia]

My currently sister came out as trans a while ago! Very happy that she can be herself to me at the very least, though Finnish law is pretty fucked when it comes to trans issues.

I'm not super familiar with laws in other countries especially Finland. I've heard what it is like in Canada and the UK because I run into Canadian and British trans people more than any other non-Americans. Is it one of those countries that won't let you change your legal gender markers unless you had SRS? Some european countries still do that, but I'm not quite sure.

Though some states have that if you want to change your birth certificate.

So, trans twitter is talking about detransitioners because a popular trans youtuber made a twitter thread about it. What say you NSG folk?

My takeaways: it's quite rare, it is a result of transmedicalism (hot take!), and trans people are more often discouraged than encouraged to transition by most people, especially cisgender people in their lives. My parents at first, would have been more accepting of me as a crossdresser or a feminine cis man, albeit queer or gay, than a transgender non-binary femme. My parents thought HRT would be too much and even unhealthy, for ignorant reasons. They've changed since, but I wasn't forced on HRT and almost nobody's telling to get surgeries. Even when detransition happens, it's more like someone going back into the closet because they do not have a support system but they later start again, and even if they were genuinely cis the whole time, that's not a reason to bring more gatekeeping and it does not invalidate me or any trans person.

My take is that it demonstrates why medical gatekeeping is necessary, and also why the system needs to be better funded so that people can have more psychological appointments during the period of "real-life test". That wait in itself gives time for people to change their minds, but filling it with an extensive psychological evaluation is much better than two or three brief appointments in a sea of zero-contact waiting. It might also have the beneficial side-effect of helping to resolve a lot of the common side-issues that contribute towards high suicide rates.

We need less gatekeeping. Informed consent now and informed consent forever.

So, trans twitter is talking about detransitioners because a popular trans youtuber made a twitter thread about it. What say you NSG folk?

My takeaways: it's quite rare, it is a result of transmedicalism (hot take!), and trans people are more often discouraged than encouraged to transition by most people, especially cisgender people in their lives. My parents at first, would have been more accepting of me as a crossdresser or a feminine cis man, albeit queer or gay, than a transgender non-binary femme. My parents thought HRT would be too much and even unhealthy, for ignorant reasons. They've changed since, but I wasn't forced on HRT and almost nobody's telling to get surgeries. Even when detransition happens, it's more like someone going back into the closet because they do not have a support system but they later start again, and even if they were genuinely cis the whole time, that's not a reason to bring more gatekeeping and it does not invalidate me or any trans person.

Not always transmedicalism. Sometimes it's a personal safety thing.

It's certainly a contributing factor and I did address the latter point. Like going back to the closet for safety sake.

[Dumb Ideologies]

We need less gatekeeping. Informed consent now and informed consent forever.

I disagree. Properly informed consent requires gatekeeping and long-term psychological evaluation. Another of those cases where the carpet doesn't match the ideological drapes.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

We need less gatekeeping. Informed consent now and informed consent forever.

I disagree. Properly informed consent requires gatekeeping and long-term psychological evaluation. Another of those cases where the carpet doesn't match the ideological drapes.

Honest question: how can gate keeping be used without it resulting in the prevention of those who truly want to and meet the requirements for it, from transitioning?

[Proctopeo]

Why precisely is she facing charges for being topless in her own home? I think there's a little more to this story.

Beyond that, I have no real desire to flash people.

Years ago I read a news story about a man arrested for being naked in his own house. He was standing in a kitchen and a woman and her kid were trespassing on his property by cutting through his yard and he got charged with indecent exposure. There was no evidence he made any sexual gestures or did anything but stand in his kitchen, it happens.

Also, male rape victims are forced to pay child support, teenagers can be charged with child pornography for sexting pics of their own genitals, and there was even a case in Utah in which two 13 year olds were both charged with statutory rape for having sex with each other (though these charges were eventually overturned by the state Supreme court if I remember right).

There are some fucked up laws.

Laws, as well as other legal actions and societal beliefs, pertaining to sexual misconduct are really weird. From pissing in public often being a significant violation, to women getting off more lightly (in most cases), weird shit tends to happen. Like this, where a Sioux City felon, convicted on multiple molestation charges (of victims aging 1-13) is being released, albeit under strict supervision, because of "hormone levels".

[Cekoviu]

I disagree. Properly informed consent requires gatekeeping and long-term psychological evaluation. Another of those cases where the carpet doesn't match the ideological drapes.

Honest question: how can gate keeping be used without it resulting in the prevention of those who truly want to and meet the requirements for it, from transitioning?

It doesn't prevent them so much as making everything much worse for a period of time.

Years ago I read a news story about a man arrested for being naked in his own house. He was standing in a kitchen and a woman and her kid were trespassing on his property by cutting through his yard and he got charged with indecent exposure. There was no evidence he made any sexual gestures or did anything but stand in his kitchen, it happens.

Also, male rape victims are forced to pay child support, teenagers can be charged with child pornography for sexting pics of their own genitals, and there was even a case in Utah in which two 13 year olds were both charged with statutory rape for having sex with each other (though these charges were eventually overturned by the state Supreme court if I remember right).

There are some fucked up laws.

Laws, as well as other legal actions and societal beliefs, pertaining to sexual misconduct are really weird. From pissing in public often being a significant violation, to women getting off more lightly (in most cases), weird shit tends to happen. Like this, where a Sioux City felon, convicted on multiple molestation charges (of victims aging 1-13) is being released, albeit under strict supervision, because of "hormone levels".

Welp, that's utterly horrifying. Simultaneously misandristic and misogynistic.

[Novus America]

I disagree. Properly informed consent requires gatekeeping and long-term psychological evaluation. Another of those cases where the carpet doesn't match the ideological drapes.

Honest question: how can gate keeping be used without it resulting in the prevention of those who truly want to and meet the requirements for it, from transitioning?

It is a balance to be struck. A gate is not a wall. You have to have enough gatekeeping to find out who is really transitioning and who is doing it for other social or mental issues.

The fact that some people who might initially think the are transgender and might not really be means you have to keep an eye out for that.

But at the same time if you are too strict it keeps out people who need it.

Continuing evaluation and follow up care regardless of previous decisions is key. It is not as simple as saying “you get in, no more questions asked and you stay out, and never come back”.

It has to be an ongoing process, not a one time decision.

There are no easy answers here, it is indeed difficult yet still necessary to offer medical care based not only on what the patient requests but also what is best for the patient.

We do this with pretty much all prescription drugs and surgery, at least in theory.

[Ifreann]

So, trans twitter is talking about detransitioners because a popular trans youtuber made a twitter thread about it. What say you NSG folk?

My takeaways: it's quite rare, it is a result of transmedicalism (hot take!), and trans people are more often discouraged than encouraged to transition by most people, especially cisgender people in their lives. My parents at first, would have been more accepting of me as a crossdresser or a feminine cis man, albeit queer or gay, than a transgender non-binary femme. My parents thought HRT would be too much and even unhealthy, for ignorant reasons. They've changed since, but I wasn't forced on HRT and almost nobody's telling to get surgeries. Even when detransition happens, it's more like someone going back into the closet because they do not have a support system but they later start again, and even if they were genuinely cis the whole time, that's not a reason to bring more gatekeeping and it does not invalidate me or any trans person.

It seems pretty shitty to me to support people in transitioning but when it comes to detransitioning to make excuses about it being illegitimate or invalid or whatever.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

So, trans twitter is talking about detransitioners because a popular trans youtuber made a twitter thread about it. What say you NSG folk?

My takeaways: it's quite rare, it is a result of transmedicalism (hot take!), and trans people are more often discouraged than encouraged to transition by most people, especially cisgender people in their lives. My parents at first, would have been more accepting of me as a crossdresser or a feminine cis man, albeit queer or gay, than a transgender non-binary femme. My parents thought HRT would be too much and even unhealthy, for ignorant reasons. They've changed since, but I wasn't forced on HRT and almost nobody's telling to get surgeries. Even when detransition happens, it's more like someone going back into the closet because they do not have a support system but they later start again, and even if they were genuinely cis the whole time, that's not a reason to bring more gatekeeping and it does not invalidate me or any trans person.

I don't really see how detransition is a result of transmedicalism. Sure, some people may detransition as a result of suffering severe transphobia, but that's not transmed's fault. Also, many people detransition because they genuinely feel they were mistaken in transition, and they are in fact cis. It's not always going back into the closet, and to suggest it is, is bigoted.

[Philjia]

Scientifically, the way to determine the best care approach for trans patients is to do a clinical trial where patients are randomly assigned to receive either gatekept or informed consent based care, and compare outcomes. Might be a bit difficult to clear it with the ethics board though.

[Auzkhia]

So, trans twitter is talking about detransitioners because a popular trans youtuber made a twitter thread about it. What say you NSG folk?

My takeaways: it's quite rare, it is a result of transmedicalism (hot take!), and trans people are more often discouraged than encouraged to transition by most people, especially cisgender people in their lives. My parents at first, would have been more accepting of me as a crossdresser or a feminine cis man, albeit queer or gay, than a transgender non-binary femme. My parents thought HRT would be too much and even unhealthy, for ignorant reasons. They've changed since, but I wasn't forced on HRT and almost nobody's telling to get surgeries. Even when detransition happens, it's more like someone going back into the closet because they do not have a support system but they later start again, and even if they were genuinely cis the whole time, that's not a reason to bring more gatekeeping and it does not invalidate me or any trans person.

I don't really see how detransition is a result of transmedicalism. Sure, some people may detransition as a result of suffering severe transphobia, but that's not transmed's fault. Also, many people detransition because they genuinely feel they were mistaken in transition, and they are in fact cis. It's not always going back into the closet, and to suggest it is, is bigoted.

It's telling them that you have to be on HRT or want surgeries to be considered a "Real trans person" so they try to get on those and may regret the changes from medically transitioning, there's less damage if they had not done that so to speak.

[Saciu]

I don't really see how detransition is a result of transmedicalism. Sure, some people may detransition as a result of suffering severe transphobia, but that's not transmed's fault. Also, many people detransition because they genuinely feel they were mistaken in transition, and they are in fact cis. It's not always going back into the closet, and to suggest it is, is bigoted.

It's telling them that you have to be on HRT or want surgeries to be considered a "Real trans person" so they try to get on those and may regret the changes from medically transitioning, there's less damage if they had not done that so to speak.

Your strawmen never end, do they?

[Kowani]

It's telling them that you have to be on HRT or want surgeries to be considered a "Real trans person" so they try to get on those and may regret the changes from medically transitioning, there's less damage if they had not done that so to speak.

Your strawmen never end, do they?

This is NSG. All the forests we’ve cleared to plant straw has raised global temperatures by 2°C

[Fahran]

Scientifically, the way to determine the best care approach for trans patients is to do a clinical trial where patients are randomly assigned to receive either gatekept or informed consent based care, and compare outcomes. Might be a bit difficult to clear it with the ethics board though.

This would be extremely unethical. Plus we have the tools to engage in what I would describe as medically beneficial gatekeeping at the moment. We know that patients who exhibit symptoms of gender dysphoria above a particular threshold have a negligible risk of desistance. With patients who fall short of the threshold, we could try a variety of treatments at the physicians' discretion and with continuing patient consent and reviews. Again, procedures like these are deemed to be medically necessary. We should do the footwork on ensuring that we're not harming any patients or, at the very least, that we're minimizing risk of harm.

[Vassenor]

It's telling them that you have to be on HRT or want surgeries to be considered a "Real trans person" so they try to get on those and may regret the changes from medically transitioning, there's less damage if they had not done that so to speak.

Your strawmen never end, do they?

So what's the strawman here?