LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

[Napkizemlja]

Also how do you account for arbitration of disagreement with moral subjectivity, especially between two fundamentally different value systems, within a group, peacefully? You can't use the legal system since all legal systems are reflections of morals and norms within a society.

The short end of it is you can't. Arbitration means giving up moral subjectivity and keeping it will, in the long run, end in communal violence since a lot of people do hold the belief that if the other person is dead their morality is true.

There needs to be some level of shared morality for any group of people.

[United Muscovite Nations]

No it isn't. Thinking that only leftists and modernists wish to transform societies is a very bad way of both viewing right philosophical though and history in general. Early Christians were not leftists and sought to radically transform society into something that resembled the earlier, truer relationship between humanity and God. Conservative Revolutionaries I would definitely not consider leftists either.

I would agree with you if that were the case in this scenario, but this is not the case.

You say that as if I look forward to the recreation of a past society, and not the creation of a new society.

Also, the fact that Musocvite was bemoaning the lack of acceptance to society provides for those that “don’t fit the mold” is not a reactionary position. The reactionary position would bemoaning how accepting this society is of degeneracy and wishing to return to a society that isn’t accepting of those that don’t fall into the rest of normal society and tradition.

You don't quite realize what I mean by that, which is understandable, but I mean that our society has created a new normalcy, such that deviancy is now found in not fitting this hedonistic mode.

[Napkizemlja]

No it isn't. Thinking that only leftists and modernists wish to transform societies is a very bad way of both viewing right philosophical though and history in general. Early Christians were not leftists and sought to radically transform society into something that resembled the earlier, truer relationship between humanity and God. Conservative Revolutionaries I would definitely not consider leftists either.

I would agree with you if that were the case in this scenario, but this is not the case.

You say that as if I look forward to the recreation of a past society, and not the creation of a new society.

Also, the fact that Musocvite was bemoaning the lack of acceptance to society provides for those that “don’t fit the mold” is not a reactionary position. The reactionary position would bemoaning how accepting this society is of degeneracy and wishing to return to a society that isn’t accepting of those that don’t fall into the rest of normal society and tradition.

Reactionaries do complain about how they do not fit in the modern world and how they cannot express a lot of their views freely. Bemoaning the lack of acceptance isn't necessarily a solely left-wing trait.

UMN isn't left wing or right wing, he broke free of the political spectrum and ascended into the Based Dimension.

[Nuroblav]

All morality is. What is religion to one is blasphemy to another. Let me show you: What is your favourite colour?

So, tell me, do you think a person's opinion on being enslaved is no important than their opinion on colors?

Sorry, I was trying to prove a point about subjective morality but that probably wasn't clear enough :-(

Luminesa put it better:

That’s not a moral question, though. A moral question is, “If I punch you and take your money, do you go to the police, or do you accept that my morality is different from yours?”

[New Paine]

I would agree with you if that were the case in this scenario, but this is not the case.



Also, the fact that Musocvite was bemoaning the lack of acceptance to society provides for those that “don’t fit the mold” is not a reactionary position. The reactionary position would bemoaning how accepting this society is of degeneracy and wishing to return to a society that isn’t accepting of those that don’t fall into the rest of normal society and tradition.

Reactionaries do complain about how they do not fit in the modern world and how they cannot express a lot of their views freely. Bemoaning the lack of acceptance isn't necessarily a solely left-wing trait.

UMN isn't left wing or right wing, he broke free of the political spectrum and ascended into the Based Dimension.

UMN and a hell lot of reactionaries are doing a damn fine job at expressing their views here and elsewhere. Perhaps it’s not their philosophical views that keep them from “fitting in” in the rest of society but (I know this sound absolutely dick-ish) has to do more with issuing relating to being on the spectrum, and I’m not referring to the political spectrum.

[Nuroblav]

So much for nihilism. If you were truly a nihilist, you would probably say that it doesn’t matter if the separation of church and state exists, because you would believe nothing matters. You’re just anti-religious. And responding to someone who is saying that slavery and genocide should be destroyed with, “This is why religious officials shouldn’t be in office,” really gives you no high ground to talk about him somehow being hypocritical.

This thread is full of people who only use the label “nihilist” because it makes them seem edgy and intellectual. When held to a microscope, ya’ll get just as upset about your beliefs being targeted as anyone else does.

True nihilists are too nihilistic to be nihilist.

[New Paine]

I would agree with you if that were the case in this scenario, but this is not the case.



Also, the fact that Musocvite was bemoaning the lack of acceptance to society provides for those that “don’t fit the mold” is not a reactionary position. The reactionary position would bemoaning how accepting this society is of degeneracy and wishing to return to a society that isn’t accepting of those that don’t fall into the rest of normal society and tradition.

You don't quite realize what I mean by that, which is understandable, but I mean that our society has created a new normalcy, such that deviancy is now found in not fitting this hedonistic mode.

I can guarantee you that the great majority of society doesn’t care if you or anyone else finds sex repulsive. The fact is the great majority of society likes sex and should not change for the absolutely minuscule minority that finds all forms of sex repulsive.

[Luminesa]

Empathy has already ceased to be a thing.

Well, this is abjectly false.

Look at how many people celebrate the deaths of enemies

…Yes, people did this in literally every era in human history. Heck, look at the genocide of the Moritori by the Maori. The Maori were not a bunch of moral nihilists-they were, by their moral code, acting quite fine-and they were celebrating their enemies’ deaths. Why? Because they were enemies. The widespread acceptance of the idea of feeling sympathy for the civilians on the other side is a relatively modern phenomenon-compare the popular reaction to the Vietnam War to the Roman conquest of Gaul.

or how even you callously say that the feelings of rape victims don't matter.

In case you did not notice, most people do not think like me.

Because most people who have lived in the timespan that humans have existed, and even those who are staunchly atheists with any number of obscure beliefs, know that rape is a horrible, dehumanizing experience. You speak the words of someone who has never actually witnessed someone suffering, and who uses sophistry to cover the fact that they effectively hate the world and hate women. Your words make Ayn Rand herself shrivel and cry in her grave. pe victims don’t matter, you will never, ever have the high ground on this website ever again. You can never, ever claim to be an intellectual, unless you somehow ascribe to the philosophies of Kinsey or de Sade.

[Napkizemlja]

Reactionaries do complain about how they do not fit in the modern world and how they cannot express a lot of their views freely. Bemoaning the lack of acceptance isn't necessarily a solely left-wing trait.

UMN isn't left wing or right wing, he broke free of the political spectrum and ascended into the Based Dimension.

UMN and a hell lot of reactionaries are doing a damn fine job at expressing their views here and elsewhere. Perhaps it’s not their philosophical views that keep them from “fitting in” in the rest of society but (I know this sound absolutely dick-ish) has to do more with issuing relating to being on the spectrum, and I’m not referring to the political spectrum.

"All reactionaries are autistic" is a helluva hot take.

[Nolo gap]

-Snip-

Could you make sense, please?

and precisely what "sense" do i appear to be not making?

little green pieces of paper did not exist in nature on earth until humans invented them.

there is no ideology that is not an excuse for preventing any government, regardless of its form,
or whatever form of social organization serves the functions of one, for preventing that government from earning its keep,
by protecting people from starving, freezing or beating each other over the head,
and its environment protected from its infrastructure,
while requiring it to be of use and service to everyone regardless of social or economic status.

little green pieces of paper are no better nor worse then the petard of procustus,
though the bent propeller is the mark of harm itself.

there is no evil ONE, but there is an evil form of behavior.
belligerance and its only slightly more nuanced cousins,
forms of aggressiveness such as biggotry and greed,
ARE THAT FORM OF BEHAVIOR.

the unknown being unknown in no way prevents the existence of self aware beings,
who are neither physical nor imaginary, but neither do they owe anything,
to what people tell each other, nor would any GOOD thing, have the slightest wish to be feared.

[New Paine]

UMN and a hell lot of reactionaries are doing a damn fine job at expressing their views here and elsewhere. Perhaps it’s not their philosophical views that keep them from “fitting in” in the rest of society but (I know this sound absolutely dick-ish) has to do more with issuing relating to being on the spectrum, and I’m not referring to the political spectrum.

"All reactionaries are autistic" is a helluva hot take.

Speaking as a person that is on the spectrum and has GREAT experience in not fitting the mold in society, I can see that millennials and zoomers on the spectrum finding solace in reactionary opinions. Also, I have to add again that UMN what are expressing a reactionary opinion at all. They expressly said that they don’t wish to destroy this society and return into a former society. You either want more conformity and more exclusion of those that don’t fit the mold or you want less of that. If you are of the opinion that there should be less than that, that is not reactionary!

[Nakena]

Reactionaries do complain about how they do not fit in the modern world and how they cannot express a lot of their views freely. Bemoaning the lack of acceptance isn't necessarily a solely left-wing trait.

UMN isn't left wing or right wing, he broke free of the political spectrum and ascended into the Based Dimension.

UMN and a hell lot of reactionaries are doing a damn fine job at expressing their views here and elsewhere. Perhaps it’s not their philosophical views that keep them from “fitting in” in the rest of society but (I know this sound absolutely dick-ish) has to do more with issuing relating to being on the spectrum, and I’m not referring to the political spectrum.

Be gentle. If anything UMN is more a romantic than a reactionary.

[New Paine]

UMN and a hell lot of reactionaries are doing a damn fine job at expressing their views here and elsewhere. Perhaps it’s not their philosophical views that keep them from “fitting in” in the rest of society but (I know this sound absolutely dick-ish) has to do more with issuing relating to being on the spectrum, and I’m not referring to the political spectrum.

Be gentle. If anything UMN is more a romantic than a reactionary.

Oh boy, more NSG pipe dreams.

[Napkizemlja]

Speaking as a person that is on the spectrum and has GREAT experience in not fitting the mold in society,

That doesn't excuse making a very, very dumb statement.

I can see that millennials and zoomers on the spectrum finding solace in reactionary opinions.

A lot of reactionaries are not Millenials or Zoomers and even those that are, say, Millennial they tend to be on the older side of it. A lot of them are Gen X or older. A lot of them have very clear and precise reasons for being reactionaries - it is foolish to think of them as all stupid. I think 2016 should have shown your sort to not just wave them away.

Also, I have to add again that UMN what are expressing a reactionary opinion at all. They expressly said that they don’t wish to destroy this society and return into a former society.

Most reactionaries don't want carbon copies either, just one heavily based upon former systems. Some of them don't even really want old systems, it's just more the anti-democratic and anti-egalitarian principles that get them labelled NRx. People like Thiel, Moldbug, and Land do not wish to return to agrarian feudalism or even the political structure of the 19th century.

[Totenborg]

That's why separation of church and state should be defended with force if need be.

So much for nihilism. If you were truly a nihilist, you would probably say that it doesn’t matter if the separation of church and state exists, because you would believe nothing matters. You’re just anti-religious. And responding to someone who is saying that slavery and genocide should be destroyed with, “This is why religious officials shouldn’t be in office,” really gives you no high ground to talk about him somehow being hypocritical.

This thread is full of people who only use the label “nihilist” because it makes them seem edgy and intellectual. When held to a microscope, ya’ll get just as upset about your beliefs being targeted as anyone else does.

Horseshit. You don't get to decide what my thoughts are. My perspective that life has no intrinsic value or meaning does not affect my belief in ethics. Nobody's nihilistic across the board. Aim your gotcha moment at someone else.

[Napkizemlja]

So much for nihilism. If you were truly a nihilist, you would probably say that it doesn’t matter if the separation of church and state exists, because you would believe nothing matters. You’re just anti-religious. And responding to someone who is saying that slavery and genocide should be destroyed with, “This is why religious officials shouldn’t be in office,” really gives you no high ground to talk about him somehow being hypocritical.

This thread is full of people who only use the label “nihilist” because it makes them seem edgy and intellectual. When held to a microscope, ya’ll get just as upset about your beliefs being targeted as anyone else does.

Horseshit. You get to decide what my thoughts are. My perspective that life has no intrinsic value or meaning does not affect my belief in ethics. Nobody's nihilistic across the board. Aim your gotcha moment at someone else.

If it wasn't a genuine gotcha moment, it wouldn't have hit a nerve. :^)

[New Paine]

Speaking as a person that is on the spectrum and has GREAT experience in not fitting the mold in society,

That doesn't excuse making a very, very dumb statement.

I can see that millennials and zoomers on the spectrum finding solace in reactionary opinions.

A lot of reactionaries are not Millenials or Zoomers and even those that are, say, Millennial they tend to be on the older side of it. A lot of them are Gen X or older. A lot of them have very clear and precise reasons for being reactionaries - it is foolish to think of them as all stupid. I think 2016 should have shown your sort to not just wave them away.

Also, I have to add again that UMN what are expressing a reactionary opinion at all. They expressly said that they don’t wish to destroy this society and return into a former society.

Most reactionaries don't want carbon copies either, just one heavily based upon former systems. People like Thiel, Moldbug, and Land do not wish to return to agrarian feudalism.

However, it is NOT the reactionary position that calls for a more accepting society for those that fit the mold. I understand you have to defend your fellow orthodox brother, but this is getting rather silly at this point.

[Totenborg]

Horseshit. You get to decide what my thoughts are. My perspective that life has no intrinsic value or meaning does not affect my belief in ethics. Nobody's nihilistic across the board. Aim your gotcha moment at someone else.

If it wasn't a genuine gotcha moment, it wouldn't have hit a nerve. :^)

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[Cisairse]

You say that as if I look forward to the recreation of a past society, and not the creation of a new society.

Wishing to create destroy the current society in order to create a new one is modernist as all hell.

I feel like it's postmodernist almost by definition.

[Napkizemlja]

That doesn't excuse making a very, very dumb statement. A lot of reactionaries are not Millenials or Zoomers and even those that are, say, Millennial they tend to be on the older side of it. A lot of them are Gen X or older. A lot of them have very clear and precise reasons for being reactionaries - it is foolish to think of them as all stupid. I think 2016 should have shown your sort to not just wave them away. Most reactionaries don't want carbon copies either, just one heavily based upon former systems. People like Thiel, Moldbug, and Land do not wish to return to agrarian feudalism.

However, it is NOT the reactionary position that calls for a more accepting society for those that fit the mold. I understand you have to defend your fellow orthodox brother, but this is getting rather silly at this point.

Depends on the form of reactionary. Nor does my defense have anything to do with UMN being Orthodox, I don't even agree with UMN on most things.

[New Paine]

However, it is NOT the reactionary position that calls for a more accepting society for those that fit the mold. I understand you have to defend your fellow orthodox brother, but this is getting rather silly at this point.

Depends on the form of reactionary. Nor does my defense have anything to do with UMN being Orthodox, I don't even agree with UMN on most things.

Interesting, what form of reactionary calls for a more accepting society of those that “don’t fit the mold”? That sounds to me like a Marxist calling for more privatization and less regulation of private industry.

[New Paine]

Wishing to create destroy the current society in order to create a new one is modernist as all hell.

I feel like it's postmodernist almost by definition.

It is especially postmodernist when one is calling for a more excepting society. Modern society has never been more accepting of people that don’t fit the mold.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Be gentle. If anything UMN is more a romantic than a reactionary.

Oh boy, more NSG pipe dreams.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism

Romanticism (also known as the Romantic era) was an artistic, literary, musical and intellectual movement that originated in Europe toward the end of the 18th century, and in most areas was at its peak in the approximate period from 1800 to 1850. Romanticism was characterized by its emphasis on emotion and individualism as well as glorification of all the past and nature, preferring the medieval rather than the classical. It was partly a reaction to the Industrial Revolution,[1] the aristocratic social and political norms of the Age of Enlightenment, and the scientific rationalization of nature—all components of modernity.[2] It was embodied most strongly in the visual arts, music, and literature, but had a major impact on historiography,[3] education,[4] the social sciences, and the natural sciences.[5][failed verification] It had a significant and complex effect on politics, with romantic thinkers influencing liberalism, radicalism, conservatism and nationalism.[6]

The movement emphasized intense emotion as an authentic source of aesthetic experience, placing new emphasis on such emotions as apprehension, horror and terror, and awe—especially that experienced in confronting the new aesthetic categories of the sublimity and beauty of nature. It elevated folk art and ancient custom to something noble, but also spontaneity as a desirable characteristic (as in the musical impromptu). In contrast to the Rationalism and Classicism of the Enlightenment, Romanticism revived medievalism[7] and elements of art and narrative perceived as authentically medieval in an attempt to escape population growth, early urban sprawl, and industrialism.

I think they meant this.

[United Muscovite Nations]

You don't quite realize what I mean by that, which is understandable, but I mean that our society has created a new normalcy, such that deviancy is now found in not fitting this hedonistic mode.

I can guarantee you that the great majority of society doesn’t care if you or anyone else finds sex repulsive. The fact is the great majority of society likes sex and should not change for the absolutely minuscule minority that finds all forms of sex repulsive.

That's where you're wrong, bucko.

[Cekoviu]

I can guarantee you that the great majority of society doesn’t care if you or anyone else finds sex repulsive. The fact is the great majority of society likes sex and should not change for the absolutely minuscule minority that finds all forms of sex repulsive.

That's where you're wrong, bucko.

It is generally appropriate to maintain the status quo if it is not harmful. Unless there's something better, but changing the way we think about sex in the way you want to would not be a net improvement.