Does feminism work for men? (Agustin Munoz, one year on)

[Costa Fierro]

Feminism as an ideology does not do anything. Modern feminist movements may be focusing on women or women's issues primarily, but there are plenty of men-focused feminist movements, and some are pretty big--check out r/MensLib.

Men's Lib is trash. It's a place for men to apologise for being men and feel self-satisfied about it.

See, the great thing about the world is that you can also start your own feminist movement in support of men's issues.

Men do not need feminism. Men's issues do not need feminists or a feminist movement. It has its own movement, which has been routinely slandered, derided, and villainised by feminists for merely advocating for legal and social equality.

If you ever take a Gender Studies class in college, you'll be surprised to find that there are quite a few male feminist authors in the course material list.

Why the hell would anyone who wants to actually do good in the world take a course on Gender Studies? Male feminists do not give a single fuck about men.

Feminism as an ideology recognizes that cultural and social structures have historically been oppressive and limiting for both men and women, albeit primarily affecting women. There are plenty of issues facing men that can be approached from a feminist perspective. Men are less likely to ask for mental health help or healthcare when faced with an issue. Men have higher rates of suicide. These sorts of things can be traced back to a socialization that men go through that is limiting for them. That's something discussed by feminism.

Has anything been done about them? Nope. Feminists have actively tried to avoid addressing men's issues and discussions (if you can even call them that) are only lip service acknowledging not all men when yet another feminist rants on about how we're all dangerous rapists, abusers, and paedophiles.

Signed, a man.

Congrats, you made me throw up slightly.

[Lamoni]

Neither the MRM nor MGTOW have any connection to incels (strong or weak); claims otherwise are patent nonsense and rooted largely in sexism.

Oh, please. Southern Poverty Law Center identifies MGTOW as a "borderline incel group" and part of the "male supremacy"/"red pill" movement. The chief MRM film is literally called "The Red Pill". I do suggest watching Big Joel's videos that I linked, if only to develop your arguments against me.

And those won't get touched by feminism.

I've already covered the difference between feminism as an ideology and the modern feminist movement and how feminism can support men's issues.

Obviously they'd be anti-feminist, given feminism's incredibly fierce opposition to the movement. But, there's very very little anti-woman rhetoric in the MRM, or at least what a rational actor would consider "anti-woman".

Mod Edit - banned link

But it's satire so it's okay!!!11!!1! Quit being triggered!!!1!

Warren Farrell:

We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting.

The leaders of your "men's rights" movement look like they're saying some pretty sexist shit. I'm sure there's more quotes I could pull up, but you aren't gonna change your mind regardless. And no, it was the men's rights activists who proclaimed themselves anti-feminist first. They stemmed off the men's liberation movement, which was pro-feminist and largely accepted.

How about no? It's shit.

Ah yes, I'm sure you'd know what it's like to be shit. Thanks for pointing it out.

Ah yes, the Southern Poverty Law Center, well known for it’s reasonableness and objectivity. Where would we be without them calling out the OK gesture and Pepe as hate symbols?

In truth, MTGOW is very distinct from inceldom. I don’t coubt myself as MTGOW and some of their more radical adherents can blur the line into being an incel but there are ideological differences. As for MRAs, bud, we fucking hate incels. Basically every group in the manosphere either hates them or pities them. Incels want to reinforce and internalize the toxic expectations society places upon men, particularly as they relate to sex.

[Ors Might]

Nah, I'll leave it to you to actually formulate a coherent answer. I already read your post before. Why would I again wanna subject myself to reading such flimsy bullshit again?

Because you're doing a pretty fucking shit job of convincing me you're right. If you can't actually argue with my points, then maybe you should stop flapping your mouth about a subject you don't know about.

Then again I kind of pity you. It's up to you to explain why feminism is still useful in a society where women are increasingly more privileged than men. Oof.

Yeah, yeah, because Congress is disproportionately full of these privileged women. Of course. How pathetic it must be to blame the problems in your life on some women's movement.

Does Congress being filled with men prevent those men from passing laws that benefit women?

[Sylvai]

Ah yes, the Southern Poverty Law Center, well known for it’s reasonableness and objectivity. Where would we be without them calling out the OK gesture and Pepe as hate symbols?

How enjoyable it must be to ignore the evidence behind an organization's claims and express shock at memes being designated as hate symbols despite the fact that white supremacists actually subvert these memes for their movement. Who could forget the Christchurch shooters' use of the OK hand when in court? Apparently you did. I wish I had the privilege of this ignorance.

[New haven america]

Ah yes, the Southern Poverty Law Center, well known for it’s reasonableness and objectivity. Where would we be without them calling out the OK gesture and Pepe as hate symbols?

How enjoyable it must be to ignore the evidence behind an organization's claims and express shock at memes being designated as hate symbols despite the fact that white supremacists actually subvert these memes for their movement. Who could forget the Christchurch shooters' use of the OK hand when in court? Apparently you did. I wish I had the privilege of this ignorance.

Actually, the creator of Pepe went through a copyright law suit to tighten the use of Pepe so he couldn't be used as a hate symbol.

[Ors Might]

Ah yes, the Southern Poverty Law Center, well known for it’s reasonableness and objectivity. Where would we be without them calling out the OK gesture and Pepe as hate symbols?

How enjoyable it must be to ignore the evidence behind an organization's claims and express shock at memes being designated as hate symbols despite the fact that white supremacists actually subvert these memes for their movement. Who could forget the Christchurch shooters' use of the OK hand when in court? Apparently you did. I wish I had the privilege of this ignorance.

What makes the OK hand gesture a symbol of white supremacy besides some degenerates using it? Are the majority that use the gesture white supremacists? Did it begin with racist intents?

[Tundra Terra]

I don’t want equality. On one hand it’s insane to strive for on a societal level and on the other hand it is difficult for me to believe a person is unique while at the same time being told they are the same as any other. Just no.

[Sylvai]

Actually, the creator of Pepe when through a copyright law suit to tighten the use of Pepe so he couldn't be used as a hate symbol.

That kinda proves my point lmao. He had to sue because people were using his meme as a hate symbol. The SPLC doesn't claim that everyone using a Pepe meme or the OK hand is a white nationalist.

What makes the OK hand gesture a symbol of white supremacy besides some degenerates using it? Are the majority that use the gesture white supremacists? Did it begin with racist intents?

It's not only a symbol for white supremacy and SPLC doesn't claim that. The point is that white supremacists are using it to dogwhistle to each other. It is classified as a hate symbol because they use it as one. That doesn't mean that the majority using it are white supremacists, and it doesn't mean that it's in itself a racist symbol. I make OK hand jokes with my girlfriend all the time and I don't think the SPLC is gonna come after my ass and ruin my life because of that.

[Lamoni]

Neither the MRM nor MGTOW have any connection to incels (strong or weak); claims otherwise are patent nonsense and rooted largely in sexism.

Oh, please. Southern Poverty Law Center identifies MGTOW as a "borderline incel group" and part of the "male supremacy"/"red pill" movement.

The SPLC also revealed a man's medical history because he blogged about men's rights. They're utter garbage, just in general, but especially when it comes to """""the manosphere"""".

The chief MRM film is literally called "The Red Pill".

That doesn't really mean anything.

And those won't get touched by feminism.

I've already covered the difference between feminism as an ideology and the modern feminist movement and how feminism can support men's issues.

Reality does not conform to your fantasies.

Obviously they'd be anti-feminist, given feminism's incredibly fierce opposition to the movement. But, there's very very little anti-woman rhetoric in the MRM, or at least what a rational actor would consider "anti-woman".

Mod Edit - banned link
Uh-huh, you very blatantly excised the part where it's a satirical response to a Jezebel article in which the author praises their community for having a very large amount of proud domestic abusers. That's key to the whole thing.

But it's satire so it's okay!!!11!!1! Quit being triggered!!!1!

This, but unironically. It's specifically Juvenalian Satire, as mentioned in the body of the article itself, is an abrasive form of satire, addressing perceived societal evil, like the glorification of domestic abuse, through scorn, outrage, and savage ridicule.

Warren Farrell:

We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting.

Had to do some digging for this one, as unlike the previous, it's not a failure of reading on your part.
With context it becomes... complicated, essentially playing into a discussion of verbal vs nonverbal cues in courtship, and that the two can contradict. Though, of course, this excerpt is from a particularly old book - earlier than 2008 - and likely not reflective of modern beliefs he holds.

The leaders of your "men's rights" movement look like they're saying some pretty sexist shit.

"Look" being the operating word here.
Meanwhile sexism is super pervasive and even praised within feminism; your arguments are themselves evidence of this sexism. I could, like, survey a bunch of articles from Jezebel or WHTM or a feminist subreddit and come up positive for lots and lots of anti-male sentiment. I won't, though.

I'm sure there's more quotes I could pull up, but you aren't gonna change your mind regardless.

If you have anything that doesn't require ignoring vital parts of an article or taking a line from a decade-old book out of context, I'd like to see it, though I doubt you have anything of that sort.

And no, it was the men's rights activists who proclaimed themselves anti-feminist first. They stemmed off the men's liberation movement, which was pro-feminist and largely accepted.

Source?

How about no? It's shit.

Ah yes, I'm sure you'd know what it's like to be shit. Thanks for pointing it out.

Nah, I wouldn't know. I'm not a feminist.

[Ors Might]

That kinda proves my point lmao. He had to sue because people were using his meme as a hate symbol. The SPLC doesn't claim that everyone using a Pepe meme or the OK hand is a white nationalist.

It's not only a symbol for white supremacy and SPLC doesn't claim that. The point is that white nationalists are using it to dogwhistle to each other. It is classified as a hate symbol because they use it as one. That doesn't mean that the majority using it are white supremacists, and it doesn't mean that it's in itself a racist symbol. I make OK hand jokes with my girlfriend all the time and I don't think the SPLC is gonna come after my ass and ruin my life because of that.

So what’s the point of classifying it as a hate symbol when it’s basically just white supremacists joining in on a fucking meme?

[Des-Bal]

Yeah, again, you're just completely off base here. You don't need to scoop up anything from the modern feminist movement. But if you're going to ignore feminist literature that has discussed gender equality at length only because of the "feminist" label, then you're starting off from a really shitty point with no actual worldview that addresses what the cause of your chief issues are. I think you'll find that it would be a lot easier to change the connotation around feminism for those who think they oppose it, because there are already a lot of people supporting the current feminist movement and they will be inherently suspicious of a different movement purporting to do the same thing that disregards major feminist concepts without sufficient political theory to back it up.

But feel free to do whatever you wanna do. I'm just saying it's completely possible to start a pro-men feminist movement and it has been done before.


You could not be more wrong. Anti-war feminists during the Vietnam War literally gave young men classes on how to dodge the draft and were primarily rallying against the draft. They said "fuck war" because they recognized the harmfulness of romanticizing violence. This romanticization of violence was harmful to men, because it was making them believe it was noble to go fight a war which would likely ruin their lives, and it was also harmful to women, because when these men came back unable to care for themselves due to PTSD, women would have to care for them and run the risk of being physically harmed by a PTSD flashback.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

EDIT: also it's pretty revealing that you compare feminism to nazism lmao
like you think men are being gassed at the hands of a feminist with dyed-hair and a nose ring

Feminist literature, as a whole, fucking sucks. You are inviting me to scoop shit out of it or take the shit wholesale. Further still, there are MANY people supporting the current feminist theory and they are a problem, because say it with me: Feminism as a whole sucks. The connotation around feminism comes from feminists, from their actions and from their choices. It's current feminists shutting down discussions about male suicide and and male victims or female perpetrators of rape. Altering their beliefs is not an unfortunate burden I've taken on by my chosen course of action it's the reason for the season. Burn the whole damn rats nest and start fresh.

You disagreed with me and then essentially delivered a detailed description of why I'm right. "Help men" was not the goal, the help was incidental. You had to reach 45 years back for an example of feminists helping men with transparently obvious unrelated motives.

At no point by word or deed did I suggest feminists behaved in a fashion similar to nazis.

[Lamoni]

Neither the MRM nor MGTOW have any connection to incels (strong or weak); claims otherwise are patent nonsense and rooted largely in sexism.

Oh, please. Southern Poverty Law Center identifies MGTOW as a "borderline incel group" and part of the "male supremacy"/"red pill" movement. The chief MRM film is literally called "The Red Pill". I do suggest watching Big Joel's videos that I linked, if only to develop your arguments against me.

And those won't get touched by feminism.

I've already covered the difference between feminism as an ideology and the modern feminist movement and how feminism can support men's issues.

Obviously they'd be anti-feminist, given feminism's incredibly fierce opposition to the movement. But, there's very very little anti-woman rhetoric in the MRM, or at least what a rational actor would consider "anti-woman".

Mod Edit - banned link

But it's satire so it's okay!!!11!!1! Quit being triggered!!!1!

Warren Farrell:

We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting.

The leaders of your "men's rights" movement look like they're saying some pretty sexist shit. I'm sure there's more quotes I could pull up, but you aren't gonna change your mind regardless. And no, it was the men's rights activists who proclaimed themselves anti-feminist first. They stemmed off the men's liberation movement, which was pro-feminist and largely accepted.

How about no? It's shit.

Ah yes, I'm sure you'd know what it's like to be shit. Thanks for pointing it out.

Yeah they all suck. I'm just not clear on how you can reach that conclusion and not come to the same one about feminism.

[New haven america]

It's not only a symbol for white supremacy and SPLC doesn't claim that. The point is that white nationalists are using it to dogwhistle to each other. It is classified as a hate symbol because they use it as one. That doesn't mean that the majority using it are white supremacists, and it doesn't mean that it's in itself a racist symbol. I make OK hand jokes with my girlfriend all the time and I don't think the SPLC is gonna come after my ass and ruin my life because of that.

So what’s the point of classifying it as a hate symbol when it’s basically just white supremacists joining in on a fucking meme?

Because that's how extremists tend to operate. They start low and slow by making edgy jokes and pranks, and when those jokes and pranks gets accepted as normal or tame by society they then ramp it up little by little until their extremist ideas are seen as normal.

Europe during the 1900's and during the Rise of Fascism is the perfect example. Fascism was not seen as a viable political idea for the first decade of its existence, but by slowly spoon feeding the public fascist ideas and taking advantage of economic woes, it was able to rise in prominence pretty damn quickly.

[Ors Might]

So what’s the point of classifying it as a hate symbol when it’s basically just white supremacists joining in on a fucking meme?

Because that's how extremists tend to operate. They start low and slow by making edgy jokes and pranks, and when those jokes and pranks gets accepted as normal or tame by society they then ramp it up little by little until their extremist ideas are seen as normal.

Europe during the 1900's and during the Rise of Fascism is the perfect example. Fascism was not seen as a viable political idea for the first decade of its existence, but by slowly spoon feeding the public fascist ideas and taking advantage of economic woes, it was able to rise in prominence pretty damn quickly.

Okay but the difference here is that the OK hand gesture was never edgy or obscene. I associate it more with that fucking Italian meme than I do white nationalism.

[Sylvai]

So what’s the point of classifying it as a hate symbol when it’s basically just white supremacists joining in on a fucking meme?

It's not only a symbol for white supremacy and SPLC doesn't claim that. The point is that white nationalists are using it to dogwhistle to each other. It is classified as a hate symbol because they use it as one. That doesn't mean that the majority using it are white supremacists, and it doesn't mean that it's in itself a racist symbol. I make OK hand jokes with my girlfriend all the time and I don't think the SPLC is gonna come after my ass and ruin my life because of that.

---

How can I convince someone who doesn't wanna be convinced?

Maybe by actually fairly refuting their points instead of creating strawmen and talking past them. It's funny, because to me, you're the one who won't be convinced in the face of comprehensive arguments.

Oh, right. How dare I complain that the vast majority of the homeless population is men, most drug overdoses are men, most suicides are men, women get treated better in divorce court, they receive lighter sentences than men for the same crimes, breast cancer receives more attention than prostate cancer even though roughly the same number of men die from prostate cancer, etc.

Clearly nothing wrong with any of that.

I have no problem with you pointing out any of that. I have a problem with you blaming it on feminism and saying these things prove that men are less privileged than women because it doesn't actually create progress on those issues. You're only pointing them out for the sake of owning le stupid feminist.

I think this is a case of female fragility.

I'm a man, dipshit, and I've been one since birth.

---

Reality does not conform to your fantasies.

spoken like a true man who's never read feminist literature lmao

Uh-huh, you very blatantly excised the part where it's a satirical response to a Jezebel article in which the author praises their community for having a very large amount of proud domestic abusers. That's key to the whole thing.

I can't have excised it because I directly linked to the article and included his stupid little "Satire!!" warning, but sure.

"Look" being the operating word here.
Meanwhile sexism is super pervasive and even praised within feminism; your arguments are themselves evidence of this sexism. I could, like, survey a bunch of articles from Jezebel or WHTM or a feminist subreddit and come up positive for lots and lots of anti-male sentiment. I won't, though.

Please point out how any of my arguments are evidence of sexism. I'd love to hear it.

If you have anything that doesn't require ignoring vital parts of an article or taking a line from a decade-old book out of context, I'd like to see it, though I doubt you have anything of that sort.

Sure, I'll give it a shot. Give me some time.

Source?

sigh I already closed the tab. I know this is bad debate practice, but look it up yourself.

[New haven america]

Because that's how extremists tend to operate. They start low and slow by making edgy jokes and pranks, and when those jokes and pranks gets accepted as normal or tame by society they then ramp it up little by little until their extremist ideas are seen as normal.

Europe during the 1900's and during the Rise of Fascism is the perfect example. Fascism was not seen as a viable political idea for the first decade of its existence, but by slowly spoon feeding the public fascist ideas and taking advantage of economic woes, it was able to rise in prominence pretty damn quickly.

Okay but the difference here is that the OK hand gesture was never edgy or obscene. I associate it more with that fucking Italian meme than I do white nationalism.

No yet, but if they keep it up and are consistent with it, it can be.

[Ors Might]

So what’s the point of classifying it as a hate symbol when it’s basically just white supremacists joining in on a fucking meme?

It's not only a symbol for white supremacy and SPLC doesn't claim that. The point is that white nationalists are using it to dogwhistle to each other. It is classified as a hate symbol because they use it as one. That doesn't mean that the majority using it are white supremacists, and it doesn't mean that it's in itself a racist symbol. I make OK hand jokes with my girlfriend all the time and I don't think the SPLC is gonna come after my ass and ruin my life because of that.

---

How can I convince someone who doesn't wanna be convinced?

Maybe by actually fairly refuting their points instead of creating strawmen and talking past them. It's funny, because to me, you're the one who won't be convinced in the face of comprehensive arguments.

Oh, right. How dare I complain that the vast majority of the homeless population is men, most drug overdoses are men, most suicides are men, women get treated better in divorce court, they receive lighter sentences than men for the same crimes, breast cancer receives more attention than prostate cancer even though roughly the same number of men die from prostate cancer, etc.

Clearly nothing wrong with any of that.

I have no problem with you pointing out any of that. I have a problem with you blaming it on feminism and saying these things prove that men are less privileged than women because it doesn't actually create progress on those issues. You're only pointing them out for the sake of owning le stupid feminist.

I think this is a case of female fragility.

I'm a man, dipshit, and I've been one since birth.

---

Reality does not conform to your fantasies.

spoken like a true man who's never read feminist literature lmao

Uh-huh, you very blatantly excised the part where it's a satirical response to a Jezebel article in which the author praises their community for having a very large amount of proud domestic abusers. That's key to the whole thing.

I can't have excised it because I directly linked to the article and included his stupid little "Satire!!" warning, but sure.

"Look" being the operating word here.
Meanwhile sexism is super pervasive and even praised within feminism; your arguments are themselves evidence of this sexism. I could, like, survey a bunch of articles from Jezebel or WHTM or a feminist subreddit and come up positive for lots and lots of anti-male sentiment. I won't, though.

Please point out how any of my arguments are evidence of sexism. I'd love to hear it.

If you have anything that doesn't require ignoring vital parts of an article or taking a line from a decade-old book out of context, I'd like to see it, though I doubt you have anything of that sort.

Sure, I'll give it a shot. Give me some time.

Source?

sigh I already closed the tab. I know this is bad debate practice, but look it up yourself.

Okay. What makes it a dogwhistle? What about the gesture would indicate that the person using it is a white nationalist and not your typical memelord?

[Diopolis]

So what’s the point of classifying it as a hate symbol when it’s basically just white supremacists joining in on a fucking meme?

It's not only a symbol for white supremacy and SPLC doesn't claim that. The point is that white nationalists are using it to dogwhistle to each other. It is classified as a hate symbol because they use it as one. That doesn't mean that the majority using it are white supremacists, and it doesn't mean that it's in itself a racist symbol. I make OK hand jokes with my girlfriend all the time and I don't think the SPLC is gonna come after my ass and ruin my life because of that.

---

How can I convince someone who doesn't wanna be convinced?

Maybe by actually fairly refuting their points instead of creating strawmen and talking past them. It's funny, because to me, you're the one who won't be convinced in the face of comprehensive arguments.

Oh, right. How dare I complain that the vast majority of the homeless population is men, most drug overdoses are men, most suicides are men, women get treated better in divorce court, they receive lighter sentences than men for the same crimes, breast cancer receives more attention than prostate cancer even though roughly the same number of men die from prostate cancer, etc.

Clearly nothing wrong with any of that.

I have no problem with you pointing out any of that. I have a problem with you blaming it on feminism and saying these things prove that men are less privileged than women because it doesn't actually create progress on those issues. You're only pointing them out for the sake of owning le stupid feminist.

I think this is a case of female fragility.

I'm a man, dipshit, and I've been one since birth.

Nobody's been a man since birth.

[Ors Might]

Okay but the difference here is that the OK hand gesture was never edgy or obscene. I associate it more with that fucking Italian meme than I do white nationalism.

No yet, but if they keep it up and are consistent with it, it can be.

Is it really a popular way of identifying as a white nationalist amongst those sorts, though? Are they actually trying to make it a symbol of white supremacy?

What’s next, the “I love you” hand gesture becomes symbolic of rape culture?

[New haven america]

No yet, but if they keep it up and are consistent with it, it can be.

1. Is it really a popular way of identifying as a white nationalist amongst those sorts, though? 2. Are they actually trying to make it a symbol of white supremacy?

3. What’s next, the “I love you” hand gesture becomes symbolic of rape culture?

1. Nope.
2. Yep.
3. I mean, the Swastika didn't used to be considered a symbol of hate in the West, but look at how it's viewed as now.

[Ors Might]

Anyways, we’re getting off topic.

I find funny how people are suddenly praising Men’s Lib, as if that movement has ever done jack shit to promote men’s rights. It was basically just a deflection for feminists whenever it was questioned what they and their ideology were doing for men.

[New haven america]

Anyways, we’re getting off topic.

I find funny how people are suddenly praising Men’s Lib, as if that movement has ever done jack shit to promote men’s rights. It was basically just a deflection for feminists whenever it was questioned what they and their ideology were doing for men.

I vote that we create an ideology that acknowledges that life sucks for everyone, and then does something about that fact.

Oh wait, is that too logical and efficient? Nevermind...

[Ors Might]

1. Is it really a popular way of identifying as a white nationalist amongst those sorts, though? 2. Are they actually trying to make it a symbol of white supremacy?

3. What’s next, the “I love you” hand gesture becomes symbolic of rape culture?

1. Nope.
2. Yep.
3. I mean, the Swastika didn't used to be considered a symbol of hate in the West, but look at how it's viewed as now.

The circumstances surrounding the Swastika becoming viewed as a hate symbol are a bit different and it could be argued that we should work to reclaim it, given it’s dual status as a religious symbol.

I for one would be upset if the “I love you” gesture was associated with hatred. I did that shit with my mom all the time as a little kid. It was sweet, man..

[Diopolis]

Anyways, we’re getting off topic.

I find funny how people are suddenly praising Men’s Lib, as if that movement has ever done jack shit to promote men’s rights. It was basically just a deflection for feminists whenever it was questioned what they and their ideology were doing for men.

I vote that we create an ideology that acknowledges that life sucks for everyone, and then does something about that fact.

Oh wait, is that too logical and efficient? Nevermind...

I mean, to be logically consistent with it, you'd have to say there was nothing to be done about it. And at that point you're just inventing an atheist version of calvinism.
I for one think this would be fun to watch.

[Ors Might]

Anyways, we’re getting off topic.

I find funny how people are suddenly praising Men’s Lib, as if that movement has ever done jack shit to promote men’s rights. It was basically just a deflection for feminists whenever it was questioned what they and their ideology were doing for men.

I vote that we create an ideology that acknowledges that life sucks for everyone, and then does something about that fact.

Oh wait, is that too logical and efficient? Nevermind...

I think that might be empathy, mate.