UK Politics Thread XI: Boris' Big Bombastic Brexit Bash

[Purgatio]

No, but interpersonal obligations are very different from social obligations. We have child support obligations and alimony obligations because society, including me, believes in the importance of family obligations, and the immorality of child abandonment or spousal abandonment demands that certain interpersonal obligations be put in place so that family obligations don't become meaningless. But interpersonal obligations are very different from societal obligations. A parent being required to take care of and support their own child and give that child personalised support as his or her parent? I like that. Forcing that parent to support every single child in the nation through taxes, children he or she has no relationship or connection to? Immoral and disgusting and reprehensible.

Forcibly tying one person's fate to that of another through the law undermines that <<< This still sounds like it's applicable to any form of relationship, personal or societal.

No, its not, the big difference is the "forcibly" part. You can choose your interpersonal obligations to some extent. Spousal maintenance obligations require you to consent to a marriage first. As for child support, not everyone chooses to be a biological parent, but I'm someone who supports generous access to birth control and abortion, in such a system parentage is very much a choice and if you choose to procreate and have a child, it is fair to ensure the child is looked after and has a family to call his own. Very different proposition to force you to support everyone regardless of any personal or unique familial relationship to you, like your own child.

[Eastfield Lodge]

Forcibly tying one person's fate to that of another through the law undermines that <<< This still sounds like it's applicable to any form of relationship, personal or societal.

No, its not, the big difference is the "forcibly" part. You can choose your interpersonal obligations to some extent. Spousal maintenance obligations require you to consent to a marriage first. As for child support, not everyone chooses to be a biological parent, but I'm someone who supports generous access to birth control and abortion, in such a system parentage is very much a choice and if you choose to procreate and have a child, it is fair to ensure the child is looked after and has a family to call his own. Very different proposition to force you to support everyone regardless of any personal or unique familial relationship to you, like your own child.

And what about situations where parents no longer want to care for children and decide to neglect them?

[Purgatio]

No, its not, the big difference is the "forcibly" part. You can choose your interpersonal obligations to some extent. Spousal maintenance obligations require you to consent to a marriage first. As for child support, not everyone chooses to be a biological parent, but I'm someone who supports generous access to birth control and abortion, in such a system parentage is very much a choice and if you choose to procreate and have a child, it is fair to ensure the child is looked after and has a family to call his own. Very different proposition to force you to support everyone regardless of any personal or unique familial relationship to you, like your own child.

And what about situations where parents no longer want to care for children and decide to neglect them?

Then the law intervenes to enforce a child's right to support and maintenance from his parents. Again, you have a large degree of control over when you become a parent, and I believe every child has a right to a family and a right to be supported by that family, the chief of which are his or her parents. But I fail to see how the arguments in favour of making people responsible for caring for the children they bring into the world supports an open-ended erga omnes obligation of random strangers to sustain the living of other random strangers. The parent-child relationship is a private family relationship, which comes with both rights and obligations, but asking a parent to care for his or her own child, who shares his or her flesh and blood and whom you have a unique and special relationship with is hardly the same as making you financially responsible to support millions of totally random strangers you have no family or special connection with at all.

[Hirota]

Brexit came third in some poll I heard about on newsnight today. 40 % of labour voters who switched did so because of Corbyn, 20 % because of the fantasy land manifesto, 19 because of Brexit.

this is very interesting, because while it condemns corbyn it fundamentally supports what we've been saying all along - left labour policies are not unpopular. there are tens of millions of people that want them. the issue is dressing it up in a nice little package that people will eat up and surviving the tory shit flinging.

I think the electorate is smart enough to see through the shit flinging. But the policies have to be deliverable, and I don't think the electorate simply believed they were deliverable, as nice as they were. Two reasons that I can think of - 1) we are used to the idea of austerity, and 2) Labour and Corbs were so hasty in promising things which they had no idea if they could deliver. His interview with Andrew Neil when he said he'd pay the women affected by pension changes, but had no idea how to do it. It might be the right thing to do, but if it's not achievable , it only invites scrutiny on if other policies are achievable, which combined with Labours often wishy-washy stance on Brexit invites cynicism about the credibility of the wider policies and Labours ability to deliver

The Tories played it very simple - boring even - with their policies. "Get Brexit done" taps into the old school British idea of pulling ones socks up and getting done with a chore (and I think it's considered a chore now because we are tired of it dragging on now, and I think there is also elements of anger at parliament and them being responsible for dragging it out which also affects Labour). But Policy wise, Labour promised the proverbial moon on a stick, and the electorate decided they could not deliver.

But I don't think the left labour policies in themselves are unpopular at all, they just need to be deliverable. I'm not sure this election is a signal to Labour to abandon Corbynism...but maybe it needs to be tempered a little. I do think moving back to the center is a bad idea given how there is evidence the Tories have moved to the left in this election, I'd like some difference between Labour and the Tories.

[TRIEADMORE]

Being of Scottish decent,a supporter of Scottish independence and all,and anti-BREXITeer to the core, I am well and truly devastated by Boris Johnson’s win. Surprised to see how long the BREXIT issue has gone on for this long overriding every other issue.The British public is so fixated on all this BREXIT stuff they need a break from it. And yes I think after 800 years of British rule,Ireland,a Celtic brother nation of Scotland, still refuses to be called British. Rather glad the SNP won by a landslide though to balance out Boris Johnsons win.It makes me rather cheery.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

People who believe in deporting Jews should be expelled from army officer training.

[Purgatio]

People who believe in deporting Jews should be expelled from army officer training.

They definitely don't make up a big proportion of British society

[Crysuko]

People who believe in deporting Jews should be expelled from army officer training.

They definitely don't make up a big proportion of British society

Even so...

[Salandriagado]

Not when it comes at the expense of others.


Ew

Nah, if it's legally-gained wealth it's great. I like it. You should get some, why don't you get some?

A functioning sense of morality, mostly.

[Salandriagado]

I don’t get it, why is a lack of integration from Orthodox Jews a justification for the extreme recourse of ethnic cleansing and mass deportations of British citizens?

Because it is necessary to create a single british culture with its various regional variations but nonetheless distinctly Anglo-Celtic. Those who fall outside of this for ancestral and or cultural reasons must be repatriated.

Why?

[Salandriagado]

I agree with pretty much only the first of those policies.

If you really are blind (you're not), good luck surviving in your ancap utopia

I've had to transcribe things for him often enough that he's either blind or a fantastically good actor.

[The Archregimancy]

As has rightly been noted, if "We should just do Blairism again" was the answer then why didn't people back Chuka, the Libs, or any of the other parties representing that position instead of backing the Tories?

Blairism wouldn't have succeeded without the Alastair Campbell and Peter Mandelson making the press either love or fear the Labour Party and also them personally. Broadly speaking, it's more or less academic what policy direction Labour go in from here; they could be exactly as reactionary as you desire but it won't go anywhere without some excellent spin doctors because most of the press is biased against Labour by default.

The press was also biased against Ramsey MacDonald, Clement Attlee and Harold Wilson; the press was also signficantly more influential under past Labour leaders than it is today. Newspaper circulation is a fraction of what it was even 20 years ago.

Every Labour leader has to face the same problem; yet Attlee and Wilson - and even Blair and Brown after Blair's first term - managed to face that same problem and win.

Assuming that the core problem is biased press coverage will not help Labour recover. Yes, the press is biased. But Labour have managed to overcome this problem with some panache in the past, and with better leadership could overcome it again.

[Phoenicaea]

i suggest ‘conservatives’ had majority because their parts, say tories and nationalists, signed a desistance pact between ‘em before vote.

meanwhile, ‘others’, say labours and liberals, showed without said pact. this gave johnson an electoral gain. do i understand well?

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

<slightly calmer>

Just popping in very quickly to note that the betting markets for Jo Swinson's successor have already been announced.

And Layla Moran is the favourite.

As I noted earlier in the thread, the leadership contest will most likely be Davey v. Moran.

I would have a real problem voting Lib Dem if Moran wins, because of her domestic violence.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

People who believe in deporting Jews should be expelled from army officer training.

They definitely don't make up a big proportion of British society

Jews or neo-Nazis?

[Purgatio]

They definitely don't make up a big proportion of British society

Jews or neo-Nazis?

neo-Nazis

[Purgatio]

<slightly calmer>

Just popping in very quickly to note that the betting markets for Jo Swinson's successor have already been announced.

And Layla Moran is the favourite.

As I noted earlier in the thread, the leadership contest will most likely be Davey v. Moran.

I would have a real problem voting Lib Dem if Moran wins, because of her domestic violence.

Its not just the domestic violence, its her rather victim-blaming explanation for it (the whole "threatened" excuse)

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Interesting vox pops from Leigh on the BBC just now. Paraphrasing some of it - this election result wasn't a sea change in British politics, those traditional Labour areas that voted Conservative this time only loaned those votes for this election. It was a vote to end parliamentary deadlock rather than an affirmation for Johnson's approach to Brexit.

[New Bremerton]

Just one day in and already this is happening.

People didn't vote the way they were supposed to. They were either too stupid to know what they were voting for, or just plain old racist fascist bigots. The northern working class is poor and oppressed by the evil Tories and deserve our endless empathy and compassion, except when they vote the wrong way, then they're just a vile, ignorant basket of deplorables and we can't wait for them to die out and be replaced by enlightened young voters like us. We should routinely sneer at them, insult their intelligence and impugn sinister motives against them. That's sure to win them over to our cause. Just look at the elections we won way back in 1997, 2001 and 2005 when moderate right-wing traitor Tony Blair was in charge, Momentum didn't even exist and we had nothing to do with Labour's success. /s

We should have a second election. You know, like a people's vote? It's not really democracy unless we have it our way. We're just defending democracy by protesting against the result of a free and fair election that was held just yesterday, just like we protested against the result of a free and fair vote in which 17.4 million people voted to Leave with no preconditions, no negotiations, no delay, no dither, and no deal. /s

We should demonstrate in Westminster, stamp our feet in righteous indignation and call everyone we disagree with racist, fascist, homophobic, misogynistic, Islamophobic, transphobic scum until we get the result we want with Dear Leader Corbyn as the Prime Minister of a People's Democratic Soviet Socialist Republic of Great Britain (minus Scotland) and Brexit cancelled. We're young, enlightened, middle-class university students who have never experienced the daily hardships of the actual working class who obviously know what's best for everyone. Our professors say so, so they must be right. We may have lost this election, but surely we'll learn from our mistakes, won't we? /s

[Vassenor]

Just one day in and already this is happening.

People didn't vote the way they were supposed to. They were either too stupid to know what they were voting for, or just plain old racist fascist bigots. The northern working class is poor and oppressed by the evil Tories and deserve our endless empathy and compassion, except when they vote the wrong way, then they're just a vile, ignorant basket of deplorables and we can't wait for them to die out and be replaced by enlightened young voters like us. We should routinely sneer at them, insult their intelligence and impugn sinister motives against them. That's sure to win them over to our cause. Just look at the elections we won way back in 1997, 2001 and 2005 when moderate right-wing traitor Tony Blair was in charge, Momentum didn't even exist and we had nothing to do with Labour's success. /s

We should have a second election. You know, like a people's vote? It's not really democracy unless we have it our way. We're just defending democracy by protesting against the result of a free and fair election that was held just yesterday, just like we protested against the result of a free and fair vote in which 17.4 million people voted to Leave with no preconditions, no negotiations, no delay, no dither, and no deal. /s

We should demonstrate in Westminster, stamp our feet in righteous indignation and call everyone we disagree with racist, fascist, homophobic, misogynistic, Islamophobic, transphobic scum until we get the result we want with Dear Leader Corbyn as the Prime Minister of a People's Democratic Soviet Socialist Republic of Great Britain (minus Scotland) and Brexit cancelled. We're young, enlightened, middle-class university students who have never experienced the daily hardships of the actual working class who obviously know what's best for everyone. Our professors say so, so they must be right. We may have lost this election, but surely we'll learn from our mistakes, won't we? /s

So what you're saying is that people exercising their right to protest is bad because the Daily Mail said so?

[Dooom35796821595]

Just one day in and already this is happening.

People didn't vote the way they were supposed to. They were either too stupid to know what they were voting for, or just plain old racist fascist bigots. The northern working class is poor and oppressed by the evil Tories and deserve our endless empathy and compassion, except when they vote the wrong way, then they're just a vile, ignorant basket of deplorables and we can't wait for them to die out and be replaced by enlightened young voters like us. We should routinely sneer at them, insult their intelligence and impugn sinister motives against them. That's sure to win them over to our cause. Just look at the elections we won way back in 1997, 2001 and 2005 when moderate right-wing traitor Tony Blair was in charge, Momentum didn't even exist and we had nothing to do with Labour's success. /s

We should have a second election. You know, like a people's vote? It's not really democracy unless we have it our way. We're just defending democracy by protesting against the result of a free and fair election that was held just yesterday, just like we protested against the result of a free and fair vote in which 17.4 million people voted to Leave with no preconditions, no negotiations, no delay, no dither, and no deal. /s

We should demonstrate in Westminster, stamp our feet in righteous indignation and call everyone we disagree with racist, fascist, homophobic, misogynistic, Islamophobic, transphobic scum until we get the result we want with Dear Leader Corbyn as the Prime Minister of a People's Democratic Soviet Socialist Republic of Great Britain (minus Scotland) and Brexit cancelled. We're young, enlightened, middle-class university students who have never experienced the daily hardships of the actual working class who obviously know what's best for everyone. Our professors say so, so they must be right. We may have lost this election, but surely we'll learn from our mistakes, won't we? /s

What happened to those water cannons Boris bought as Mayor? Because this seemed like an excellent chance to test them.

[Turbofolkia]

Interesting vox pops from Leigh on the BBC just now. Paraphrasing some of it - this election result wasn't a sea change in British politics, those traditional Labour areas that voted Conservative this time only loaned those votes for this election. It was a vote to end parliamentary deadlock rather than an affirmation for Johnson's approach to Brexit.

The thing is, the Tories have received the votes of these people, which would have been unimaginable even 15 or 20 years ago. All they have to do is to work to keep their votes and build on their support, which is easier than winning their votes in the first place.

[Vassenor]

Interesting vox pops from Leigh on the BBC just now. Paraphrasing some of it - this election result wasn't a sea change in British politics, those traditional Labour areas that voted Conservative this time only loaned those votes for this election. It was a vote to end parliamentary deadlock rather than an affirmation for Johnson's approach to Brexit.

The thing is, the Tories have received the votes of these people, which would have been unimaginable even 15 or 20 years ago. All they have to do is to work to keep their votes and build on their support, which is easier than winning their votes in the first place.

Wonder how they'll do that when Austerity bites again.

[Ostroeuropa]

Interesting vox pops from Leigh on the BBC just now. Paraphrasing some of it - this election result wasn't a sea change in British politics, those traditional Labour areas that voted Conservative this time only loaned those votes for this election. It was a vote to end parliamentary deadlock rather than an affirmation for Johnson's approach to Brexit.

As others have noted they have now successfully broken through in terms of "I would never vote for the conservatives in a million years." no longer holding true for massive swathes of the country in the Labour heartlands.

Conversely, how likely is it to you think Conservative strongholds might decide to vote Labour at some point in the future?

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

We should demonstrate in Westminster, stamp our feet in righteous indignation and call everyone we disagree with racist, fascist, homophobic, misogynistic, Islamophobic, transphobic scum until we get the result we want with Dear Leader Corbyn as the Prime Minister of a People's Democratic Soviet Socialist Republic of Great Britain (minus Scotland) and Brexit cancelled. We're young, enlightened, middle-class university students who have never experienced the daily hardships of the actual working class who obviously know what's best for everyone. Our professors say so, so they must be right. We may have lost this election, but surely we'll learn from our mistakes, won't we? /s

Now that is just pure red-baiting crankery combined with a large dose of strawmen fallacies that would make even Alex Jones and the John Birch Society blush. Typically what one would expect from someone who unironically thinks that the Daily Mail is a reliable source. And funny how you stereotype Remainers as "out of touch elites stuck in their ivory towers", when Nigel Farage is a son of a former broker, and Jacob Rees-Mogg is the son of a wealthy newspaper editor and a life peer in the House of Lords, and in addition to that, he is a alumnus of Eton, both of which are most definitely not working class at all.