No they wouldn’t. They already have plans to move operations to the EU. No deal would hurt the working class you hate
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by Thermodolia » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:17 am
by Hirota » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:19 am
by Vassenor » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:20 am
by Thermodolia » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:21 am
by Thermodolia » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:22 am
The Archregimancy wrote:Vassenor wrote:So do we have enough info to do a proper post-mortem yet or are we still wildly scapegoating?
Well, you could always offer your own proper post-mortem instead of snarking about the failures of others.
Why not give it a try? You never know, you might even like it.
by Vassenor » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:23 am
Thermodolia wrote:Hirota wrote:I'm sorry Vass, maybe you've not actually seen the election results. Go away and come back and then tell us precisely how popular these policies actually were.
The policies are pretty popular however the majority wants Brexit and Corbyn and Labour did too much waffling on that for people to take them seriously. Interesting a lot of labour voters in North went to BXP
by Hirota » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:25 am
Luckily I never said I want Labour to "lurch rightward." But there certainly is a middle ground between Corbism and Blair that is being sneered at far too much by the far left to keep Labour credible. But it's up to Labour to decide if they want to become credible candidates again and earn some popularity in the working class...you know, that traditional core demographic of theirs.Vassenor wrote:Thermodolia wrote:The policies are pretty popular however the majority wants Brexit and Corbyn and Labour did too much waffling on that for people to take them seriously. Interesting a lot of labour voters in North went to BXP
But that's bad for the idea that Labour needs to lurch rightward immediately.
by Shofercia » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:26 am
by Prydania » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:27 am
by Thermodolia » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:28 am
The Archregimancy wrote:Purgatio wrote:https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18098627.boris-johnson-says-brexit-will-get-done-january-31-no-ifs-no-buts/“We must recognise the incredible reality that we now speak as a one nation Conservative Party literally for everyone from Woking to Workington, from Kensington I’m proud to say to Clwyd South, from Surrey Heath to Sedgefield, from Wimbledon to Wolverhampton.”
He added: “Parliament must change so that we in Parliament are working for you the British people.”
Mr Johnson said Brexit will get done by January 31 “no ifs, no buts”.
He said: “And I will make it my mission to work night and day, flat out to prove that you were right in voting for me this time, and to earn your support in the future.
Looks like Prime Minister Johnson has spoken, a (likely no-deal) Brexit by 31 January 2020. Oh boy, this will be entertaining.
You're mistaken; there will be a deal.
Parliament will now move the legislation to approve Johnson's deal before Christmas, and this will pass in time for the UK to leave the EU by the 31st of January.
The potential for no deal now comes in the subsequent trade negotiations, and the possibility that the government will simply walk out those negotiations without reaching a deal if no agreement is reached by the relevant deadline.
by Thermodolia » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:30 am
Hirota wrote:Prydania wrote:He remains the most successful Labour leader. Makes one think that maybe going further to the left was a mistake.
...I'm not sure. Whilst I'm snarky at Vass apparently not knowing how to read polls, I actually don't think the policies are the problem. There is a fair amount in Labours manifesto that would obviously benefit the working class.
I personally think it's Labours continued sneering at the Brexit result (which was overwelmingly supported by the working class) that punished Labour. Ironically, if Corbs was allowed to be the eurosceptic he's always been, I think he'd probably have had more support from the working class. Instead he was in power as Labour leader only because of the large pro-EU, paternalistic, identiarian bloc in the form of Momentum...the same ideology that caused the working class to turn against Labour.
I'm still mulling it over though. Lots to digest from this result.
by Purgatio » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:31 am
Vassenor wrote:The Archregimancy wrote:Prediction for next LibDem leadership contest for the small number of you who care:
Ed Davey versus Layla Moran, with Davey winning.
Southwest London versus Oxford will do nothing to dispel the idea that the LibDems are a party of middle-class handwringers, academics, and rural voters from the outer edges of Scotland. But it's not as if there's a lot of choice given Farron is out and Carmichael - who holds our safest seat - consistently rules himself out given how far away Orkney and Shetland are.
Still, there's an outside chance that the UK's third-largest political party is about to be led by a British-Palestinian (Moran), so there's that.
And the gutter press would probably have a field day with that given how loudly Corbyn being pro-Palestine was spun into proof of high grade anti-Semitism. Imagine how they'd handle someone of actual Palestinian extraction when the objective is to slam down possible challengers to the government.
Maybe it'll be the thing that makes the tabloids finally tear each other apart .
by An Alan Smithee Nation » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:32 am
by Purgatio » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:34 am
Thermodolia wrote:The Archregimancy wrote:
You're mistaken; there will be a deal.
Parliament will now move the legislation to approve Johnson's deal before Christmas, and this will pass in time for the UK to leave the EU by the 31st of January.
The potential for no deal now comes in the subsequent trade negotiations, and the possibility that the government will simply walk out those negotiations without reaching a deal if no agreement is reached by the relevant deadline.
See I’m not so sure about that. I think BoJo will go back on the deal and just get that “must ask for extension bill” repealed and then do nothing.
I don’t actually think that he plans on following through with his deal at all. The idea has been from the beginning to crash out
by Thermodolia » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:34 am
Prydania wrote:Vassenor wrote:
So what are you predicting will be the Black Wednesday that destroys the Conservatives' credibility then?
I don't think that Labour's cure is as simple as waiting for the Conservatives to implode. I mean that will help, yes, but Labour only won 203 seats. That's their worst showing since 1935. You can't brush that aside, blame the media, Brexit, or Jews (as Ken Livingstone did). You have to come to terms with the fact that Corbyn's brand of Labour politics was utterly wiped out and rejected, by a large portion of their supposed base.
I understand self-reflection isn't a skill common amongst radicals, but this proves that Corbyn's direction did not resonate. And so, to successfully rebuild Labour, you can't just be about "we're not the Tories." You actually have to fix what the populace found off-putting about your politics.
Modelling the party on Blair's New Labour isn't the worse thing in the world, when you consider how far reaching and successful New Labour was. It wasn't hardcore socialism, but it wrestled the country away from the Tories and it progressed the UK as a nation across a number of areas.
by Purgatio » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:35 am
Shofercia wrote:Wow, what a slaughter.
by Vassenor » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:36 am
Prydania wrote:Vassenor wrote:
So what are you predicting will be the Black Wednesday that destroys the Conservatives' credibility then?
I don't think that Labour's cure is as simple as waiting for the Conservatives to implode. I mean that will help, yes, but Labour only won 203 seats. That's their worst showing since 1935. You can't brush that aside, blame the media, Brexit, or Jews (as Ken Livingstone did). You have to come to terms with the fact that Corbyn's brand of Labour politics was utterly wiped out and rejected, by a large portion of their supposed base.
I understand self-reflection isn't a skill common amongst radicals, but this proves that Corbyn's direction did not resonate. And so, to successfully rebuild Labour, you can't just be about "we're not the Tories." You actually have to fix what the populace found off-putting about your politics.
Modelling the party on Blair's New Labour isn't the worse thing in the world, when you consider how far reaching and successful New Labour was. It wasn't hardcore socialism, but it wrestled the country away from the Tories and it progressed the UK as a nation across a number of areas.
by Thermodolia » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:37 am
Purgatio wrote:Thermodolia wrote:See I’m not so sure about that. I think BoJo will go back on the deal and just get that “must ask for extension bill” repealed and then do nothing.
I don’t actually think that he plans on following through with his deal at all. The idea has been from the beginning to crash out
Especially since the transitional deal would require the UK to adopt certain EU VAT rules with respect to goods sold in Northern Ireland, and allowing the EU to have some involement on enforcing regulations in points of entry on the Northern Ireland-Ireland border, and we know how Boris Johnson and the other hard-right Tory backbenchers feel about the UK legal order mirroring and complying in any way with rules established by the EU
by Prydania » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:40 am
Vassenor wrote:Prydania wrote:I don't think that Labour's cure is as simple as waiting for the Conservatives to implode. I mean that will help, yes, but Labour only won 203 seats. That's their worst showing since 1935. You can't brush that aside, blame the media, Brexit, or Jews (as Ken Livingstone did). You have to come to terms with the fact that Corbyn's brand of Labour politics was utterly wiped out and rejected, by a large portion of their supposed base.
I understand self-reflection isn't a skill common amongst radicals, but this proves that Corbyn's direction did not resonate. And so, to successfully rebuild Labour, you can't just be about "we're not the Tories." You actually have to fix what the populace found off-putting about your politics.
Modelling the party on Blair's New Labour isn't the worse thing in the world, when you consider how far reaching and successful New Labour was. It wasn't hardcore socialism, but it wrestled the country away from the Tories and it progressed the UK as a nation across a number of areas.
And New Labour was successful at first because the Conservatives had imploded in the wake of Major's fuckups.
by Vassenor » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:41 am
by The Archregimancy » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:43 am
Hirota wrote:Prydania wrote:He remains the most successful Labour leader. Makes one think that maybe going further to the left was a mistake.
...I'm not sure. Whilst I'm snarky at Vass apparently not knowing how to read polls, I actually don't think the policies are the problem. There is a fair amount in Labours manifesto that would obviously benefit the working class.
I personally think it's Labours continued sneering at the Brexit result (which was overwelmingly supported by the working class) that punished Labour. Ironically, if Corbs was allowed to be the eurosceptic he's always been, I think he'd probably have had more support from the working class. Instead he was in power as Labour leader only because of the large pro-EU, paternalistic, identiarian bloc in the form of Momentum...the same ideology that caused the working class to turn against Labour.
I'm still mulling it over though. Lots to digest from this result.
by Prydania » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:45 am
by Vassenor » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:48 am
Prydania wrote:Vassenor wrote:
So I take it you can prove that this loss was because of policy blowback then? Given that your argument is riding on it.
I think that you, and other Corbyn supporters, are going to ridiculous lengths to deny the obvious. As I said, you can't just write this loss off. This is a historic defeat. "Michael Foot in '83" historic.
I mean I'm arguing for a version of Labour that won the largest majorities in the party's history. You're continuing to insist a version of Labout that got wiped out by Boris G-ddman Johnson of all people is still viable.
No, sorry. Corbyn's direction didn't just fail. It was an utter disaster.
by Prydania » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:50 am
Vassenor wrote:Prydania wrote:I think that you, and other Corbyn supporters, are going to ridiculous lengths to deny the obvious. As I said, you can't just write this loss off. This is a historic defeat. "Michael Foot in '83" historic.
I mean I'm arguing for a version of Labour that won the largest majorities in the party's history. You're continuing to insist a version of Labout that got wiped out by Boris G-ddman Johnson of all people is still viable.
No, sorry. Corbyn's direction didn't just fail. It was an utter disaster.
So that's a no then. Because I'm not sure how "I support the policies but I can't vote for him" is his direction itself failing.
by Vassenor » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:51 am
Prydania wrote:Vassenor wrote:
So that's a no then. Because I'm not sure how "I support the policies but I can't vote for him" is his direction itself failing.
What's your proof that was the cause of Labour's wipe-out?
I mean it. This is, essentially, the political version of the Big Foot debate. It falls on the person making the extraordinary claim to provide evidence. And the idea that Corbyn's version of Labour is still electorally viable after a historic wipe-out like this? That's the extraordinary claim here.
You don't get to suffer one of the most lopsided electoral defeats in British history and claim that it's patently obvious your side totally has the more popular platform.
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