LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

[Tekeristan]

Imagine Socrates going "cite your sources lmao"

Yeah how dare people ask for proof rather than be gullible idiots.

Dude how could you be anymore clueless

[Saiwania]

No, they can't. The industrial mode of production beat artisans out. That is why we don't have very many artisans. People had to go work in the factories because the factories produce far cheaper than they ever could. No. Capitalism cares about who *owns* things, not who works them.

The artisan role is equivalent to the skilled trades for the most part, which still exist and still have a place in society currently. A lot of skilled tradespersons as a matter of fact, earn more than some 4 year college graduates starting out.

[Torrocca]

Allow me to yet again tell you how debates work - You either cite your sources or your full of shit. If you refuse to do so then don't get butthurt when people refuse to believe your cockamamie witchcraft bullshit.

Imagine Socrates going "cite your sources lmao"

"Bro, Plato bro, LOOK AT ME BRO, I'm citing my sources so hard hnnng *flexes citation muscles* cite your sources bro, come at me bro I need you to cite all your sources this is a super duper serious debate about the Socratic method bro, cite your damn sources bro or everybody's gonna laugh at you at the forum tomorrow bro"

"Socrates what the fuck"

[Chernoslavia]

Yeah how dare people ask for proof rather than be gullible idiots.

Dude how could you be anymore clueless

I ask you the same.

[Tekeristan]

No, they can't. The industrial mode of production beat artisans out. That is why we don't have very many artisans. People had to go work in the factories because the factories produce far cheaper than they ever could. No. Capitalism cares about who *owns* things, not who works them.

The artisan role is equivalent to the skilled trades for the most part, which still exist and still have a place in society currently. A lot of skilled tradespersons as a matter of fact, earn more than some 4 year college graduates starting out.

I'm well aware - I'm in fact a tradesperson, in a union actually. But here's a special bit : I'm in construction
I'm not making leather shoes and hats or tools. Why? Because the factory model of production has made me making those things in my small guild or by myself economically infeasible for me to make a living on.
Construction, while becoming steadily improved in certain ways, cannot be regulated to the factory floor. But capitalism has still regulated us into being wage-laborers, which has several strong consequences of its own.

[Tekeristan]

Imagine Socrates going "cite your sources lmao"

"Bro, Plato bro, LOOK AT ME BRO, I'm citing my sources so hard hnnng *flexes citation muscles* cite your sources bro, come at me bro I need you to cite all your sources this is a super duper serious debate about the Socratic method bro, cite your damn sources bro or everybody's gonna laugh at you at the forum tomorrow bro"

"Socrates what the fuck"

I hope he seriously comes to realize what exactly he is saying but there's probably a decent chance he never will and that says something

[Chernoslavia]

"Bro, Plato bro, LOOK AT ME BRO, I'm citing my sources so hard hnnng *flexes citation muscles* cite your sources bro, come at me bro I need you to cite all your sources this is a super duper serious debate about the Socratic method bro, cite your damn sources bro or everybody's gonna laugh at you at the forum tomorrow bro"

"Socrates what the fuck"

I hope he seriously comes to realize what exactly he is saying but there's probably a decent chance he never will and that says something

And I hope you realize that nobody has to believe your bullshit when you have nothing to back them up with. Cry some more.

[Antityranicals]

The artisan role is equivalent to the skilled trades for the most part, which still exist and still have a place in society currently. A lot of skilled tradespersons as a matter of fact, earn more than some 4 year college graduates starting out.

I'm well aware - I'm in fact a tradesperson, in a union actually. But here's a special bit : I'm in construction
I'm not making leather shoes and hats or tools. Why? Because the factory model of production has made me making those things in my small guild or by myself economically infeasible for me to make a living on.
Construction, while becoming steadily improved in certain ways, cannot be regulated to the factory floor. But capitalism has still regulated us into being wage-laborers, which has several strong consequences of its own.

Capitalism has not regulated you into being wage-laborers. Risk aversion did that. What people forget when talking about "wage slavery" is that firstly, people are always free to try to help society in another way without working for someone, and if this method of helping society is actually useful, you'll get people to pay for it. But also, the main reason why people work for wages is because they are far more stable. People choose to work at these jobs because they'll get paid whether or not the company does well in a particular quarter or year. I personally don't value stability very highly, and thus I wouldn't choose to work wage work. However, this is no reason to call anyone who chooses otherwise "slaves."

[Saiwania]

I could foresee 3D printers potentially disrupting the construction industry for construction workers. At a large and expensive scale, parts of buildings can be printed and from there, it could be assembled like legos figuratively speaking. This has the effect of lowering construction costs by a lot and might make building dwellings in general- cheaper and more affordable in spite of the expenses that come with buying and holding land.

[Torrocca]

Honestly, I'm not at all surprised that we've gotten a 5+ page debate - on an obscure political forum on the internet that has no heavy impact on our day-to-day lives, mind you - that hinges on somebody screaming "sOuRcE bAd >>>:V" and then acting like they've won because the source in question doesn't align with their personal beliefs.

[Tekeristan]

I'm well aware - I'm in fact a tradesperson, in a union actually. But here's a special bit : I'm in construction
I'm not making leather shoes and hats or tools. Why? Because the factory model of production has made me making those things in my small guild or by myself economically infeasible for me to make a living on.
Construction, while becoming steadily improved in certain ways, cannot be regulated to the factory floor. But capitalism has still regulated us into being wage-laborers, which has several strong consequences of its own.

Capitalism has not regulated you into being wage-laborers. Risk aversion did that. What people forget when talking about "wage slavery" is that firstly, people are always free to try to help society in another way without working for someone, and if this method of helping society is actually useful, you'll get people to pay for it. But also, the main reason why people work for wages is because they are far more stable. People choose to work at these jobs because they'll get paid whether or not the company does well in a particular quarter or year. I personally don't value stability very highly, and thus I wouldn't choose to work wage work. However, this is no reason to call anyone who chooses otherwise "slaves."

Yes. That is why most production is coordinated by individuals producing their own goods, you know, artisans, who enrich the local community, rather than working minimum wage in order to purchase food to not.. *looks at palm* starve to death.
Dude, do you have a job? You have no understanding of the argument being presented. This could seriously be rectified if you spent 30 minutes reading wage labor and capital, or even just the manifesto, but hhhhh I don't expect any better to be honest

[Antityranicals]

I could foresee 3D printers potentially disrupting the construction industry for construction workers. At a large and expensive scale, parts of buildings can be printed and from there, it could be assembled like legos figuratively speaking. This has the effect of lowering construction prices by a lot and might make building dwellings in general- cheaper and more affordable in spite of the expenses that come with buying and holding land.

That's something people should rejoice about. This could be the final solution to homelessness. Sure, it might displace labor, but people having to spend less on housing means they can spend more on other things, meaning more jobs. Automation here might mean less jobs in the construction industry, but not only will there be more elsewhere, but cost of living will decrease, which is always a good thing.

[Antityranicals]

Capitalism has not regulated you into being wage-laborers. Risk aversion did that. What people forget when talking about "wage slavery" is that firstly, people are always free to try to help society in another way without working for someone, and if this method of helping society is actually useful, you'll get people to pay for it. But also, the main reason why people work for wages is because they are far more stable. People choose to work at these jobs because they'll get paid whether or not the company does well in a particular quarter or year. I personally don't value stability very highly, and thus I wouldn't choose to work wage work. However, this is no reason to call anyone who chooses otherwise "slaves."

Yes. That is why most production is coordinated by individuals producing their own goods, you know, artisans, who enrich the local community, rather than working minimum wage in order to purchase food to not.. *looks at palm* starve to death.
Dude, do you have a job? You have no understanding of the argument being presented. This could seriously be rectified if you spent 30 minutes reading wage labor and capital, or even just the manifesto, but hhhhh I don't expect any better to be honest

I've read the damn manifesto, it simply has nothing to do with reality. Most people are risk-averse, and so they work for wages.

[Tekeristan]

I could foresee 3D printers potentially disrupting the construction industry for construction workers. At a large and expensive scale, parts of buildings can be printed and from there, it could be assembled like legos figuratively speaking. This has the effect of lowering construction prices by a lot and might make building dwellings in general- cheaper and more affordable in spite of the expenses that come with buying and holding land.

That's something people should rejoice about. This could be the final solution to homelessness. Sure, it might displace labor, but people having to spend less on housing means they can spend more on other things, meaning more jobs. Automation here might mean less jobs in the construction industry, but not only will there be more elsewhere, but cost of living will decrease, which is always a good thing.

There will never be a solution to homelessness under the capitalist economy. You're operating under the pretense like there is somehow not enough houses for people as things already are or that there isn't enough productive capacity already present to fix that

[Tekeristan]

Yes. That is why most production is coordinated by individuals producing their own goods, you know, artisans, who enrich the local community, rather than working minimum wage in order to purchase food to not.. *looks at palm* starve to death.
Dude, do you have a job? You have no understanding of the argument being presented. This could seriously be rectified if you spent 30 minutes reading wage labor and capital, or even just the manifesto, but hhhhh I don't expect any better to be honest

I've read the damn manifesto, it simply has nothing to do with reality. Most people are risk-averse, and so they work for wages.

Ok. Why did the artisan fade largely out of existence?

[Antityranicals]

That's something people should rejoice about. This could be the final solution to homelessness. Sure, it might displace labor, but people having to spend less on housing means they can spend more on other things, meaning more jobs. Automation here might mean less jobs in the construction industry, but not only will there be more elsewhere, but cost of living will decrease, which is always a good thing.

There will never be a solution to homelessness under the capitalist economy. You're operating under the pretense like there is somehow not enough houses for people as things already are or that there isn't enough productive capacity already present to fix that

There would be a number of easier solutions to homelessness certainly, principally removing zoning laws which raise property values and with them rent at the cost of the poor, and rent controls which make apartments a scarcity.

[Chernoslavia]

Honestly, I'm not at all surprised that we've gotten a 5+ page debate - on an obscure political forum on the internet that has no heavy impact on our day-to-day lives, mind you - that hinges on somebody screaming "sOuRcE bAd >>>:V" and then acting like they've won because the source in question doesn't align with their personal beliefs.

A source that has literally no fucking links to any trusted source or study from any institution. Not from harvard, CNN, Fox, government data, NOTHING.

So yeah, his source is shit. Don't care about your feelings.

[Antityranicals]

I've read the damn manifesto, it simply has nothing to do with reality. Most people are risk-averse, and so they work for wages.

Ok. Why did the artisan fade largely out of existence?

Because he was inefficient. He failed. There's no reason why you have to.

[Chernoslavia]

Ok. Why did the artisan fade largely out of existence?

Because he was inefficient. He failed. There's no reason why you have to.

He's basically blaming people for having market demands.

[Tekeristan]

Honestly, I'm not at all surprised that we've gotten a 5+ page debate - on an obscure political forum on the internet that has no heavy impact on our day-to-day lives, mind you - that hinges on somebody screaming "sOuRcE bAd >>>:V" and then acting like they've won because the source in question doesn't align with their personal beliefs.

A source that has literally no fucking links to any trusted source or study from any institution. Not from harvard, CNN, Fox, government data, NOTHING.

So yeah, his source is shit. Don't care about your feelings.

Satire is dead

[Tekeristan]

Ok. Why did the artisan fade largely out of existence?

Because he was inefficient. He failed. There's no reason why you have to.

So the artisan mode of production faded out because it was inefficient? Good, good you're on the right track!
Anyway feel free to find me a job in your locality that doesn't pay you by the hour or salary lol

[Tekeristan]

Honestly, I'm not at all surprised that we've gotten a 5+ page debate - on an obscure political forum on the internet that has no heavy impact on our day-to-day lives, mind you - that hinges on somebody screaming "sOuRcE bAd >>>:V" and then acting like they've won because the source in question doesn't align with their personal beliefs.

Torocca please it can't be real, please tell me it isn't real

[Cappuccina]

I'm well aware - I'm in fact a tradesperson, in a union actually. But here's a special bit : I'm in construction
I'm not making leather shoes and hats or tools. Why? Because the factory model of production has made me making those things in my small guild or by myself economically infeasible for me to make a living on.
Construction, while becoming steadily improved in certain ways, cannot be regulated to the factory floor. But capitalism has still regulated us into being wage-laborers, which has several strong consequences of its own.

Capitalism has not regulated you into being wage-laborers. Risk aversion did that. What people forget when talking about "wage slavery" is that firstly, people are always free to try to help society in another way without working for someone, and if this method of helping society is actually useful, you'll get people to pay for it. But also, the main reason why people work for wages is because they are far more stable. People choose to work at these jobs because they'll get paid whether or not the company does well in a particular quarter or year. I personally don't value stability very highly, and thus I wouldn't choose to work wage work. However, this is no reason to call anyone who chooses otherwise "slaves."

Yes, stability is a factor, primary because most people have other things (like their family) to consider when making risky ventures, and thus they cannot realistically do that.

[Saiwania]

On The Young Turks the other day, Cenk or Ana or maybe it was John, were talking with some guest who brought up Rent Control and defended it quite poorly in that he gave no concrete reason for why the rent control he proposes would work in making housing more affordable or common for people who need it. It was an absolute joke. The guest was so unpersuasive, yet the TYT cast were seemingly all on board with it.

We know from history anyways, that rent control causes the supply of housing to decrease generally speaking. It sucks.

[Nakena]

I've should have added that its an european impression. Things in the US might be running very different and my personal experience dates from before the rise of the current cultural wars and whatever else is going on. What I can tell that those salon-leftists had back then a well-guarded and well-funded niche of their own within academic institutions and associations, parties, networks and the likes. A whole network and social and economical habitat for those people to exist and thrive. Its also one of the major breeding grounds and recruiting pools for the european political elites, specifically (but not only) on the "left" and liberal side of things.

Any actual "revolution" of any kind would destroy the very system they're not only thriving within, but which they partly now control and run for their self-perptuating existence.

The conservative milieu is somewhat smaller and has it's own structures and is a bit different and occupies different functions within society.

I do know what kind of sphere of people you're talking about and I sort of empathize with you. It's the crowd of people that are commonly refered to as "Liberal Communists", in that they are oh-so-entranched by the ideals of things but entirely unwilling to detach themselves from the material relations that make those ideals impossible in the first place. They're a bunch of well off hypocrites who, even if sincere, think that working within the system will somehow revert it before they inevitably fall to their liberal tendencies.

I actually know one really well, lol. They were "leaning" "commie" supposedly when they were younger, but apparently have flipped out of it because of this very crowd. Despite literally being part of that crowd. I can't necessarily blame them, but ever since I've gone commie our relationship has become quite a strange one. Despite arguing over things we never necessarily part and if I had to guess from my own emotional speculation they're having a lot of internal conflict about things. Poor person, I seriously wish things turn out okay for em :/

I sincerely doubt anyone can actually go truly communist and make it out fully, because to become one you have to realize the material relationships in the world, and that doesn't exactly bury well beneath liberal thought. I doubt any such people were fully involved in the first place.

I have the impression a lot of those people join that stuff because they want to be on the feel-good-and-just side of things. And I would agree that they are fundamentally liberal, at least when we make the destinction line actual hardcore socialism/communism here. So it might as well be also a question of motivation, what motivates someone to do what they do or get into an ideology. I think its always also a personal question as much as it is one of trends and such. For example its perfectly understandable and reasonable that a lot of students and young people flock to "left" things in the US. But do they really want, the marxist definition of socialism or just something more like the nordic model?

I'm well aware - I'm in fact a tradesperson, in a union actually. But here's a special bit : I'm in construction
I'm not making leather shoes and hats or tools. Why? Because the factory model of production has made me making those things in my small guild or by myself economically infeasible for me to make a living on.
Construction, while becoming steadily improved in certain ways, cannot be regulated to the factory floor. But capitalism has still regulated us into being wage-laborers, which has several strong consequences of its own.

Any specialization or general construction work?