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by Thermodolia » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:11 pm
by True Refuge » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:14 pm
Thermodolia wrote:Lost Memories wrote:Wanted to share this piece of an article, and get some points of view from this thread regulars:
https://www.theblaze.com/news/former-tr ... sex-change
(^conservative biased source)
Source aside, how would you classify a case like the above? Assuming just hypothetically it was all true, if you absolutely can't come to trust the source.
Would the above be a rare occurrence? Something common? The usual occurrence?
What about the need to check for underlying issues and traumas at the root of gender dysphoria, to address and resolve them if they are found?
And only if the gender dysphoria persists after the found issues are solved or they're absent, continue on with a physical approach to it?
Is the above reasoning, expressed in the article, something accepted? Questioned? Debated? Ignored?
More evidence that transitioning isn’t going to solve anything.
"One does not need to be surprised then, when 26 years later the outrageous slogan is repeated, which we Marxists burned all bridges with: to “pick up” the banner of the bourgeoisie. - International Communist Party, Dialogue with Stalin.
by The New California Republic » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:19 pm
by Hediacrana » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:56 pm
Thermodolia wrote:More evidence that transitioning isn’t going to solve anything.
by True Refuge » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:57 pm
Hediacrana wrote:Nice demonstration of unreflective confirmation bias there.
"One does not need to be surprised then, when 26 years later the outrageous slogan is repeated, which we Marxists burned all bridges with: to “pick up” the banner of the bourgeoisie. - International Communist Party, Dialogue with Stalin.
by Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:58 pm
Thermodolia wrote:Lost Memories wrote:Wanted to share this piece of an article, and get some points of view from this thread regulars:
https://www.theblaze.com/news/former-tr ... sex-change
(^conservative biased source)
Source aside, how would you classify a case like the above? Assuming just hypothetically it was all true, if you absolutely can't come to trust the source.
Would the above be a rare occurrence? Something common? The usual occurrence?
What about the need to check for underlying issues and traumas at the root of gender dysphoria, to address and resolve them if they are found?
And only if the gender dysphoria persists after the found issues are solved or they're absent, continue on with a physical approach to it?
Is the above reasoning, expressed in the article, something accepted? Questioned? Debated? Ignored?
More evidence that transitioning isn’t going to solve anything.
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGsRIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria
by New haven america » Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:55 pm
Thermodolia wrote:Cekoviu wrote:The kid specifically said they're a girl, according to the only account of the situation available. Why the fuck can't people read??
Ya and I’m not buying the idea that a four year old has any idea what they are. This is the same woman who claimed that her two year old asked where the girl clothes are. I don’t buy it.
Ask the kid at 10 when they have a better understanding of what a girl is and not at four where they have no fucking clue what a girl or a boy are.
by Fahran » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:33 pm
Grenartia wrote:It isn't simply having accepting parents and doctors that's a factor. Its the social environment as a whole. I.E., other family members, teachers, classmates, school administrators, etc. Even the general social attitude regarding transgender people as a whole is at play here.
by True Refuge » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:54 pm
New haven america wrote:Thermodolia wrote:Ya and I’m not buying the idea that a four year old has any idea what they are. This is the same woman who claimed that her two year old asked where the girl clothes are. I don’t buy it.
Ask the kid at 10 when they have a better understanding of what a girl is and not at four where they have no fucking clue what a girl or a boy are.
I knew I was a guy at 4, as did almost every other male I knew.
Did you not?
"One does not need to be surprised then, when 26 years later the outrageous slogan is repeated, which we Marxists burned all bridges with: to “pick up” the banner of the bourgeoisie. - International Communist Party, Dialogue with Stalin.
by New haven america » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:10 pm
True Refuge wrote:
It’s also completely ridiculous to think the ideal solution is anything other than letting the child decide for themselves as they age and explore their identity.
Like, what exactly is wrong with support without manipulation for a child’s wishes?
by Neutraligon » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:52 pm
True Refuge wrote:
It’s also completely ridiculous to think the ideal solution is anything other than letting the child decide for themselves as they age and explore their identity.
Like, what exactly is wrong with support without manipulation for a child’s wishes?
by Luminesa » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:57 pm
True Refuge wrote:Hediacrana wrote:Nice demonstration of unreflective confirmation bias there.
Honestly the greatest travesty of mass commercial media has been the damage they’ve done to the public’s understanding of science. That understanding is so garbage now that it seems like the average person has no clue how evidence-based medicine works.
Every time someone looks at a single scientific paper and goes “haha X is 110% true get owned by science” I die a little inside.
by Fahran » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:14 pm
Neutraligon wrote:True Refuge wrote:It’s also completely ridiculous to think the ideal solution is anything other than letting the child decide for themselves as they age and explore their identity.
Like, what exactly is wrong with support without manipulation for a child’s wishes?
I just don't get why there is boy and girl clothing, instead of just...clothing. I mean who cares if my kid wants to go to school in a dress, or pants, or a kilt, have at it. If they want their nickname to be something completely unrelated to their legal name, what is the problem? I honestly do not get it.
by Auzkhia » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:53 pm
Neutraligon wrote:True Refuge wrote:It’s also completely ridiculous to think the ideal solution is anything other than letting the child decide for themselves as they age and explore their identity.
Like, what exactly is wrong with support without manipulation for a child’s wishes?
I just don't get why there is boy and girl clothing, instead of just...clothing. I mean who cares if my kid wants to go to school in a dress, or pants, or a kilt, have at it. If they want their nickname to be something completely unrelated to their legal name, what is the problem? I honestly do not get it.
by The Rich Port » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:18 am
Neutraligon wrote:True Refuge wrote:It’s also completely ridiculous to think the ideal solution is anything other than letting the child decide for themselves as they age and explore their identity.
Like, what exactly is wrong with support without manipulation for a child’s wishes?
I just don't get why there is boy and girl clothing, instead of just...clothing. I mean who cares if my kid wants to go to school in a dress, or pants, or a kilt, have at it. If they want their nickname to be something completely unrelated to their legal name, what is the problem? I honestly do not get it.
by Fahran » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:21 am
Auzkhia wrote:Neutraligon wrote:I just don't get why there is boy and girl clothing, instead of just...clothing. I mean who cares if my kid wants to go to school in a dress, or pants, or a kilt, have at it. If they want their nickname to be something completely unrelated to their legal name, what is the problem? I honestly do not get it.
Children's clothing were neutral until a certain age, but then clothing companies literally invented gender to sell more clothes.
by Grenartia » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:25 am
Luminesa wrote:The New California Republic wrote:...wait, how does that have anything to do with the rest of the post?
Grenartia said that anyone who was anti-abortion should have their words taken with a grain of salt. I wouldn't have made the comment otherwise, since uhhhh they’ve been responding to me when my sig has ‘pro-life’ in red letters.
Luminesa wrote:You know...and this is just a thought...you’re not required to respond to every single line if you think it’s all “bull****”.
Also, there is definitely a problem with over-diagnosing certain conditions, though this is more dependent on the demographics of the individuals. African-American children get over-diagnosed with intellectual disorders, for example. I’m glad you got the help you needed, but the problem does exist outside of you. This is why research into such conditions is ongoing.
As for the part I missed...I genuinely did not miss it out of any sort of aimed malice. I think I skimmed too fast and missed it. It happens.
Honestly, the topic of gender with tiny children comes up so casually and inconsistently, that it usually does not require any sort of serious intervention to talk about the topic. I imagine you can break down almost any subject for a small child, but they also have to be willing to listen. Part of teaching isn’t just explaining material well, it’s also understanding each individual child where they are. At the same time, it’s also gauging how much the children will be interested in the topic. If even 8th graders can be immature about penis jokes, you can probably imagine how much listening a typical 4-year-old would do. From my experience, tiny children are mostly concerned about playing and loving their families.
On a slight tangent, given that Therm has experience with the topic of child abuse, I don’t think it’s fair to say he is making his remarks out of thin air or out of some sort of concern-trolling. I think it’s only fair to try and understand his place
instead of trying to throw him out for not “being enough of an ally”.
The New California Republic wrote:Luminesa wrote:Grenartia said that anyone who was anti-abortion should have their words taken with a grain of salt. I wouldn't have made the comment otherwise, since uhhhh they’ve been responding to me when my sig has ‘pro-life’ in red letters.
Yeah you probably should have put that quote in, as what you were referring to was not clear at all.
Grenartia wrote:Tarsonis wrote:Of course, and anyone whose against those clearly can’t be trusted. Remember kids, unless you support liberal causes, you’re unreliable.
More like, if you're anti-abortion, anti-marriage equality, and anti-transgender, then anything you say on those subjects should be taken with a massive grain of salt.
by Grenartia » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:41 am
True Refuge wrote:Hediacrana wrote:Nice demonstration of unreflective confirmation bias there.
Honestly the greatest travesty of mass commercial media has been the damage they’ve done to the public’s understanding of science. That understanding is so garbage now that it seems like the average person has no clue how evidence-based medicine works.
Every time someone looks at a single scientific paper and goes “haha X is 110% true get owned by science” I die a little inside.
Fahran wrote:Grenartia wrote:It isn't simply having accepting parents and doctors that's a factor. Its the social environment as a whole. I.E., other family members, teachers, classmates, school administrators, etc. Even the general social attitude regarding transgender people as a whole is at play here.
Controlling for subtreshhold patients seems to reduce the frequency of desistance significantly, as I stated. That by itself suggests that the phenomena isn't necessarily linked to social pressures exclusively but rather to the fact that the gender dysphoria experienced by many patients isn't so severe and enduring as to necessitate or even warrant transition.
by True Refuge » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:58 am
Grenartia wrote:
Part of me wouldn't at all be surprised if the absolutely abysmal state of science education in this country, combined with the effect you mention, is intentional, designed to engender a populace that is mostly incapable of genuine scientific inquiry. Which makes it far easier to sell dumb and useless bullshit (looking at you, "healing crystals"), scaremonger about various technologies (such as nuclear energy and vaccines), and generally keep the truth from people.
Grenartia wrote:Define "subthreshold patients", please.
Fahran wrote:Philjia wrote:Puberty blockers are a good compromise for children since the effects aren't permanent.
Giving puberty blockers to children can have quite a few deleterious effects, including bone mineralization and infertility. Really, I would steer clear of describing any child under the age of fourteen as trans in absolute terms given the high frequency of desistance. The safer presumption is that they're cis and experimenting with their gender or simply cis and taking an interest in activities and behaviors often associated with the opposite gender - because that's usually the case. Most kids who identify as trans-gender seem to grow out of it by the time they reach late adolescence - somewhere between 54% and 63%. We could also just decline from labeling the gendered behavior and identities of children under fourteen in absolute terms. If a child attains the age of fourteen, identifies as the opposite gender (or anything other than their assigned gender), and is not subthreshold, then you can still give them puberty blockers and begin the process of transitioning without much difficulty in most cases.
Source.
At the assessment in childhood, 60% of the girls met the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders criteria for GID, and 40% were subthreshold for the diagnosis.
"One does not need to be surprised then, when 26 years later the outrageous slogan is repeated, which we Marxists burned all bridges with: to “pick up” the banner of the bourgeoisie. - International Communist Party, Dialogue with Stalin.
by Grenartia » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:12 am
True Refuge wrote:Grenartia wrote:
Part of me wouldn't at all be surprised if the absolutely abysmal state of science education in this country, combined with the effect you mention, is intentional, designed to engender a populace that is mostly incapable of genuine scientific inquiry. Which makes it far easier to sell dumb and useless bullshit (looking at you, "healing crystals"), scaremonger about various technologies (such as nuclear energy and vaccines), and generally keep the truth from people.
Oh, definitely. The Murdoch press is a huge pusher of pseudoscience and shitty science reporting in at least the UK and Australia, and Murdoch's always had an agenda, as have the people who push for cuts to public education.Grenartia wrote:Define "subthreshold patients", please.
While you're waiting, Fahran first mentioned 'subthreshold' in this post:Fahran wrote:Giving puberty blockers to children can have quite a few deleterious effects, including bone mineralization and infertility. Really, I would steer clear of describing any child under the age of fourteen as trans in absolute terms given the high frequency of desistance. The safer presumption is that they're cis and experimenting with their gender or simply cis and taking an interest in activities and behaviors often associated with the opposite gender - because that's usually the case. Most kids who identify as trans-gender seem to grow out of it by the time they reach late adolescence - somewhere between 54% and 63%. We could also just decline from labeling the gendered behavior and identities of children under fourteen in absolute terms. If a child attains the age of fourteen, identifies as the opposite gender (or anything other than their assigned gender), and is not subthreshold, then you can still give them puberty blockers and begin the process of transitioning without much difficulty in most cases.
Source.
I'm guessing that the definition of "subthreshold" can be found in the paper the source refers to when it discusses subthreshold gender dysphoria, but that paper is paywalled.
The abstract, however, does say this:At the assessment in childhood, 60% of the girls met the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders criteria for GID, and 40% were subthreshold for the diagnosis.
Presumably, "subthreshold" would mean exhibiting some symptoms of gender dysphoria but not in an intensity or number that fits the DSM's criteria for GID.
However, that's just my guess. I can't be sure without seeing the methodology of the paper.
by True Refuge » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:18 am
Grenartia wrote:True Refuge wrote:
Oh, definitely. The Murdoch press is a huge pusher of pseudoscience and shitty science reporting in at least the UK and Australia, and Murdoch's always had an agenda, as have the people who push for cuts to public education.
While you're waiting, Fahran first mentioned 'subthreshold' in this post:
I'm guessing that the definition of "subthreshold" can be found in the paper the source refers to when it discusses subthreshold gender dysphoria, but that paper is paywalled.
The abstract, however, does say this:
Presumably, "subthreshold" would mean exhibiting some symptoms of gender dysphoria but not in an intensity or number that fits the DSM's criteria for GID.
However, that's just my guess. I can't be sure without seeing the methodology of the paper.
That's my guess as well, but I'd definitely like to see some confirmation of it, as well as what the cutoff specifically is. Where do they draw the line between GD and "subthreshold"? Because I don't want to argue against a strawman.
Diagnosis
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) provides for one overarching diagnosis of gender dysphoria with separate specific criteria for children and for adolescents and adults.
In adolescents and adults gender dysphoria diagnosis involves a difference between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, and significant distress or problems functioning. It lasts at least six months and is shown by at least two of the following:
A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
A strong desire to be of the other gender
A strong desire to be treated as the other gender
A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender
In children, gender dysphoria diagnosis involves at least six of the following and an associated significant distress or impairment in function, lasting at least six months.
A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender
A strong preference for wearing clothes typical of the opposite gender
A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
A strong rejection of toys, games and activities typical of one’s assigned gender
A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender
For children, cross-gender behaviors may start between ages 2 and 4, the same age at which most typically developing children begin showing gendered behaviors and interests. Gender atypical behavior is common among young children and may be part of normal development. Children who meet the criteria for gender dysphoria may or may not continue to experience it into adolescence and adulthood. Some research shows that children who had more intense symptoms and distress, who were more persistent, insistent and consistent in their cross-gender statements and behaviors, and who used more declarative statements (“I am a boy (or girl)” rather than “I want to be a boy (or girl)”) were more likely to become transgender adults. 3, 4
"One does not need to be surprised then, when 26 years later the outrageous slogan is repeated, which we Marxists burned all bridges with: to “pick up” the banner of the bourgeoisie. - International Communist Party, Dialogue with Stalin.
by Grenartia » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:20 am
True Refuge wrote:Grenartia wrote:
That's my guess as well, but I'd definitely like to see some confirmation of it, as well as what the cutoff specifically is. Where do they draw the line between GD and "subthreshold"? Because I don't want to argue against a strawman.
This website lists the DSM criteria as follows:Diagnosis
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) provides for one overarching diagnosis of gender dysphoria with separate specific criteria for children and for adolescents and adults.
In adolescents and adults gender dysphoria diagnosis involves a difference between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, and significant distress or problems functioning. It lasts at least six months and is shown by at least two of the following:
A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics
A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
A strong desire to be of the other gender
A strong desire to be treated as the other gender
A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender
In children, gender dysphoria diagnosis involves at least six of the following and an associated significant distress or impairment in function, lasting at least six months.
A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender
A strong preference for wearing clothes typical of the opposite gender
A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
A strong rejection of toys, games and activities typical of one’s assigned gender
A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender
For children, cross-gender behaviors may start between ages 2 and 4, the same age at which most typically developing children begin showing gendered behaviors and interests. Gender atypical behavior is common among young children and may be part of normal development. Children who meet the criteria for gender dysphoria may or may not continue to experience it into adolescence and adulthood. Some research shows that children who had more intense symptoms and distress, who were more persistent, insistent and consistent in their cross-gender statements and behaviors, and who used more declarative statements (“I am a boy (or girl)” rather than “I want to be a boy (or girl)”) were more likely to become transgender adults. 3, 4
I'm guessing (again, can't be sure of Fahran's perspective) that subthreshold applies to feelings and symptoms of gender dysphoria that do not collectively meet the criteria set out there.
by True Refuge » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:21 am
Grenartia wrote:True Refuge wrote:
This website lists the DSM criteria as follows:
I'm guessing (again, can't be sure of Fahran's perspective) that subthreshold applies to feelings and symptoms of gender dysphoria that do not collectively meet the criteria set out there.
Right, but that could mean any number of things.
"One does not need to be surprised then, when 26 years later the outrageous slogan is repeated, which we Marxists burned all bridges with: to “pick up” the banner of the bourgeoisie. - International Communist Party, Dialogue with Stalin.
by Grenartia » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:27 am
by True Refuge » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:33 am
"One does not need to be surprised then, when 26 years later the outrageous slogan is repeated, which we Marxists burned all bridges with: to “pick up” the banner of the bourgeoisie. - International Communist Party, Dialogue with Stalin.
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