New Civilizations ( OOC, Always Open, Reboot )

[Kelmet]

Considering communication technology is roughly equivalent to that of the 18th century already (horse, ship, letters, organized delivery, etc), I'm gonna have to give that logic a hard no. It's not like villages are completely cut off from the going ons of the state. There's just a delay based on distance from the source. Nothing a robust republic couldn't handle.

I was thinking more along the lines of infrastructure. Travel is a lot slower without roads and navigable waterways - which are exceedingly rare throughout the much the world, Western Hibernia for example

And you have to consider, that not everyone has an abundance of horses or ships. Hibernia just started importing tamed horses only a few years ago after all - certainly not making them common.

The Imperium, being a river empire, circumvents this through their geography, and i've made a point to construct roads to every settlement under the service. But even still, without the tradition of meritocracy being stronger than that of nepotism and tribalism, all federalism quickly devolves into feudalism.

Darn, I was hoping to meet another author.

[Kelmet]

Nice post Ralnis

[Joohan]

I was thinking more along the lines of infrastructure. Travel is a lot slower without roads and navigable waterways - which are exceedingly rare throughout the much the world, Western Hibernia for example

And you have to consider, that not everyone has an abundance of horses or ships. Hibernia just started importing tamed horses only a few years ago after all - certainly not making them common.

The Imperium, being a river empire, circumvents this through their geography, and i've made a point to construct roads to every settlement under the service. But even still, without the tradition of meritocracy being stronger than that of nepotism and tribalism, all federalism quickly devolves into feudalism.

Darn, I was hoping to meet another author.

You still might meet Issac, assuming things go as planned.

[Ralnis]

Next post will be about the Dilmun Shadow War. Hope to be more active and try to do some sort of War of Assassins-style idea on the Dilmun.

Nice post Ralnis

In what way? Just to try and keep things good for the next post.

[Bortslovakia]

Considering communication technology is roughly equivalent to that of the 18th century already (horse, ship, letters, organized delivery, etc), I'm gonna have to give that logic a hard no. It's not like villages are completely cut off from the going ons of the state. There's just a delay based on distance from the source. Nothing a robust republic couldn't handle.

I was thinking more along the lines of infrastructure. Travel is a lot slower without roads and navigable waterways - which are exceedingly rare throughout the much the world, Western Hibernia for example

And you have to consider, that not everyone has an abundance of horses or ships. Hibernia just started importing tamed horses only a few years ago after all - certainly not making them common.

The Imperium, being a river empire, circumvents this through their geography, and i've made a point to construct roads to every settlement under the service. But even still, without the tradition of meritocracy being stronger than that of nepotism and tribalism, all federalism quickly devolves into feudalism.

...We have roads. Plenty of them. I've mentioned them several times. The west is rural because there's no incentive to live there. Not because there's no means of transportation across land.

Plus Ireland really isn't that large. An Inca style runner system would be incredibly effective. The office of mayor is just step one in undoing tribal authority.

Why should Pat surrender his position? In the long term, the title of monarch will be primarily ceremonial. His job will simply be to keep the republic healthy by denouncing demagogues, and preventing backsliding. Try winning an election on an authoritarian platform when the immortal god king calls you a moron.

Clara and I are both staunch republicans, soooo...

Down with unelected monarchies!

I'm looking at a Commonwealth held together by sheer virtue of others being too afraid to challenge the majority(or vocal minority perhaps) in the near future.

Isn't that ultimately what holds any social order together? Imagine if people stopped being afraid of public authority (like, say, the police) in any RL modern democracy. Society would instantly collapse.

Constructing a social contract that everyone benefits from is an academic exercise in theoretical utopia. In the end society depends on people being coerced into going with a decision they might not necessarily like, and that's true for democracies as well as autocracies.

The CPS deathcorps don't bolster my confidence either.

Good. It isn't meant to. The CPS is the shield of the Commonwealth, and if those who would swing a sword against it are not filled with confidence, then they're serving their purpose well.

Pat needed to centralize in order to lay the groundwork for true democracy after he died. Becoming king was just step one. The other alternative was that bastardization of republicanism known as the Commonwealth

And I'm more talking about oppression of ethnic groups, religions, and rational ideologies. There's a difference between arresting a murderer, and arresting a member of the press for being anti government.

As for the CPS, IC Pat would just pity the people of Scandinavia. I doubt anyone outside the Commonwealth actually fears them. Thugs with badges policing for "undesirables" are nothing new for a society experiencing democratic backsliding.

[Kelmet]

Darn, I was hoping to meet another author.

You still might meet Issac, assuming things go as planned.

Perhaps

[Kelmet]

Next post will be about the Dilmun Shadow War. Hope to be more active and try to do some sort of War of Assassins-style idea on the Dilmun.

Nice post Ralnis

In what way? Just to try and keep things good for the next post.

It was a nice hearty post, well detailed and kept me drawn in from beginning to end.

[Joohan]

I was thinking more along the lines of infrastructure. Travel is a lot slower without roads and navigable waterways - which are exceedingly rare throughout the much the world, Western Hibernia for example

And you have to consider, that not everyone has an abundance of horses or ships. Hibernia just started importing tamed horses only a few years ago after all - certainly not making them common.

The Imperium, being a river empire, circumvents this through their geography, and i've made a point to construct roads to every settlement under the service. But even still, without the tradition of meritocracy being stronger than that of nepotism and tribalism, all federalism quickly devolves into feudalism.

...We have roads. Plenty of them. I've mentioned them several times. The west is rural because there's no incentive to live there. Not because there's no means of transportation across land.

Plus Ireland really isn't that large. An Inca style runner system would be incredibly effective. The office of mayor is just step one in undoing tribal authority.

You only really have roads in the east though - the west of the country is still pretty wild. Any settlement over that way is going to be pretty isolated from news coming from Dublin. Not every civilization can concentrate all it's people and production like that.

Whats the difference between mayor and chief? Are those two separate things in Hibernia? if so, how did you subvert the authority of these tribal kings?

[Plzen]

And I'm more talking about oppression of ethnic groups, religions, and rational ideologies. There's a difference between arresting a murderer, and arresting a member of the press for being anti government.

As for the CPS, IC Pat would just pity the people of Scandinavia. I doubt anyone outside the Commonwealth actually fears them. Thugs with badges policing for "undesirables" are nothing new for a society experiencing democratic backsliding.

I mean, Hibernia and the Commonwealth are in somewhat different geopolitical situations. It’s the Commonwealth that just fought a costly war against the Imperium, and it’s the Commonwealth that still shares a border with that expansive autocracy.

Since the Imperium is intent on seeding Europe with subversive agents determined to spread a doctrine hostile to the values of the Commonwealth, I want people around whose job it is to sniff them out. Counterespionage is nothing new for liberal-democratic regimes.

Clara will happily put crossbow bolts through however many Imperial spies she needs to in order to keep organised religion out of the country she helped create.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Ill be gone for today, got some work to do. When will the collab for Ft. Defiance be coming?

[Ralnis]

Next post will be about the Dilmun Shadow War. Hope to be more active and try to do some sort of War of Assassins-style idea on the Dilmun.



In what way? Just to try and keep things good for the next post.

It was a nice hearty post, well detailed and kept me drawn in from beginning to end.

Which part? I'm interested so that I can see if I can repeat that in the next post.

[G-Tech Corporation]

And I'm more talking about oppression of ethnic groups, religions, and rational ideologies. There's a difference between arresting a murderer, and arresting a member of the press for being anti government.

As for the CPS, IC Pat would just pity the people of Scandinavia. I doubt anyone outside the Commonwealth actually fears them. Thugs with badges policing for "undesirables" are nothing new for a society experiencing democratic backsliding.

I mean, Hibernia and the Commonwealth are in somewhat different geopolitical situations. It’s the Commonwealth that just fought a costly war against the Imperium, and it’s the Commonwealth that still shares a border with that expansive autocracy.

Since the Imperium is intent on seeding Europe with subversive agents determined to spread a doctrine hostile to the values of the Commonwealth, I want people around whose job it is to sniff them out. Counterespionage is nothing new for liberal-democratic regimes.

Clara will happily put crossbow bolts through however many Imperial spies she needs to in order to keep organised religion out of the country she helped create.

Luckily when you kill the innocent traders and artisans, you miss the actual spies

[G-Tech Corporation]

To the Imperium:

What I'd like to do is have the scholar follow a group of merchants from Aren in a circle back to Aren. Pay a fee have some protection and people he can recognize a tiny bit.

Sure. That makes enough sense. If they can pay their own way, they’ll be seen as eccentric, but more or less harmless.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Oh no. It is a far more interesting plan.

Though, fire plus petrochemicals plus wood and tar and rope and linen equals bonfire.

Add wet wood and snow to that equation and the results become much more disappointing.

Ah yes. That’s the reason ships at sea had no fear of fire at all; because their timbers were wet.

[Plzen]

Luckily when you kill the innocent traders and artisans, you miss the actual spies

They’re not “innocent” if they’re trying to proselytise in the Commonwealth. They’re criminals in violation of Commonwealth law and subversive agents spreading loyalty to foreign ideals.

Not to mention, the communitarian settlements of the Commonwealth, where everyone knows each other, are pretty hard to infiltrate. What, are you placing spies in neutral villages in the vague hope that they’ll be captured into the Commonwealth?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Luckily when you kill the innocent traders and artisans, you miss the actual spies

They’re not “innocent” if they’re trying to proselytise in the Commonwealth. They’re criminals in violation of Commonwealth law and subversive agents spreading loyalty to foreign ideals.

Not to mention, the communitarian settlements of the Commonwealth, where everyone knows each other, are pretty hard to infiltrate. What, are you placing spies in neutral villages in the vague hope that they’ll be captured into the Commonwealth?

Oh hardly. More recruiting locals with a high degree of ease of movement. A merchant goes to sea to trade tin in Brittany, he runs into one of the Emperor’s Eyes, he hates the state/the price is right, he comes home an intelligence asset.

Or migration. Men go to the Imperium to learn a trade, become disillusioned with the squalid squabbling of the Commonwealth, get marked out and recruited. They come home, get established, reports go south with contacts every so often.

Thus, the tendrils of the Imperium grow stronger.

[Plzen]

Oh hardly. More recruiting locals with a high degree of ease of movement. A merchant goes to sea to trade tin in Brittany, he runs into one of the Emperor’s Eyes, he hates the state/the price is right, he comes home an intelligence asset.

Or migration. Men go to the Imperium to learn a trade, become disillusioned with the squalid squabbling of the Commonwealth, get marked out and recruited. They come home, get established, reports go south with contacts every so often.

Thus, the tendrils of the Imperium grow stronger.

Hmm, yes, I could see those things happening. That would certainly be a viable way of getting eyes and ears in the Commonwealth.

Although the first time someone only pretends to agree and returns home to tell on what the Imperium is trying to do, CPS gets authorised another host of temporary emergency powers. I might do that in the Summer Regular Session, actually, alongside the other measures I intend to push through in that Session.

And as we all know, nothing is more permanent than “temporary” powers.

[Kelmet]

Luckily when you kill the innocent traders and artisans, you miss the actual spies

They’re not “innocent” if they’re trying to proselytise in the Commonwealth. They’re criminals in violation of Commonwealth law and subversive agents spreading loyalty to foreign ideals.

Not to mention, the communitarian settlements of the Commonwealth, where everyone knows each other, are pretty hard to infiltrate. What, are you placing spies in neutral villages in the vague hope that they’ll be captured into the Commonwealth?

Can the Commonwealth and the Imperium please be friends......

[Plzen]

Can the Commonwealth and the Imperium please be friends......

Viktor is an aggressive dictator who is sending out evangelists. What do you think?

[G-Tech Corporation]

They’re not “innocent” if they’re trying to proselytise in the Commonwealth. They’re criminals in violation of Commonwealth law and subversive agents spreading loyalty to foreign ideals.

Not to mention, the communitarian settlements of the Commonwealth, where everyone knows each other, are pretty hard to infiltrate. What, are you placing spies in neutral villages in the vague hope that they’ll be captured into the Commonwealth?

Can the Commonwealth and the Imperium please be friends......

We’re not the ones butchering civilians and burning villages

[Kelmet]

You both have more to gain then not

[Bortslovakia]

...We have roads. Plenty of them. I've mentioned them several times. The west is rural because there's no incentive to live there. Not because there's no means of transportation across land.

Plus Ireland really isn't that large. An Inca style runner system would be incredibly effective. The office of mayor is just step one in undoing tribal authority.

You only really have roads in the east though - the west of the country is still pretty wild. Any settlement over that way is going to be pretty isolated from news coming from Dublin. Not every civilization can concentrate all it's people and production like that.

Whats the difference between mayor and chief? Are those two separate things in Hibernia? if so, how did you subvert the authority of these tribal kings?

Except we don't. Going west at all necessitates at least some infrastructure. It may not be as developed as the east, but to say we have no roads whatsoever is ridiculous.

Mayors are elected by locals to serve as the town's bureaucratic representative to Hibernia at large. The only stipulations for running are A) 17 years or older (for new additions, this is enforced simply as whatever they consider the age of adulthood to be), and B) The candidate cannot be the existing local leadership(chief). Since the various tribal lords already "hold power" over their traditional stations, it's reasoned that they don't want to handle the minutia of organizing the levy and other league projects. Of course representatives are sent to help ease the transition, as newly elected Mayor Gruk the Hut-Builder doesn't know how to read or write yet.

In actuality the idea is to slowly relegate the chiefs to a ceremonial role. The Mayor is sold as handling all the technicalities while the local leadership benefits from League cooperation. Which is, to an extent, not false. Nothing's stopping a chief from using their newfound wealth to build a nice house on a hill, or if they're really ambitious, doing something productive like investing in new industries.

The official powers of the Mayor (who serves a two year term) include raising and organizing the levy, scheduling drills, allocating League resources, and taxation, though that power is incredibly limited already. When taken to the logical extreme, the Mayor governs the entire town. In practice, the town progresses at the natural rate it desires. A local chief could remain the primary factor in rule for twenty years. They could give up the majority of their power in six months. It all depends on the village itself.

See the primary issue with creating an election based system is that the moment you outright say "Fuck the chiefs, elected officials for all!" your expansion is done. It's incredibly difficult to convince local warlords to hand over their power peacefully when you outright tell them to abdicate. Thus a more organic progression is required. An added benefit is that by letting each village naturally come to the conclusion that egalitarian rule is beneficial for the individual, you develop a healthy democratic ethos without the pitfalls of just putting the institutions in place with no context given to the population.

tldr: Yes they're different positions. Power is subverted by essentially lying through omission in a way that doesn't really effect the living quality of the local leadership. We also have roads.

And I'm more talking about oppression of ethnic groups, religions, and rational ideologies. There's a difference between arresting a murderer, and arresting a member of the press for being anti government.

As for the CPS, IC Pat would just pity the people of Scandinavia. I doubt anyone outside the Commonwealth actually fears them. Thugs with badges policing for "undesirables" are nothing new for a society experiencing democratic backsliding.

I mean, Hibernia and the Commonwealth are in somewhat different geopolitical situations. It’s the Commonwealth that just fought a costly war against the Imperium, and it’s the Commonwealth that still shares a border with that expansive autocracy.

Since the Imperium is intent on seeding Europe with subversive agents determined to spread a doctrine hostile to the values of the Commonwealth, I want people around whose job it is to sniff them out. Counterespionage is nothing new for liberal-democratic regimes.

Clara will happily put crossbow bolts through however many Imperial spies she needs to in order to keep organised religion out of the country she helped create.

Fair enough. Our only experience with the Imperium has been sporadic contact, usually on relatively neutral terms. Though a Jesus loving blacksmith is hardly a subversive agent.

Frankly, Pat probably dislikes organized religion just as much as Clara. The big difference is he doesn't seem himself in a position to judge the practice in totality. He'll happily argue with individuals about why X is not proof of God. But executing someone over it? There's just no real reason to be that extreme. The mindset of the average Hibernian is similar. They may be dubious about a priest's claims, but why lynch the man over it?

They’re not “innocent” if they’re trying to proselytise in the Commonwealth. They’re criminals in violation of Commonwealth law and subversive agents spreading loyalty to foreign ideals.

Not to mention, the communitarian settlements of the Commonwealth, where everyone knows each other, are pretty hard to infiltrate. What, are you placing spies in neutral villages in the vague hope that they’ll be captured into the Commonwealth?

Oh hardly. More recruiting locals with a high degree of ease of movement. A merchant goes to sea to trade tin in Brittany, he runs into one of the Emperor’s Eyes, he hates the state/the price is right, he comes home an intelligence asset.

Or migration. Men go to the Imperium to learn a trade, become disillusioned with the squalid squabbling of the Commonwealth, get marked out and recruited. They come home, get established, reports go south with contacts every so often.

Thus, the tendrils of the Imperium grow stronger.

Glad to see Brittany is getting some love

We should really work out the situation there, since a while back we discussed first contact between Imperial merchants, and Irish expeditionaries happening around Brest.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Can the Commonwealth and the Imperium please be friends......

Viktor is an aggressive dictator who is sending out evangelists. What do you think?

I picture your Commitee doing Japans tactics on anti christianity.

[Kelmet]

Can the Commonwealth and the Imperium please be friends......

Viktor is an aggressive dictator who is sending out evangelists. What do you think?

I think there have been much stranger friends.

[Plzen]

I picture your Commitee doing Japans tactics on anti christianity.

Probably not. We’d move to more drastic measures, certainly, but not to the degree of killing citizens just for their belief.

A prohibition on parents encouraging underaged children into activities of a spiritual nature that are not native to Commonwealth culture would, given time, stamp out religion almost as well. Adults are rather more difficult to convert into a faith.

The rights of the Norse child must include, after all, the right not to have a foreign religion foisted on him/her when the child is still vulnerable and impressionable. Same reason we don’t allow children to join the Guards, more or less.

In actuality the idea is to slowly relegate the chiefs to a ceremonial role. The Mayor is sold as handling all the technicalities while the local leadership benefits from League cooperation. Which is, to an extent, not false. Nothing's stopping a chief from using their newfound wealth to build a nice house on a hill, or if they're really ambitious, doing something productive like investing in new industries.

In the long run I can see this leading to a Westminster-style bicameral legislature with a ceremonial House of Lords.

Fair enough. Our only experience with the Imperium has been sporadic contact, usually on relatively neutral terms. Though a Jesus loving blacksmith is hardly a subversive agent.

I mean, “subversive agent” is as good a term as any for people who seek to undermine the foundational principles of the Commonwealth.

Frankly, Pat probably dislikes organized religion just as much as Clara. The big difference is he doesn't seem himself in a position to judge the practice in totality. He'll happily argue with individuals about why X is not proof of God. But executing someone over it? There's just no real reason to be that extreme. The mindset of the average Hibernian is similar. They may be dubious about a priest's claims, but why lynch the man over it?

That comes down to the Paradox of Tolerance again, doesn’t it. Should liberal societies tolerate, in the name of liberalism, ideologies that are inherently opposed to that same liberal framework of society? Should freedom let its own principles leave it defenceless?

IRL I lean towards “yes, we absolutely should because that’s what ‘liberty’ means,” but after 20 years in this Brave New World, Clara is a far more cynical person than I am IRL and the Norse public is both angry and terrified.