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by Senkaku » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:13 am
by Dumb Ideologies » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:25 am
by Forsher » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:59 am
by Forsher » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:01 am
-Ocelot- wrote:There is nothing imperial about the US. They haven't annexed other nations by force (like Russia), doesn't want to annex everyone around them (like China) and doesn't dictate what other nations do or don't.
For one, I'd like see a thread about Russian or Chinese imperialism, which are very much real, instead of the endless bashing on the US.
by Forsher » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:11 am
The JELLEAIN Republic wrote:Perhaps it would be most effective of everyone could agree on a singular definition of empire. How about buy looking at what we know are empires and seeing what makes them so. Like England.
Imperialism is the absorption of one polity into the sphere of influence of a
state in such a way that the absorbed polity is not treated as part of that
state; it is an asymmetrical relationship.3 Imperialism has three main
aspects.
The first is the expression of imperialism, how a power brings a
polity into its sphere and to what extent. The forcing open of Chinese
markets to European enterprise in the First Opium War represents the use
of military force to create an informal relationship whereas military power
was also used to create formal empires in much of Africa a few decades
later.
The second relates to the reasons for and ideologies influencing imperialism. For much of the 1800s a belief in free trade meant that formal
empires were seen as less preferable than one-sided economic
relationships. 4 Additionally, developing racial ideas in Europe began to add
a new dimension to why imperialism happened; this is Ferguson’s cultural
exportation. 5
The third aspect is the context in which imperialism develops:
the imperial powers, their empires and how both of those relate. Leo
Blanken notes that most nineteenth century imperial powers typically
avoided conflict among themselves, a departure from the days of the
Seven Years War.
References:3 Leo J. Blanken, Rational empires : institutional incentives and imperial expansion, Chicago, 2012, pp. 29-30.
4 Jürgen Osterhammel, and Niels P. Peterson, Globalization : a short history, translated Dona Geyer, Princeton,
2005, p.70.
5 Niall Ferguson, Empire: How Britain Made the Modern World, Victoria, 2008, p.119.
6 Blanken, p. 7.
by Exxosia » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:25 am
by Karma Sandiego Garcia » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:29 am
Samudera Darussalam wrote:Sundiata wrote:Yes, the United States is an empire that has a moral obligation to expand its influence globally.
No, thank you. While it can be argued that the States' influence is better than the Russian or Chinese ones, we would prefer you to not intrude our business.
As of OP's post itself.....well, I wouldn't say it as an empire, since my definition of an empire is the one which is led by an emperor/other monarch with large territories.
I guess the term hegemon might be close enough.
Exxosia wrote:The US is a nation with imperialist delusions and efforts, but lacks the physical, functional elements to be an actual empire. If it actually stayed, fully subjugated, and absorbed the territories it harasses, it could be an empire. Last I checked, all those countries it has trounced around in aren't states in the union or even territories.
by The East Marches II » Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:38 am
by -Ocelot- » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:22 am
Sundiata wrote:The U.S expanding its territory and influence is ultimately right and just, not only for its own sake, but for the world's.-Ocelot- wrote:There is nothing imperial about the US. They haven't annexed other nations by force (like Russia), doesn't want to annex everyone around them (like China) and doesn't dictate what other nations do or don't.
For one, I'd like see a thread about Russian or Chinese imperialism, which are very much real, instead of the endless bashing on the US.
by Luxcentra » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:24 am
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by The Angel of Charity » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:07 pm
Exxosia wrote:The US is a nation with imperialist delusions and efforts, but lacks the physical, functional elements to be an actual empire. If it actually stayed, fully subjugated, and absorbed the territories it harasses, it could be an empire. Last I checked, all those countries it has trounced around in aren't states in the union or even territories.
by Farnhamia » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:14 pm
The Angel of Charity wrote:Exxosia wrote:The US is a nation with imperialist delusions and efforts, but lacks the physical, functional elements to be an actual empire. If it actually stayed, fully subjugated, and absorbed the territories it harasses, it could be an empire. Last I checked, all those countries it has trounced around in aren't states in the union or even territories.
That's the thing though, it has, multiple times, subjected foreign nations to its will. To name in succession the long list of native states, alliances, and empire that the United States has annexed is redundant. A few shall suffice, the Souix, the Commanche, The Virgin Islands, Hawaii, and the mexican state. We simply have fully absorbed those regions. In the span of a mere 200 years we surpassed Rome, China, and all former empires, disregarding the Russian empire and the Khanate. The only difference here is that we have fully absorbed them racially and politically. We have the Indian "reservations" or pseudo-vassal states, plus our protectorates, and Puerto Rico, annexed from Spain. We have always been an Empire, and always will, with both the good and bad that come with such a status.
Because of our vast holdings, we hold world hegemony. We have clenched the world in a peace that the Romans could only dream of. US naval might is unparalleled, and economically we surpass anything in the world by far. Our imperial status can only be compared to the Mongol hordes, a vast, reactional empire, holding complete hegemony.
by The Angel of Charity » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:47 pm
Farnhamia wrote:The Angel of Charity wrote:That's the thing though, it has, multiple times, subjected foreign nations to its will. To name in succession the long list of native states, alliances, and empire that the United States has annexed is redundant. A few shall suffice, the Souix, the Commanche, The Virgin Islands, Hawaii, and the mexican state. We simply have fully absorbed those regions. In the span of a mere 200 years we surpassed Rome, China, and all former empires, disregarding the Russian empire and the Khanate. The only difference here is that we have fully absorbed them racially and politically. We have the Indian "reservations" or pseudo-vassal states, plus our protectorates, and Puerto Rico, annexed from Spain. We have always been an Empire, and always will, with both the good and bad that come with such a status.
Because of our vast holdings, we hold world hegemony. We have clenched the world in a peace that the Romans could only dream of. US naval might is unparalleled, and economically we surpass anything in the world by far. Our imperial status can only be compared to the Mongol hordes, a vast, reactional empire, holding complete hegemony.
The Western idea of a nation would have been foreign to the Sioux and the Commanche. The US Virgin Islands were purchased from Denmark in 1917, not conquered. The US acquired Puerto Rico in the peace treaty that ended the Spanish-American War. Hawaii was a bit of an embarrassment, I will admit. We did not absorb "the mexican state," we acquired the northern parts of Mexico as part of a peace treaty. The more you know ...
by Farnhamia » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:09 pm
The Angel of Charity wrote:Farnhamia wrote:The Western idea of a nation would have been foreign to the Sioux and the Commanche. The US Virgin Islands were purchased from Denmark in 1917, not conquered. The US acquired Puerto Rico in the peace treaty that ended the Spanish-American War. Hawaii was a bit of an embarrassment, I will admit. We did not absorb "the mexican state," we acquired the northern parts of Mexico as part of a peace treaty. The more you know ...
Oh? I didn't know that because they don't seem like European states, they aren't considered them? Unlike the typical nomadic pictures, Indians had advanced agriculture, towns, and political blocks. The Souix and commanche could be compared to Mongolia, nomadic, for certain, but not "stateless" in any sense of the word. To refer to them as stateless is both degrading and ignorant of actual history. Even so, would you make the case that the European colonies were not imperial, because the inhabitants were not "states?"
Ah yes, a peace treaty that was the result of a United States war of aggression that reached as far as Mexico city. Tell me what about that was not Imperial? I have no shame in our imperial roots, I feel they are an honorable part of our history, as they are for every culture across the world. Ignoring this fact or trying to skirt around it seems foreign to me though.
by The Angel of Charity » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:28 pm
Farnhamia wrote:The Angel of Charity wrote:Oh? I didn't know that because they don't seem like European states, they aren't considered them? Unlike the typical nomadic pictures, Indians had advanced agriculture, towns, and political blocks. The Souix and commanche could be compared to Mongolia, nomadic, for certain, but not "stateless" in any sense of the word. To refer to them as stateless is both degrading and ignorant of actual history. Even so, would you make the case that the European colonies were not imperial, because the inhabitants were not "states?"
Ah yes, a peace treaty that was the result of a United States war of aggression that reached as far as Mexico city. Tell me what about that was not Imperial? I have no shame in our imperial roots, I feel they are an honorable part of our history, as they are for every culture across the world. Ignoring this fact or trying to skirt around it seems foreign to me though.
Did the Sioux and Comanche have flags? No? Exactly. I'm not defending the treatment the Native Americans received, but they were not states in the traditional definition of the word. The European colonists, on the other hand, were citizens of the organized European states.
As for the Mexican War, it wasn't very popular in the US at the time and its origins are complicated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican–American_War). Mexico had lost control of its northern territories after independence, laying itself open to raids by the Comanches and others. At the same time, American colonists moved into Texas, filling the vacuum that the decline of Mexican control caused. This is all fodder for another thread, though.
by Senkaku » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:43 pm
Farnhamia wrote:The Angel of Charity wrote:That's the thing though, it has, multiple times, subjected foreign nations to its will. To name in succession the long list of native states, alliances, and empire that the United States has annexed is redundant. A few shall suffice, the Souix, the Commanche, The Virgin Islands, Hawaii, and the mexican state. We simply have fully absorbed those regions. In the span of a mere 200 years we surpassed Rome, China, and all former empires, disregarding the Russian empire and the Khanate. The only difference here is that we have fully absorbed them racially and politically. We have the Indian "reservations" or pseudo-vassal states, plus our protectorates, and Puerto Rico, annexed from Spain. We have always been an Empire, and always will, with both the good and bad that come with such a status.
Because of our vast holdings, we hold world hegemony. We have clenched the world in a peace that the Romans could only dream of. US naval might is unparalleled, and economically we surpass anything in the world by far. Our imperial status can only be compared to the Mongol hordes, a vast, reactional empire, holding complete hegemony.
The Western idea of a nation would have been foreign to the Sioux and the Commanche.
The US Virgin Islands were purchased from Denmark in 1917, not conquered.
The US acquired Puerto Rico in the peace treaty that ended the Spanish-American War.
Hawaii was a bit of an embarrassment, I will admit.
We did not absorb "the mexican state," we acquired the northern parts of Mexico as part of a peace treaty. The more you know ...
Farnhamia wrote:The Angel of Charity wrote:Oh? I didn't know that because they don't seem like European states, they aren't considered them? Unlike the typical nomadic pictures, Indians had advanced agriculture, towns, and political blocks. The Souix and commanche could be compared to Mongolia, nomadic, for certain, but not "stateless" in any sense of the word. To refer to them as stateless is both degrading and ignorant of actual history. Even so, would you make the case that the European colonies were not imperial, because the inhabitants were not "states?"
Ah yes, a peace treaty that was the result of a United States war of aggression that reached as far as Mexico city. Tell me what about that was not Imperial? I have no shame in our imperial roots, I feel they are an honorable part of our history, as they are for every culture across the world. Ignoring this fact or trying to skirt around it seems foreign to me though.
Did the Sioux and Comanche have flags? No? Exactly. I'm not defending the treatment the Native Americans received, but they were not states in the traditional definition of the word. The European colonists, on the other hand, were citizens of the organized European states.
As for the Mexican War, it wasn't very popular in the US at the time and its origins are complicated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican–American_War).
Mexico had lost control of its northern territories after independence, laying itself open to raids by the Comanches and others.
At the same time, American colonists moved into Texas, filling the vacuum that the decline of Mexican control caused.
by Senkaku » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:45 pm
Exxosia wrote:The US is a nation with imperialist delusions and efforts, but lacks the physical, functional elements to be an actual empire. If it actually stayed, fully subjugated, and absorbed the territories it harasses, it could be an empire. Last I checked, all those countries it has trounced around in aren't states in the union or even territories.
by The East Marches II » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:52 pm
Senkaku wrote:Exxosia wrote:The US is a nation with imperialist delusions and efforts, but lacks the physical, functional elements to be an actual empire. If it actually stayed, fully subjugated, and absorbed the territories it harasses, it could be an empire. Last I checked, all those countries it has trounced around in aren't states in the union or even territories.
You don't have to directly rule a territory yourself to consider it part of your empire-- look at Britain in Northern Nigeria or the Achaemenid Empire in Anatolia, or the United States in Cuba and Latin America/the Caribbean throughout much of the 19th and 20th centuries. I don't think anyone's going to suggest that the British Empire didn't rule Nigeria, or that the Persians didn't rule Anatolia, just because they did so indirectly and afforded their subjects considerable autonomy in many areas.
by Senkaku » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:01 pm
The East Marches II wrote:Senkaku wrote:You don't have to directly rule a territory yourself to consider it part of your empire-- look at Britain in Northern Nigeria or the Achaemenid Empire in Anatolia, or the United States in Cuba and Latin America/the Caribbean throughout much of the 19th and 20th centuries. I don't think anyone's going to suggest that the British Empire didn't rule Nigeria, or that the Persians didn't rule Anatolia, just because they did so indirectly and afforded their subjects considerable autonomy in many areas.
Is that a challenge? I'll suggest it
by The East Marches II » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:03 pm
by Senkaku » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:05 pm
by The East Marches II » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:10 pm
by Greed and Death » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:19 pm
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