Wrong again.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=473245&p=36316225#p36316225
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by Chernoslavia » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:16 am
by Nea Byzantia » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:18 am
by Vistulange » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:20 am
by Gormwood » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:23 am
Chernoslavia wrote:Gormwood wrote:
Whataboutism of the Kurds in response to someone stating genocide is bad makes it look that way.
Wrong again.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=473245&p=36316225#p36316225
Chernoslavia wrote:Torrocca wrote:
Because I don't want a genocide to happen, that obviously means that I think Kurds are naturally better than Turks. What an absolute bullshit line of thinking. Not that I'd expect anything better, considering you're more concerned with bitching about "virtue signaling" than this atrocious invasion of Northern Syria at the hands of Erdogan's regime.
Yeah cuz it's not like the Kurds haven't been committing crimes against Turkish civies right?
by United Muscovite Nations » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:25 am
Vistulange wrote:Look, guys, I get that the whole "Sultan Erdoğan" circlejerk is fun, Turkey should be kicked from NATO circlejerk is fun, it's all really fun and exciting to talk about while branding anybody who dares have the slightest different opinion from you to be shills and "listening to Turkish propaganda", but let's, for God's sake, get a few facts in and then the circlejerk can carry on as though nothing had happened.
"Turkey should be kicked from NATO".
Guys, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, formed by the North Atlantic Treaty - linked here - does not have an expulsion mechanism. Full stop. It only provides provisions for a member state to leave on its own accord with Article 13. Now, it is without a doubt that some people will either say or think "but Vistulange, you Turko-Erdoğan shill, we can just bypass Turkey, have a fait accompli and just not include Turkey in NATO's proceedings, you're just being pedantic". Well, yeah, that's possible, the long-term ramifications of doing so notwithstanding, but that's not really "kicking Turkey from NATO", is it? It's "bypassing Turkey when NATO affairs are involved". Different concepts, and if that's pedantry, so be it.
"Sultan Erdoğan [insert whatever here]".
The memery of the whole thing aside, I honestly can't take people who post in this manner in a non-humorous fashion seriously. It shows a serious lack of care and/or knowledge about Turkish and Ottoman political history, and a serious lack of knowledge regarding current Turkish politics. If you genuinely think that Erdoğan has some sort of iron hand over everything in the country akin to a genuine classical-era Ottoman sultan, I honestly can't help you. I can't force you to follow Turkish media and politics in depth. I can't teach you Turkish, either, as much as I'd love to.
I mean, I enjoy the meme of Erdoğan photoshopped in place of Selim III myself, but when that becomes an unironic arguing point, it gets a little cringey.
"Erdoğan kills Kurds, because it's his ideology".
See above. Oddly enough, nobody was talking "Erdoğan loves Kurds, because it's his ideology" back in 2014-2015 - when I was also active on this board, albeit as a far less mature person - when he was a conservative politican who was also very cosmopolitan along Muslim lines. I could go on to say that Erdoğan in fact isn't a "fundamentalist Islamist", but instead say that he's a very realist, pragmatic politician who simply changes alliances in relation to domestic politics as he deems necessary, but that's not really the point here, is it now? I linked two articles which were written relatively recently regarding the Kurdish issue in Turkey, and I am willing to bet that not even half of the people who are posting on this thread about Kurds, what they want, how they feel, etc. have even bothered to read them, or to ask me how they can access the articles I've linked, because that doesn't fit the easy way of slinging mud.
So really, what is the debate on this thread right now?
by Nea Byzantia » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:25 am
Vistulange wrote:Look, guys, I get that the whole "Sultan Erdoğan" circlejerk is fun, Turkey should be kicked from NATO circlejerk is fun, it's all really fun and exciting to talk about while branding anybody who dares have the slightest different opinion from you to be shills and "listening to Turkish propaganda", but let's, for God's sake, get a few facts in and then the circlejerk can carry on as though nothing had happened.
"Turkey should be kicked from NATO".
Guys, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, formed by the North Atlantic Treaty - linked here - does not have an expulsion mechanism. Full stop. It only provides provisions for a member state to leave on its own accord with Article 13. Now, it is without a doubt that some people will either say or think "but Vistulange, you Turko-Erdoğan shill, we can just bypass Turkey, have a fait accompli and just not include Turkey in NATO's proceedings, you're just being pedantic". Well, yeah, that's possible, the long-term ramifications of doing so notwithstanding, but that's not really "kicking Turkey from NATO", is it? It's "bypassing Turkey when NATO affairs are involved". Different concepts, and if that's pedantry, so be it.
"Sultan Erdoğan [insert whatever here]".
The memery of the whole thing aside, I honestly can't take people who post in this manner in a non-humorous fashion seriously. It shows a serious lack of care and/or knowledge about Turkish and Ottoman political history, and a serious lack of knowledge regarding current Turkish politics. If you genuinely think that Erdoğan has some sort of iron hand over everything in the country akin to a genuine classical-era Ottoman sultan, I honestly can't help you. I can't force you to follow Turkish media and politics in depth. I can't teach you Turkish, either, as much as I'd love to.
I mean, I enjoy the meme of Erdoğan photoshopped in place of Selim III myself, but when that becomes an unironic arguing point, it gets a little cringey.
"Erdoğan kills Kurds, because it's his ideology".
See above. Oddly enough, nobody was talking "Erdoğan loves Kurds, because it's his ideology" back in 2014-2015 - when I was also active on this board, albeit as a far less mature person - when he was a conservative politican who was also very cosmopolitan along Muslim lines. I could go on to say that Erdoğan in fact isn't a "fundamentalist Islamist", but instead say that he's a very realist, pragmatic politician who simply changes alliances in relation to domestic politics as he deems necessary, but that's not really the point here, is it now? I linked two articles which were written relatively recently regarding the Kurdish issue in Turkey, and I am willing to bet that not even half of the people who are posting on this thread about Kurds, what they want, how they feel, etc. have even bothered to read them, or to ask me how they can access the articles I've linked, because that doesn't fit the easy way of slinging mud.
So really, what is the debate on this thread right now?
by Chernoslavia » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:25 am
by Torrocca » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:31 am
Chernoslavia wrote:Gormwood wrote:Oh look, you conveniently omit an important sentence to spin it as him claiming the Kurds are superior to the Turks.
Imagine being so desperate that you continue to flat out lie about what I'm saying even after being proven wrong multiple times already. Quit your bullshit.
by Chernoslavia » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:32 am
Chernoslavia wrote:Gormwood wrote:Oh look, you conveniently omit an important sentence to spin it as him claiming the Kurds are superior to the Turks.
Imagine being so desperate that you continue to flat out lie about what I'm saying even after being proven wrong multiple times already. Quit your bullshit.
by Gormwood » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:36 am
Chernoslavia wrote:Gormwood wrote:Oh look, you conveniently omit an important sentence to spin it as him claiming the Kurds are superior to the Turks.
Imagine being so desperate that you continue to flat out lie about what I'm saying even after being proven wrong multiple times already. Quit your bullshit.
Torrocca wrote:Because I don't want a genocide to happen, that obviously means that I think Kurds are naturally better than Turks.
Torrocca wrote:What an absolute bullshit line of thinking.
by Torrocca » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:39 am
by Chernoslavia » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:45 am
Gormwood wrote:Chernoslavia wrote:
Imagine being so desperate that you continue to flat out lie about what I'm saying even after being proven wrong multiple times already. Quit your bullshit.
Since you are apparently failing to register inconvenient parts...
This is what you're pretending to respond to:Torrocca wrote:Because I don't want a genocide to happen, that obviously means that I think Kurds are naturally better than Turks.
And this is the crucial sentence that you block out and which changes the context of the strawman you claim was really there:Torrocca wrote:What an absolute bullshit line of thinking.
You're the one reeking of desperation here. :^]
by United Muscovite Nations » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:47 am
Torrocca wrote:Chernoslavia wrote:
So do you concede that you're racist against ethnic Turks?
We both know that you don't actually think that my sarcastic response to your inane suggestion that I supposedly somehow think Kurds are superior to Turks was a racist jab against Turkish people. We both also know what you meant by blaming the crimes of the PKK in particular on the Kurds in general. Quit it with this bullshit.
by Chernoslavia » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:48 am
Torrocca wrote:Chernoslavia wrote:
So do you concede that you're racist against ethnic Turks?
We both know that you don't actually think that my sarcastic response to your inane suggestion that I supposedly somehow think Kurds are superior to Turks was a racist jab against Turkish people. We both also know what you meant by blaming the crimes of the PKK in particular on the Kurds in general. Quit it with this bullshit.
by Chernoslavia » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:50 am
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Torrocca wrote:
We both know that you don't actually think that my sarcastic response to your inane suggestion that I supposedly somehow think Kurds are superior to Turks was a racist jab against Turkish people. We both also know what you meant by blaming the crimes of the PKK in particular on the Kurds in general. Quit it with this bullshit.
The YPG is the Syrian branch of the PKK, as many have already sourced in the first few pages of this thread, and has been confirmed in the past by the US State Department. Turkey has a legitimate grievance.
by Torrocca » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:52 am
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Torrocca wrote:
We both know that you don't actually think that my sarcastic response to your inane suggestion that I supposedly somehow think Kurds are superior to Turks was a racist jab against Turkish people. We both also know what you meant by blaming the crimes of the PKK in particular on the Kurds in general. Quit it with this bullshit.
The YPG is the Syrian branch of the PKK, as many have already sourced in the first few pages of this thread, and has been confirmed in the past by the US State Department. Turkey has a legitimate grievance.
by Gormwood » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:53 am
Chernoslavia wrote:Gormwood wrote:Since you are apparently failing to register inconvenient parts...
This is what you're pretending to respond to:
And this is the crucial sentence that you block out and which changes the context of the strawman you claim was really there:
You're the one reeking of desperation here. :^]
I wasn't pretending, that's what I was responding to, but you decide to stick to your guns because you're mad that I proved you wrong. You're a liar and a bad one at that.
by Torrocca » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:56 am
Chernoslavia wrote:Torrocca wrote:
We both know that you don't actually think that my sarcastic response to your inane suggestion that I supposedly somehow think Kurds are superior to Turks was a racist jab against Turkish people. We both also know what you meant by blaming the crimes of the PKK in particular on the Kurds in general. Quit it with this bullshit.
Oh now you were just being sarcastic
Torrocca wrote:Chernoslavia wrote:
To Torrocca so long as they're Socialist, they're automatically better than the Turks, never mind the atrocities they committed themselves.
Because I don't want a genocide to happen, that obviously means that I think Kurds are naturally better than Turks. What an absolute bullshit line of thinking. Not that I'd expect anything better, considering you're more concerned with bitching about "virtue signaling" than this atrocious invasion of Northern Syria at the hands of Erdogan's regime.
by United Muscovite Nations » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:57 am
Torrocca wrote:United Muscovite Nations wrote:The YPG is the Syrian branch of the PKK, as many have already sourced in the first few pages of this thread, and has been confirmed in the past by the US State Department. Turkey has a legitimate grievance.
1) The YPG is the military arm of the PYD and only has some connections to the PKK; it isn't a branch of the PKK.
Furthermore, I don't really give much of a shit how the US State Department decides to designate a revolutionary group. 2) Besides that, the PKK and YPG alone still don't constitute the Kurds in general, even if they were actually the same organization and the YPG was equally responsible for the PKK's uprising and attacks in Turkey.
by Torrocca » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:00 am
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Torrocca wrote:
1) The YPG is the military arm of the PYD and only has some connections to the PKK; it isn't a branch of the PKK.
Furthermore, I don't really give much of a shit how the US State Department decides to designate a revolutionary group. 2) Besides that, the PKK and YPG alone still don't constitute the Kurds in general, even if they were actually the same organization and the YPG was equally responsible for the PKK's uprising and attacks in Turkey.
1) Every expert on the matter and even the YPG's own fighters disagree. In fact, about half of its forces are Turkish Kurds
2) Perhaps not, but the Turkish state certainly should be worried about a state propping up on its southern border that is linked to a group trying to start a civil war in its territory.
by Nakena » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:04 am
Torrocca wrote:The YPG is the military arm of the PYD and only has some connections to the PKK; it isn't a branch of the PKK.
Nakena wrote:Hmmm:Despite the tightened border, Kurds from Turkey remain well represented in the YPG, further underscoring the group’s links to the PKK. In an interview with the Wall Street Journal, Kurdish fighter Zind Ruken expanded on the PKK-YPG relationship. “Sometimes I’m a PKK, sometimes I’m a PJAK [the PKK-allied affiliate, active in Iran], sometimes I’m a YPG. It doesn’t really matter. They are all members of the PKK.”
The YPG’s casualty data confirms linkages between international PKK-linked groups. Kurds from Turkey total 49.24 percent of the YPG’s self-reported casualties between January 2013 and January 2016, according to an ongoing Atlantic Council study. YPG martyrdom notices show that 359 Turkish citizens, 323 Syrians, 32 Iranians, seven Iraqis, two Australians, two Azeris, and a person from England, Germany, Greece, and the United States each have been killed fighting with the group since January 2013. To be sure, there are methodological problems with the data: The two authors relied on self-reported numbers and have not been able to cross-reference this information with the PYD.
Sauce: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/m ... onnection/
by Chernoslavia » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:06 am
Gormwood wrote:Chernoslavia wrote:
I wasn't pretending, that's what I was responding to, but you decide to stick to your guns because you're mad that I proved you wrong. You're a liar and a bad one at that.
You're seriously deluding yourself into believing you actually refuted the point I was making. But you do you. I should have seen it when your flag is some Internet Tom Green rip off who got a show cancelled by [adult swim] before it even started.
by Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:08 am
Thank you most correct decision.Starblaydia wrote:Chestaan wrote:
Here's hoping the PKK step up their activities in Turkey.
Voicing support for the activities of a designated terrorist group (by at least a score of nations and international organisations) is not on, and as such you are *** warned for trolling (advocating violence/death) ***Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:The PKK would be much more preferable than Recep Turnip Erdodog's Islamist Reign of Terror across Anatolia.
Political nicknaming is not acceptable on this site. Knock it off.
Absolutely I agree. assad should be contactedUnited Muscovite Nations wrote:Torrocca wrote:
We both know that you don't actually think that my sarcastic response to your inane suggestion that I supposedly somehow think Kurds are superior to Turks was a racist jab against Turkish people. We both also know what you meant by blaming the crimes of the PKK in particular on the Kurds in general. Quit it with this bullshit.
The YPG is the Syrian branch of the PKK, as many have already sourced in the first few pages of this thread, and has been confirmed in the past by the US State Department. Turkey has a legitimate grievance.
by Vistulange » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:09 am
by Gormwood » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:10 am
Chernoslavia wrote:Gormwood wrote:You're seriously deluding yourself into believing you actually refuted the point I was making. But you do you. I should have seen it when your flag is some Internet Tom Green rip off who got a show cancelled by [adult swim] before it even started.
Ignoring your butthurt remark against my meme flag...I already did, multiple fucking times in fact and you know it. If you truly think otherwise, you're welcome to provide evidence that I said that genocide against Kurds is justified, but we both know you don't got shit on me and it's why you're intentionally trying to put words into my mouth.
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