Teaching children about hell

[Cappuccina]

What doesn't traumatize people nowadays?

Love, happiness, emotional and mental support, acceptance, compassion, etc... Despite for some reasons constantly wanting to go to war and have conflict, the human mind doesn't actually handle violence and negative emotions all too well.

Ironically, Satanists support and encourage most of those behaviors.

Acceptance, perhaps a bit too much of that these days.

What doesn't traumatize people nowadays?

People have always been traumatised by various things. However, unlike the people in the Middle Ages, we do care about people who experience a trauma and have the means to help them. Ever heard of empathy?

Oh, indeed. I have no issues with empathy, but I find it quite ridiculous (and hilarious) that the things "traumatizing" people have become increasingly asinine.

[Ding Ling]

What does everyone think about a company publishing a gory comic book about the Taoist 18 floors of Hell? Also, what does everyone think about the 18 floors of Hell theme park in Singapore filled with gory looking statues? Will they end up traumatizing children or is it okay to let the braver children view the comic or go to the theme park? Sorry if going off thread.

[Great Robertia]

As someone who has recently turned to atheism, this rings so painfully true. It's sickening, that people are drilled with so much fear and dread for something not real.

Even to this day, whenever the devil is mentioned I get a flush of fear and anxiety, even though my brain immediately rushes to calm me down that it's not real and made up by people to scare others into believing their nonsense. That is what religion does to people, it scars them emotionally and deeply.

If you ever want to talk about it, feel free to message us.
I can’t promise that I’ll be very good, but I’m happy to try.

Recently I have committed apostasy officially, so I'm slowly learning to live fear-free more and more it takes a lot of effort, but I'm getting there. It just shows how badly religion can damage someone, to have them experience fear and anxiety at something made up. It's why I vehemently oppose any form of religious schooling, because that's plain and cruel indoctrination.

[Mutualist Chaos]

That's what we call a straw man. I didn't say anything about religious beliefs generally, I responded quite precisely to the OP's specific question about hell. I believe that belief in hell, specifically, must result from trauma. There are plenty of religious beliefs I find congenial or even beautiful.

As far as I'm aware, Christianity does not confine its teachings to the lovely subjects of Hell and eternal damnation. Those comprise a very limited portion of what children learn in church. The people with whom you're conversing who profess to adhere to a Christian world view and who give every impression of doing so are not motivated by a deep-rooted terror of Hell because that's not what sermons seek to inculcate in most cases.

Thank you for repeating in detail essentially what I had just stated as a broad principle.

And the word "might" does not inspire confidence here.

Sorry, now I'm genuinely confused - I don't know where, or about what topic, I used the word "might." Perhaps this was directed at someone else?

If you're going to claim that a particular religious teaching is tantamount to child abuse, you ought to provide empirical evidence to corroborate your assertion.

Aware though I am that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data" I have gleaned enough evidence to satisfy myself on this account. A quick Google search reveals many, many partisan accounts both for and against, as well as a very occasional article relating strong belief in hell to prior well-attested abuse (e.g. https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt1p5f2bw). Not a lot of actual scientific work has been done on this topic, specifically - only the nearly intuitive result that people who have been abused often truly believe in hell. That sort of thing plus experiences of my friends, family, and self, plus a fair amount of philosophical reading and contemplation makes me pretty confident making the allegation.

Suffice to say I will never teach my children such a doctrine; I don't believe that most who profess it truly believe it; and while most likely won't convince any honest believers, perhaps I can sow the seeds of doubt a bit more widely.

As for proving it, well, you've got me there. No, I'm not a trained psychologist. Yet the teaching of hell conforms roughly to the well-known-even-by-laymen pattern of child abuse - those who were abused have a tendency to pass on the abuse, and it can be very difficult to break the cycle.

So you have no evidence? Alright then. I believe the statement that some are partial to is "anything asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence." Let us abide by that principle in this instance until such time as good data becomes available. Or, better yet, we can abide by the rule of magnanimity and not accuse people of being child abusers until that evidence is truly compelling.

This sounds like a lofty principle until you realize that it denies the reality of many people's experiences simply because they haven't been quantified by the right sort of person. FWIW I don't think people who teach the existence of hell are doing so maliciously; but I don't see any indication that the notion they are in fact harming their charges is incorrect.

Perhaps I ought to clarify that I don't think that everyone who professes to believe rote Abrahamic catechism is suffering from actual PTSD (but then, I never said they are...) - far more likely is that the theologians imposed their sick ideology on their followers, who largely have accepted it without necessarily feeling it in their bones they way they do with e.g. the Resurrection or the Rapture.

Well, we Jews have no concept akin to Hell, so I don't think your criticism here applies to Abrahamic religions more broadly. You're mostly griping about Christian beliefs here. That said, you have not demonstrated that teaching children about Hell is abusive or that Christianity, or any of its constituent beliefs and doctrines, is comparable to a mental illness or to trauma. At best, we can say that particular methods of teaching can be problematic, maybe. That's about it.

Methods? OK, sure - and specific doctrines. It's one thing when an older sibling pranks you with "Muahahaha, the babadook's gonna get you!" and something else entirely when parents and preachers get in on the act as a moral instruction. Threats of violence are a crime when stated one adult to another; why are we OK with threatening children with torture after death? And what is the psychological difference between an atheist parent constantly saying that a child is bad, bad, bad and they deserve punishment, vs. a religious parent saying that a child is bad, bad, bad and they are going to burn in hell?

Please point out where I said Christian theology is intrinsically and uniformly abusive (or even a paraphrase that could be reasonably interpreted to say that). Once again, I'm talking about hell, narrowly and specifically.

I haven't seen a counterargument from you that has amounted to more than bluster.

Nobody orthodox teaches children about Hell narrowly and specifically. That's the entire point.

So a stick is OK as long as you include a carrot with it? For purposes of moral instruction? That makes sense, we can't have children believing they could be eternally rewarded without the possibility of eternal punishment of not just boredom but total agony. Why, they might actually adopt the view that God loves them, and there's no telling what kind of egos they'd develop if that belief took root.

Why not just cut out all the uncertainty and use electroshock therapy, and then everyone can be assured of going to heaven? Or is that too big and sharp of a stick? What is the appropriate degree of psychological tearing-down and denigration-by-angelic-proxy to best balance out the obnoxiousness that belief in heaven will cause in those horrible millennials and gen-z kids?

For someone who claims not to believe in hell, you sure are defending it tooth and nail.

[Ors Might]

Ah. And what's the point in the question?

Based on the assumption you are in favour of teaching children about hell I wonder if you are also in favour of teaching them about the hellish places of other religions.

Why would they be? Their religion states that being of those beliefs would put them at risk of going to Hell. Your logic only works if Christianity treats all belief equally.

I can assure you that it most certainly does not.

[Rojava Free State]

If you ever want to talk about it, feel free to message us.
I can’t promise that I’ll be very good, but I’m happy to try.

Recently I have committed apostasy officially, so I'm slowly learning to live fear-free more and more it takes a lot of effort, but I'm getting there. It just shows how badly religion can damage someone, to have them experience fear and anxiety at something made up. It's why I vehemently oppose any form of religious schooling, because that's plain and cruel indoctrination.

Many atheists, agnostics and deists have felt the same feeling. You aren't the only one

[Fahran]

What doesn't traumatize people nowadays?

Love, happiness, emotional and mental support, acceptance, compassion, etc... Despite for some reasons constantly wanting to go to war and have conflict, the human mind doesn't actually handle violence and negative emotions all too well.

Ironically, Satanists support and encourage most of those behaviors.

It's weird to see ostensible leftists shilling for Rand wrapped in edginess. Because that's what the most popular brand of Satanism, LaVeyan Satanism, is. Frankly, it's a pretty irredeemable ideology.

[Alvecia]

Love, happiness, emotional and mental support, acceptance, compassion, etc... Despite for some reasons constantly wanting to go to war and have conflict, the human mind doesn't actually handle violence and negative emotions all too well.

Ironically, Satanists support and encourage most of those behaviors.

It's weird to see ostensible leftists shilling for Rand wrapped in edginess. Because that's what the most popular brand of Satanism, LaVeyan Satanism, is. Frankly, it's a pretty irredeemable ideology.

I think most are referring to the Satanic Temple rather than the Church of Satan.

It’s something of a “Peoples Front of Judea” situation, except the two are actually wildly different.

https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/what ... h-of-satan

[Vaukiai]

Ah. And what's the point in the question?

Based on the assumption you are in favour of teaching children about hell I wonder if you are also in favour of teaching them about the hellish places of other religions.

I am a Catholic, not a pagan!

Anyways no, I dislike all other religions. Specially those neopagan movements sympathizing Satan in my Catholic country, and the jews, you definitely know why.

[The Free Joy State]

What doesn't traumatize people nowadays?

Love, happiness, emotional and mental support, acceptance, compassion, etc... Despite for some reasons constantly wanting to go to war and have conflict, the human mind doesn't actually handle violence and negative emotions all too well.

Ironically, Satanists support and encourage most of those behaviors.

It depends on the type of religious belief a child is taught.

Where being taught to belief in a vengeful and punishing God has been shown to have a negative impact on children (to try and nudge back to the topic) being raised to believe in a loving and all-accepting God can have benefits. Of course, if people are taught -- for example as children -- that God hates unbelievers then this can stimulate the release of stress hormones.

Compassion, love, happiness, etc. can exist in religious and irreligious backgrounds. But telling your child they'll burn certainly does not seem conducive to that.

[Vaukiai]

Love, happiness, emotional and mental support, acceptance, compassion, etc... Despite for some reasons constantly wanting to go to war and have conflict, the human mind doesn't actually handle violence and negative emotions all too well.

Ironically, Satanists support and encourage most of those behaviors.

It depends on the type of religious belief a child is taught.

Where children are taught to belief in a vengeful and punishing God, which has a negative impact on children (to try and nudge back to the topic) being raised to believe in a loving and all-accepting God can have benefits. Of course, if people are taught -- for example as children -- that God hates unbelievers then this can stimulate the release of stress hormones.

Compassion, love, happiness, etc. can exist in religious and irreligious backgrounds. But telling your child they'll burn certainly does not seem conducive to that.

Are you talking about Christian God, or Allah, or Perkūnas?

[The Free Joy State]

It depends on the type of religious belief a child is taught.

Where children are taught to belief in a vengeful and punishing God, which has a negative impact on children (to try and nudge back to the topic) being raised to believe in a loving and all-accepting God can have benefits. Of course, if people are taught -- for example as children -- that God hates unbelievers then this can stimulate the release of stress hormones.

Compassion, love, happiness, etc. can exist in religious and irreligious backgrounds. But telling your child they'll burn certainly does not seem conducive to that.

Are you talking about Christian God, or Allah, or Perkūnas?

I'm reading scientific papers.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

Children with no ability to verify or reject information should not be taught things that have not been (or cannot be) verified as though they were fact. If your belief system can only survive if it forces people to accept fiction as truth, then it deserves to die.

[Vaukiai]

Are you talking about Christian God, or Allah, or Perkūnas?

I'm reading scientific papers.

The problem is that talking about religion as one is incorrect, there are plenty of religions with different beliefs and you can't group them in one idea.

[Europa Undivided]

State one example of being arbitrary.

No mixed fabrics
No shellfish

I am not going to repeat about something that has probably been said to you and others a thousand times in the CDT and elsewhere. Talk about stubborness, monsieur.

Love, happiness, emotional and mental support, acceptance, compassion, etc... Despite for some reasons constantly wanting to go to war and have conflict, the human mind doesn't actually handle violence and negative emotions all too well.

Ironically, Satanists support and encourage most of those behaviors.

It depends on the type of religious belief a child is taught.

Where being taught to belief in a vengeful and punishing God has been shown to have a negative impact on children (to try and nudge back to the topic) being raised to believe in a loving and all-accepting God can have benefits. Of course, if people are taught -- for example as children -- that God hates unbelievers then this can stimulate the release of stress hormones.

Compassion, love, happiness, etc. can exist in religious and irreligious backgrounds. But telling your child they'll burn certainly does not seem conducive to that.

The mistake that many Sunday school teachers do is use hell so soon.

mean, my mom only mentioned hell to me when I was 12, and everything else before that was heaven and salavation and a hinting of something “bad” that are their opposites.

I am a Catholic, not a pagan!

Anyways no, I dislike all other religions. Specially those neopagan movements sympathizing Satan in my Catholic country, and the jews, you definitely know why.

A bigot and antisemite. Charming.

I would understand very well if Vaukiai disdains neopagans but Jews? No, just no.

[Europa Undivided]

Children with no ability to verify or reject information should not be taught things that have not been (or cannot be) verified as though they were fact. If your belief system can only survive if it forces people to accept fiction as truth, then it deserves to die.

Don’t worry, most of Christianity’s increases these days are from willing conversions, not kids.

[Fahran]

Children with no ability to verify or reject information should not be taught things that have not been (or cannot be) verified as though they were fact. If your belief system can only survive if it forces people to accept fiction as truth, then it deserves to die.

I think you'd neglect quite a bit of your child's education in that manner. Lessons like "stealing is wrong" aren't really based on empirical evidence but rather on social conventions and a very simplistic form of logic that any nihilist can challenge by saying "nope."

[Alvecia]

No mixed fabrics
No shellfish

I am not going to repeat about something that has probably been said to you and others a thousand times in the CDT and elsewhere. Talk about stubborness, monsieur.

There are about 40 different excuses for them ones mate. Which one are you on about, maybe I haven't heard that one yet.

[Europa Undivided]

I am not going to repeat about something that has probably been said to you and others a thousand times in the CDT and elsewhere. Talk about stubborness, monsieur.

There are about 40 different excuses for them ones mate. Which one are you on about, maybe I haven't heard that one yet.

“”””””””””””””””””Excuses””””””””””””””””””””

Yes, someone isn’t treating literature as literature.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

Children with no ability to verify or reject information should not be taught things that have not been (or cannot be) verified as though they were fact. If your belief system can only survive if it forces people to accept fiction as truth, then it deserves to die.

Don’t worry, most of Christianity’s increases these days are from willing conversions, not kids.

I'd like to see a source for this.

Children with no ability to verify or reject information should not be taught things that have not been (or cannot be) verified as though they were fact. If your belief system can only survive if it forces people to accept fiction as truth, then it deserves to die.

I think you'd neglect quite a bit of your child's education in that manner. Lessons like "stealing is wrong" aren't really based on empirical evidence but rather on social conventions and a very simplistic form of logic that any nihilist can challenge by saying "nope."

I was never fed legends about a magic pain dimension where bad people go when they die. I was taught that stealing is against the rules and that breaking those rules invites punishment, which was reinforced when I tried stealing things and got punished for it.
Enough with the "atheists have no objective morality!" bullshit. Your morality doesn't need to be objective for it to be valid, it just needs to have weight. You don't follow the laws because you think the laws are morally correct, you follow them because there are punishments for breaking them and because, you know, you might not want to be an asshole. I don't think God cares that you were doing 90 in a 65, but the cops sure do.

[/rant]

Alright, I think I'm done now.

[Luna Amore]

Let the parents decide.

Children with no ability to verify or reject information should not be taught things that have not been (or cannot be) verified as though they were fact. If your belief system can only survive if it forces people to accept fiction as truth, then it deserves to die.

Following legislation in Evil Dictators Happyland, parents who tell their children about the Tooth Fairy are sentenced to hard labor.

[Alvecia]

There are about 40 different excuses for them ones mate. Which one are you on about, maybe I haven't heard that one yet.

“”””””””””””””””””Excuses””””””””””””””””””””

Yes, someone isn’t treating literature as literature.

That ain’t clarifying matters any

[Europa Undivided]

“”””””””””””””””””Excuses””””””””””””””””””””

Yes, someone isn’t treating literature as literature.

That ain’t clarifying matters any

That’s your problem, not mine, or ours.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

Let the parents decide.

Children with no ability to verify or reject information should not be taught things that have not been (or cannot be) verified as though they were fact. If your belief system can only survive if it forces people to accept fiction as truth, then it deserves to die.

Following legislation in Evil Dictators Happyland, parents who tell their children about the Tooth Fairy are sentenced to hard labor.

You misunderstand my point. I'm fine with fairy tales, I just don't like it when people frame their fairy tales as moral absolutes when, even in their native stories, they are not, and the children are expected to treat them as moral absolutes even long after they've rejected stories like the Tooth Fairy as exactly what they are - mere stories.

But now that I think about it, if there's an issue that allows you to ban teaching about the tooth fairy, I'd probably do exactly that...

[The Free Joy State]

I gave you the proof. Believe it or not, it's the truth

You gave me the definition of a word I did not use. I did not say semite, I said antisemite. So you gave me fuck all as proof, and therefore you are arguing in bad faith yet again.

NCR, I'm not sure antisemitism and its definition falls quite within the scope of the thread [/notamod]

It depends on the type of religious belief a child is taught.

Where being taught to belief in a vengeful and punishing God has been shown to have a negative impact on children (to try and nudge back to the topic) being raised to believe in a loving and all-accepting God can have benefits. Of course, if people are taught -- for example as children -- that God hates unbelievers then this can stimulate the release of stress hormones.

Compassion, love, happiness, etc. can exist in religious and irreligious backgrounds. But telling your child they'll burn certainly does not seem conducive to that.

The mistake that many Sunday school teachers do is use hell so soon.

mean, my mom only mentioned hell to me when I was 12, and everything else before that was heaven and salavation and a hinting of something “bad” that are their opposites.

I have no issue with parents mentioning Hell, as being in the scope of family beliefs. Using it to terrify children before their old enough to decide for themselves is what I take issue with.