UK Politics Thread X: Boris' Big Bonkers Brexit Bash

[Greater vakolicci haven]

So yes, we're back to trying to IdPol left-wing people to be anti-EU.

There are genuine left wing arguments against the EU. It'd be rather strange if there weren't given that the EU's response to the 2008 economic crash was austerity measures that hit the working classes the hardest. There are also legitimate criticisms of the lack of democratic process and overly bureaucratic nature of the EU. You don't have to agree with these criticisms Vass, but it's more than a bit frustrating to see you handwave them all away and infer that left wingers all support remain. It's simply not true.

We saw what happened when a genuine left-wing party tried to defy the EU. It's called Greece.

[Vassenor]

So yes, we're back to trying to IdPol left-wing people to be anti-EU.

There are genuine left wing arguments against the EU. It'd be rather strange if there weren't given that the EU's response to the 2008 economic crash was austerity measures that hit the working classes the hardest. There are also legitimate criticisms of the lack of democratic process and overly bureaucratic nature of the EU. You don't have to agree with these criticisms Vass, but it's more than a bit frustrating to see you handwave them all away and infer that left wingers all support remain. It's simply not true.

No, I'm calling them out for trying to demand that all Left Wingers support Leave.

[Caracasus]

There are genuine left wing arguments against the EU. It'd be rather strange if there weren't given that the EU's response to the 2008 economic crash was austerity measures that hit the working classes the hardest. There are also legitimate criticisms of the lack of democratic process and overly bureaucratic nature of the EU. You don't have to agree with these criticisms Vass, but it's more than a bit frustrating to see you handwave them all away and infer that left wingers all support remain. It's simply not true.

We saw what happened when a genuine left-wing party tried to defy the EU. It's called Greece.

Exactly. There's certainly plenty of reasons why left wingers would not necessarily support membership of the EU.

[Caracasus]

There are genuine left wing arguments against the EU. It'd be rather strange if there weren't given that the EU's response to the 2008 economic crash was austerity measures that hit the working classes the hardest. There are also legitimate criticisms of the lack of democratic process and overly bureaucratic nature of the EU. You don't have to agree with these criticisms Vass, but it's more than a bit frustrating to see you handwave them all away and infer that left wingers all support remain. It's simply not true.

No, I'm calling them out for trying to demand that all Left Wingers support Leave.

No, you're presenting those criticisms as a fringe movement by permanently online idpol rejects instead of actually engaging with left wing criticisms of the EU and attempting to understand what those might be.

[HC Eredivisie]

You're immediately jumping to conclusions again. Having already pigeonholed me with certain qualities your kneejerk is to fire off a conditioned response.

All I am putting forward is:- if you want to renationalise the railways(as I do) you may want to weigh that against remain.

Have a look at what this Trade Union activist has to say and decide for yourself. Then again don't as is your wont.

So if the EU is stopping us re-nationalising the railways, how do the French, the Dutch and the Germans have nationalised railways?

They never did that though.

[Vassenor]

No, I'm calling them out for trying to demand that all Left Wingers support Leave.

No, you're presenting those criticisms as a fringe movement by permanently online idpol rejects instead of actually engaging with left wing criticisms of the EU and attempting to understand what those might be.

"You have to be against the EU because they won't let us nationalise the railways" is a pretty big case of IdPol. It's literally saying that because you are in group X you have to hold view Y.

[Hirota]

Just to put into perspective about this 'rando'

some rando on Twitter

he is regularly invited onto Sky's newspaper review and was also on Sunrise this morning.

Maybe it's just me I just don't see someone who can read on TV as a qualifying factor to represent the whole of the left personally. And bear in mind I'm on the left, and I've been moving towards a more Eurosceptic viewpoint since '16.

But I'm guessing you didn't pick up on me pointing out the fallacious reasoning employed behind finding a small number of people in a demographic and claiming that entire demographic believes x.

You're hardly the only person guilty of doing it. Vass is a repeat offender, even though they now try and accuse you of doing it.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

No, you're presenting those criticisms as a fringe movement by permanently online idpol rejects instead of actually engaging with left wing criticisms of the EU and attempting to understand what those might be.

"You have to be against the EU because they won't let us nationalise the railways" is a pretty big case of IdPol. It's literally saying that because you are in group X you have to hold view Y.

Not really, it's a trade off. He's saying 'would you like to renationalise the railways or remain in the EU.'

[Caracasus]

No, you're presenting those criticisms as a fringe movement by permanently online idpol rejects instead of actually engaging with left wing criticisms of the EU and attempting to understand what those might be.

"You have to be against the EU because they won't let us nationalise the railways" is a pretty big case of IdPol. It's literally saying that because you are in group X you have to hold view Y.

That seems more like someone pointing out it'd be much harder to bring in policies like nationalization of railways within the EU - which is certainly something worth considering. I saw nothing in that post that said "you have to support x because y"

[Vassenor]

So if the EU is stopping us re-nationalising the railways, how do the French, the Dutch and the Germans have nationalised railways?

They never did that though.

So are we saying the EU blocks railway nationalisation or not?

Or did the SNCF and DB stop being state-owned while I wasn't looking?

[World Anarchic Union]

There are genuine left wing arguments against the EU. It'd be rather strange if there weren't given that the EU's response to the 2008 economic crash was austerity measures that hit the working classes the hardest. There are also legitimate criticisms of the lack of democratic process and overly bureaucratic nature of the EU. You don't have to agree with these criticisms Vass, but it's more than a bit frustrating to see you handwave them all away and infer that left wingers all support remain. It's simply not true.

We saw what happened when a genuine left-wing party tried to defy the EU. It's called Greece.

Eh, genuine is a strong word for the likes of SYRIZA.
But yes, the EU isn’t the leftist utopia many, conservatives, liberals, the far right or socdems, portray them to be. Just a bureaucratic institution, interested in maintaining the neoliberal status quo, privatizations and all, and satisfying their corporate backers. Very prone to instituting austerity measures and protecting the banks and the interests of the ruling classes of their leading countries, against the weaker ones. So, not much different than your normal, bourgeois liberal government, just on a larger basis and with a hint of more socially progressive policies.
Personally, as a far leftist, I am opposed to the EU. I am for European unity and integration, just not within the boundaries set by the EU. Not to say I support the justification used by most Brexit supporters or how your government went about it, a world class lesson in incompetence, imo.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

They never did that though.

So are we saying the EU blocks railway nationalisation or not?

Or did the SNCF and DB stop being state-owned while I wasn't looking?

The SNCF and DB weren't nationalised in a time when the current competition rules were in place.

[Phoenicaea]

^eu has shrunk, yet all things you guys noted, literally, have nothing in common with real.

[HC Eredivisie]

So are we saying the EU blocks railway nationalisation or not?

Or did the SNCF and DB stop being state-owned while I wasn't looking?

The SNCF and DB weren't nationalised in a time when the current competition rules were in place.

Exactly, the EU wasn't even in place at the time. And now they're still state owned, instead of again.

[New haven america]

Dunno, what you guys are complaining about. Britain sounds much better... or maybe it's just because I attract the weirdos whenever I have a cheeky pint in my local.

The weirdos seem to love me. I don't really know why.

I'm in the same boat, weirdos just seem to be drawn to me. Now some of them I've actually become friends with, while most I wish I could get restraining orders against.

Still, I find it equally weird that you're expected to not socialized in social areas. Course, I don't go to places like that anyway so that's not that big an issue for me, but still.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

The weirdos seem to love me. I don't really know why.

I'm in the same boat, weirdos just seem to be drawn to me. Now some of them I've actually become friends with, while most I wish I could get restraining orders against.

Still, I find it equally weird that you're expected to not socialized in social areas. Course, I don't go to places like that anyway so that's not that big an issue for me, but still.

The oddest event when was when some randomer sat down at a table with me and a friend and went:
'Hi Michael and Joe, strange to see you here, I thought you'd died years ago.'
(neither of us were called Michael or Joe.)

[New haven america]

I'm in the same boat, weirdos just seem to be drawn to me. Now some of them I've actually become friends with, while most I wish I could get restraining orders against.

Still, I find it equally weird that you're expected to not socialized in social areas. Course, I don't go to places like that anyway so that's not that big an issue for me, but still.

The oddest event when was when some randomer sat down at a table with me and a friend and went:
'Hi Michael and Joe, strange to see you here, I thought you'd died years ago.'
(neither of us were called Michael or Joe.)

IDK what you're talkin' about Joe, that seems perfectly normal.

My oddest events would either have to be the random druggie carrying around a half empty bag of bread and wearing his pants backwards telling me not to do drugs, or my semi stalker who's been doing it on and off for... 7 years now (Eh, she comes and goes).

[Chestaan]

No, you're presenting those criticisms as a fringe movement by permanently online idpol rejects instead of actually engaging with left wing criticisms of the EU and attempting to understand what those might be.

"You have to be against the EU because they won't let us nationalise the railways" is a pretty big case of IdPol. It's literally saying that because you are in group X you have to hold view Y.

By that logic saying that if you are in favour of open borders you should support the EU is also Idpol?

[Vassenor]

"You have to be against the EU because they won't let us nationalise the railways" is a pretty big case of IdPol. It's literally saying that because you are in group X you have to hold view Y.

By that logic saying that if you are in favour of open borders you should support the EU is also Idpol?

Has anyone tried to push that line?

[Chestaan]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indepe ... html%3famp

This goes through the nationalisation issue in detail. It seems that while current nationalised railways will be maintained, they will be forced to compete, perhaps in a limited sense, with private contractors.

[Infected Mushroom]

This is the first time I’ve heard of this

You mean to say that it’s not a cheerful, colorful and “magical” place like in Harry Potter?

I’ve always imagined that the standard UK-er was like a R. Dahl/Narnia protagonist (except more realistic): Cheerful curious headstrong adventurous sometimes a bit mischievious but on the whole good natured, a few stern power hungry school masters here and there but overall a lot of niceness

With you description I know imagine this super rainy, unfriendly land... with millions of Dursleys.

Have you ever actually been to the UK?

No but I’ve been to France, Italy, Germany, Belgium, Czech Republic

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Have you ever actually been to the UK?

No but I’ve been to France, Italy, Germany, Belgium, Czech Republic

This will give you a better understanding of the UK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaVaBMt ... kxmZcPQRz5

[Infected Mushroom]

No but I’ve been to France, Italy, Germany, Belgium, Czech Republic

This will give you a better understanding of the UK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaVaBMt ... kxmZcPQRz5

But all the British expats who work here seem so friendly

They basically match my pre imagined profile

Maybe it self selects in some way?

[Philjia]

The opposition will not back Monday's election motion.

[Old Tyrannia]

This will give you a better understanding of the UK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaVaBMt ... kxmZcPQRz5

But all the British expats who work here seem so friendly

They basically match my pre imagined profile

Maybe it self selects in some way?

Most British leftists are extremely self-loathing, so of course if you ask leftists about Britain they will paint the most negative picture possible.