Old Tyrannia wrote:Oh my God, there's two of us.
Wait, really? Just us? I thought most Brexiteers would at least want some amicable split from the union.
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by Esheaun Stroakuss » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:57 am
Old Tyrannia wrote:Oh my God, there's two of us.
by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:58 am
Esheaun Stroakuss wrote:Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:A brexiteer who doesn’t want no deal?
According to some here, you do not exist.
Of course I want a deal, that's why I was so bitterly disappointed by May's attempts at getting one. I wanted us to leave the union on good(ish) terms. Now it doesn't seem possible.
by Greater vakolicci haven » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:58 am
by Esheaun Stroakuss » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:00 am
by Old Tyrannia » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:02 am
by Phoenicaea » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:02 am
by The Free Joy State » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:09 am
Greater Loegria wrote:Vassenor wrote:
While openly advocating for breaking it because Brenda thinks that democratic debate on Brexit is a good thing.
I like the monarchy as in institution. It is the most noble form of statecraft. I love watching the royal weddings, the Christmas address, the pomp and ceremony, a hereditary House of Lords.
But I fear that they, like most of the ruling class of this nation, simply oligarchic globalist neoliberals. Quite happy to sell our national heritage. The day that becomes blatantly apparent they must go.
Old Tyrannia wrote:Souseiseki wrote:
if it wasn't going to fuck us it would be absolutely amazing to behold. imagine the sheer balls to complain about how the EU is undemocratic then pull that shit. every single time any person brings up leaving the EU ever again throughout the entire continent for the next 50 years would, if people have their heads screwed on right, be something along the lines of "but look at the complete shitshow that was brexit".
I don't really understand why people complain about the EU being undemocratic either. Perhaps it's because I'm not particularly keen on democracy in the first place, but to be truthful the existence of the European Parliament and Commission are a big aspect of why I dislike the whole organisation. If it were organised as a simple league of countries governed as far as possible by something resembling the Concert of Europe, I'd be much more enthusiastic about the whole project. It's specifically the assumption of state-like apparatus by the EU, such as a directly elected parliamentary body, that I dislike, since it's part of the EU's general federalist ambitions.Esheaun Stroakuss wrote:The no deal scenario is pretty much total departure without anything. A deal means a divorce/settlement, no deal is literally leaving without any compensation.
The idea of Brexit is not damaging. As someone who originally voted for it, I still don't see it as the worst thing ever. Rather, the way it's been handled by this government and the idea of a no deal is what's probably going to fuck things up.
Oh my God, there's two of us.
by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:09 am
Let's not go back to that shall we?"Eines etwas unerfröhlicher Akzent des Ganzen, wenn Mann daran denkt, das Irland, ein Teil Europas-, ein Teil des westlichen Europas so eine Unruhe herrscht im Britischen Königreich, worden ist und immer noch bleibt..."
"An somewhat unhappy accent to the whole, when you consider that such unrest rules in Ireland of the United Kingdom, a part of Europe-, a part of Western Europe. Always has been and always will be..."
by Souseiseki » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:10 am
Old Tyrannia wrote:Esheaun Stroakuss wrote:
Wait, really? Just us? I thought most Brexiteers would at least want some amicable split from the union.
I'm sure most do, but the hardliners pushing for a no deal scenario have sort of drowned out any more moderate voices. Similarly I think many remain voters who might have been open to some kind of compromise have been silenced by pressure from hardline Europhiles demanding a second vote. In general the current political climate and our partisan system is driving more people towards the extremes.
by Phoenicaea » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:13 am
by Cerinda » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:14 am
Esheaun Stroakuss wrote:As always, she and her inbred minions will be fine whilst the rest of us get our arseholes annexed by the might of the Tory thundercock.
by Old Tyrannia » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:15 am
Souseiseki wrote:Old Tyrannia wrote:I'm sure most do, but the hardliners pushing for a no deal scenario have sort of drowned out any more moderate voices. Similarly I think many remain voters who might have been open to some kind of compromise have been silenced by pressure from hardline Europhiles demanding a second vote. In general the current political climate and our partisan system is driving more people towards the extremes.
second vote is an integral step to any compromise that doesn't involve parliament just going along with whatever they think it best. the idea that is it is some hardcore europhile thing is a product of the media and brexit politicians.
Cerinda wrote:I just want to remind people what happened the last time a monarch tried to suspend parliment.
by Ifreann » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:18 am
Old Tyrannia wrote:Souseiseki wrote:
second vote is an integral step to any compromise that doesn't involve parliament just going along with whatever they think it best. the idea that is it is some hardcore europhile thing is a product of the media and brexit politicians.
I don't consider a second vote to be a compromise. A compromise to me would be EFTA membership or a Norway+ style deal that involved the UK remaining in the customs union and/or the single market. Attempting to avoid leaving altogether by holding a second referendum does not seem to be in the spirit of compromise.
Looking back we (as in, leave supporters) were perhaps unjustified in rejecting the deal May negotiated, as problematic as it was. The way things are looking now, May's deal is beginning to look like an attractive alternative.
by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:19 am
Old Tyrannia wrote:Parliament has been suspended by the monarch many times since the English Civil War. It's a regular part of our political process.
by Dooom35796821595 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:21 am
by Ifreann » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:23 am
Dooom35796821595 wrote:On one hand we have the opposition parties planning a coup to put Corbin in charge, on the other we have Boris trying to do a Sidious.
Where’s Guy Fawkes when you need him...
by Old Tyrannia » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:24 am
by Souseiseki » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:25 am
Old Tyrannia wrote:Souseiseki wrote:
second vote is an integral step to any compromise that doesn't involve parliament just going along with whatever they think it best. the idea that is it is some hardcore europhile thing is a product of the media and brexit politicians.
I don't consider a second vote to be a compromise. A compromise to me would be EFTA membership or a Norway+ style deal that involved the UK remaining in the customs union and/or the single market. Attempting to avoid leaving altogether by holding a second referendum does not seem to be in the spirit of compromise.
Looking back we (as in, leave supporters) were perhaps unjustified in rejecting the deal May negotiated, as problematic as it was. The way things are looking now, May's deal is beginning to look like an attractive alternative.Cerinda wrote:I just want to remind people what happened the last time a monarch tried to suspend parliment.
Parliament has been suspended by the monarch many times since the English Civil War. It's a regular part of our political process.
by Dooom35796821595 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:26 am
by Old Tyrannia » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:41 am
Souseiseki wrote:Old Tyrannia wrote:I don't consider a second vote to be a compromise. A compromise to me would be EFTA membership or a Norway+ style deal that involved the UK remaining in the customs union and/or the single market. Attempting to avoid leaving altogether by holding a second referendum does not seem to be in the spirit of compromise.
Looking back we (as in, leave supporters) were perhaps unjustified in rejecting the deal May negotiated, as problematic as it was. The way things are looking now, May's deal is beginning to look like an attractive alternative.
Parliament has been suspended by the monarch many times since the English Civil War. It's a regular part of our political process.
a second vote would break the deadlock by providing a majority for a given option. this makes EEA/EFTA viable, since no dealers would scream their heads off about how it's a betrayal of the people otherwise. though, yes, i would probably want remain on there since, to paraphrase nigel farage, i am not willing to accept 52-48 as the end of it. i don't think the media would be anywhere near as terrified of the idea of having remain on the ballot or the idea of a second vote at all if there wasn't a real prospect remain would win.
Dooom35796821595 wrote:On one hand we have the opposition parties planning a coup to put Corbin in charge, on the other we have Boris trying to do a Sidious.
Where’s Guy Fawkes when you need him...
by Esheaun Stroakuss » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:44 am
by Ifreann » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:45 am
Old Tyrannia wrote:Souseiseki wrote:
a second vote would break the deadlock by providing a majority for a given option. this makes EEA/EFTA viable, since no dealers would scream their heads off about how it's a betrayal of the people otherwise. though, yes, i would probably want remain on there since, to paraphrase nigel farage, i am not willing to accept 52-48 as the end of it. i don't think the media would be anywhere near as terrified of the idea of having remain on the ballot or the idea of a second vote at all if there wasn't a real prospect remain would win.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I don't think remaining in the EU should be an option at this stage, and if we were to have a second referendum and a majority voted to remain I personally would feel that democracy had been manipulated to frustrate the ambitions of those of us who have wished to leave all along. I suspect I would not be the only leave voter to feel that way, and that would be quite dangerous.
by Nakena » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:46 am
Old Tyrannia wrote:To be honest at this point a Corbyn government does not scare me the way that it used to. If Corbyn was able to negotiate some kind of amicable exit from the EU and keep the union together, well, I'll never like the man but I would respect him far more than any other Prime Minister in my lifetime. He certainly couldn't do a worse job than the current administration. I'm so frustrated with the political right in this country at the moment that the other day I genuinely thought about joining the Labour Party. There have been times in our country's past when the socialists have proven to be truer patriots than the so-called conservatives, and with the Tories set on a path that could lead to the dissolution of the United Kingdom I've wondered if this might prove to be one of those times.
by Souseiseki » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:46 am
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I don't think remaining in the EU should be an option at this stage, and if we were to have a second referendum and a majority voted to remain I personally would feel that democracy had been manipulated to frustrate the ambitions of those of us who have wished to leave all along. I suspect I would not be the only leave voter to feel that way, and that would be quite dangerous.
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