by Al Mumtahanah » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:28 pm
by Jean-Paul Sartre » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:35 pm
Al Mumtahanah wrote:It was ruled Tanvir v Tanzin that Muslims can't be forced to spy or inform on each other as this violates religious freedom (spying on Muslims or informing behind their back is forbidden in Islam). Now the Trump administration is challenging that and trying to get it overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court. Think Progress published an article BACKING him, specifically because overturning it would allow cracking down on Christian religious freedom.
https://thinkprogress.org/trumps-lawyer ... 274cb/amp/
What do you think? It's a very dangerous precedent and should be opposed by all, this could also be used to force Catholic priests to inform on people who confess to them.
by Geneviev » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:36 pm
by Vetalia » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:46 pm
by Fartsniffage » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:48 pm
Vetalia wrote:Where in the Constitution does it permit the government to use extortion to force people to be informants? That sounds like something you'd expect the KGB to do, but I know full well this type of nonsense has happened numerous times in the past.
I think exposing government employees to personal liability for violating the law would be a great step in enforcing accountability for their actions; if I do something illegal in the course of my work, e.g. cause an serious accident due to reckless driving on the way to a client, both myself and my employer can be held liable. I see no reason why it should be different for employees of the government who after all are ultimately accountable to the citizens of this country. We're the ultimate boss of the President, Congress, and all the rest of the Federal Government.
by Totally Not OEP » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:00 pm
Fartsniffage wrote:Vetalia wrote:Where in the Constitution does it permit the government to use extortion to force people to be informants? That sounds like something you'd expect the KGB to do, but I know full well this type of nonsense has happened numerous times in the past.
I think exposing government employees to personal liability for violating the law would be a great step in enforcing accountability for their actions; if I do something illegal in the course of my work, e.g. cause an serious accident due to reckless driving on the way to a client, both myself and my employer can be held liable. I see no reason why it should be different for employees of the government who after all are ultimately accountable to the citizens of this country. We're the ultimate boss of the President, Congress, and all the rest of the Federal Government.
Where in the US Constitution does it disallow it?
by Vetalia » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:00 pm
Fartsniffage wrote:Vetalia wrote:Where in the Constitution does it permit the government to use extortion to force people to be informants? That sounds like something you'd expect the KGB to do, but I know full well this type of nonsense has happened numerous times in the past.
I think exposing government employees to personal liability for violating the law would be a great step in enforcing accountability for their actions; if I do something illegal in the course of my work, e.g. cause an serious accident due to reckless driving on the way to a client, both myself and my employer can be held liable. I see no reason why it should be different for employees of the government who after all are ultimately accountable to the citizens of this country. We're the ultimate boss of the President, Congress, and all the rest of the Federal Government.
Where in the US Constitution does it disallow it?
by Fartsniffage » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:02 pm
by Fartsniffage » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:03 pm
Vetalia wrote:Fartsniffage wrote:
Where in the US Constitution does it disallow it?
The Ninth Amendment.
And seriously, do you think it's a good idea to base the government's power on what it can get away with? There would be no issue with establishing federal debtors' prisons and a feudal system with titles of nobility based on that logic.
by Totally Not OEP » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:06 pm
by Vetalia » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:06 pm
Fartsniffage wrote:You guys are always talking about your constitution like it came down from god. Not my fault it doesn't say what you want it to in this case.
by Fartsniffage » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:08 pm
by Kowani » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:17 pm
Fartsniffage wrote:Totally Not OEP wrote:
Stop before you say anything else that shows how uninformed you are and then go read the 9th Amendment.
I know it. I also know that the Supreme Court has never held that bullying people by Federal agents is against the Constitution. In fact, they've supported it. So ....
by Fartsniffage » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:19 pm
by Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:20 pm
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
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by Kowani » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:20 pm
by Fartsniffage » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:21 pm
by Vetalia » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:23 pm
by Fartsniffage » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:24 pm
by Fartsniffage » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:35 pm
by Purgatio » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:57 pm
by Al Mumtahanah » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:01 pm
Purgatio wrote:Tanvir v. Tanzin was a terrible decision and I sincerely hope it gets overturned. Sorry but your religious beliefs aren't some line-item veto on either the criminal law or the criminal investigative process. The reality is that these men and their refusal to serve as FBI criminal informants placed incredible suspicion on them and their activities, it was too dangerous not to place them on the No-Fly List, and citing some obscure verse in some obscure book is not an 'excuse' to hold up an investigative process. Religious liberty is not some catch-all term that can be used to ham-string counter-terrorism and criminal investigation or to excuse behaviour that obstructs that process.
Anyway, hope it gets overturned and these despicable men get placed back on the No-Fly List where they belong. They deserve much worse and should be grateful that's all that happened to them.
by Nova Cyberia » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:05 pm
by Purgatio » Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:06 pm
Al Mumtahanah wrote:Purgatio wrote:Tanvir v. Tanzin was a terrible decision and I sincerely hope it gets overturned. Sorry but your religious beliefs aren't some line-item veto on either the criminal law or the criminal investigative process. The reality is that these men and their refusal to serve as FBI criminal informants placed incredible suspicion on them and their activities, it was too dangerous not to place them on the No-Fly List, and citing some obscure verse in some obscure book is not an 'excuse' to hold up an investigative process. Religious liberty is not some catch-all term that can be used to ham-string counter-terrorism and criminal investigation or to excuse behaviour that obstructs that process.
Anyway, hope it gets overturned and these despicable men get placed back on the No-Fly List where they belong. They deserve much worse and should be grateful that's all that happened to them.
It's not obscure, it is a well known doctrine among most Muskims, I even saw a fatwa against security cameras around a mosque based on it.
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