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**DRAFT RULESET** Re-write of the SC rules/rule compendium

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Ransium
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**DRAFT RULESET** Re-write of the SC rules/rule compendium

Postby Ransium » Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:43 am

Hello. I've decided to undertake an attempt to update the Security Council Rules. While the brevity of the current rule set is nice, I don't like that to truly not fall on the wrong side of them you have to read the much longer, less manageable, and somewhat self-contradictory compendium, as well as noting that, practically, some mod ruling aren't 100% consistent with the letter of the compendium. I'm seeking a compromise of a two-part ruleset, the first part consisting of a slightly longer rule summary and the second part a much shorter fleshing out of the rules. In this effort, my desire is not to completely re-write the ruleset or re-litigate past controversial rulings (in fact, I've used the exact word choice of the old rules often) but to have a ruleset that is fully consistent and easy to use.

Anyhow this is the first time this draft has been posted anywhere, so things are still very fluid and I'm willing to abandon the idea entirely if it proves to not be popular. There's probably an abundance of typos that need fixing as well. So please feel free to give feedback and comments (noting the requests for major changes to the ruleset are very unlikely to be taken seriously.)



The 12 Rules of the Security Council
  1. Do not violate the One Stop Rule Shop in a proposal (note in particular rules regarding plagiarization).
  2. Do not commend/condemn members of the site staff for their actions performed as staff. Site staff includes Moderators, Administrators, Issues Editors, Roleplay Mentors, and GenSec.
  3. Do not state or imply that players violated site rules or performed real-life illegal actions.
  4. Provide unique and relevant arguments for your proposal.
  5. Provide an operative clause stating clearly what the proposal does.
  6. A Resolution can either commend, condemn, or liberate a single target, or repeal an existing resolution; they cannot perform any other actions.
  7. Do not refer to the real world outside of NationStates.
  8. Do not refer to nations as the players behind them. Don't use personal pronouns to refer to nations that apply to people (he, she, etc.).
  9. Do not refer to the game, or events or actions in it, as part of a game.
  10. Write from the perspective of the World Assembly. Don't try to sneak yourself or organization into the proposal, such as through acrostics.
  11. Do not try to commend/condemn a player due exclusively to a single World Assembly Resolution they passed or attempted to pass.
  12. Do not exceed a 5000-character limit to proposals.


In-Depth Explanation
  1. Please read the One Stop Rule Shop in-depth. In addition to the rules proposals must follow, it provides rules for general conduct on the forums and properly campaigning for the SC resolutions. Please note that writing things that are factually inaccurate about a nation/region is not necessarily against the site rules and proposals can be factually inaccurate and legal. Note the SC forum generally allows only one thread per draft (except a re-draft after a proposal is defeated).

    Submitting a plagiarized proposal will result in immediate ejection from the WA without warning. Plagiarization includes the wholesale copy and pasting of someone else's work, as well as copying the word choice, sentence structure, or other parts of another person's work without permission, even if some or many of the individual words have been changed. The plagiarism rule includes existing real-world laws or other works not attached to NationStates that are not yours.

  2. Any action taken by the site staff as staff cannot be explicitly used as a reason for a commendation of condemnation. For moderators, this means all moderation actions are off the table; for GenSec, any GenSec ruling cannot be mentioned (although mentioning GA resolutions they've passed while serving as GenSec are fine); for Issue Editors, any issues they wrote or were published while they were IEs (and obviously any issues edited) cannot be mention. Issues written and published entirely before they became IEs or after they retired from being IEs can be mentioned. Roleplay done by mentors is fair game, commending/condemning mentors for the assistance they've given other nations in roleplay in their role as mentors is not.

  3. If someone violates site rules, please file a GHR. Note that words that can sometimes be applied to two nations interactions in the real world, especially "trolling" are likely to be interpreted as a violation of this rule.

    If someone has committed a real-world crime please contact the relevant authorities.

  4. You cannot take an SC action without providing any relevant arguments as to why that action should be taken. For a commendation/condemnation/liberations, your arguments for an action cannot already be mentioned in an existing SC resolution about the target. Broad stroke references to facts stated in another (e.g. a region being condemned twice for raiding as long as completely different raids are mentioned in each resolution) are fine. A liberation can mention the raid of the relevant region, even if it has already been used as a reason to commend or condemn a target. For repeals, the repeal must, in some way, address the arguments of the resolution they are repealing. Note that all passed resolutions are legal by virtue of having been passed (although no precedent is set by them), a proposal not conforming to the current rule set cannot be mentioned as an argument for repeal. Proposals that are objective spam, but don't manage to violate any other rules can be removed via this rule.

  5. Your proposal must clearly state the action being undertaken. For example, to condemn Examplestan, a proposal must somewhere in the body of the text contain the words "Hereby condemns Examplestan" or something functionally equivalent, including some form of the word "condemn" and exactly "Examplestan". Misspelling of either the action or the name of the target in the operative clause are not allowed (misspellings in the rest of the proposal are not usually a legal matter). Nicknames or abbreviations for the target are not allowed in the operative clause. The stated action must match the title of the proposal. Only one form of action can be taken per proposal for one target. Although the proposal may state the action being undertaken multiple times, each time it is stated it must be written correctly. For repeals, the proposal must clearly state either the resolution number, the name of the resolution being repealed, or both. Stating "Hereby repeals this proposal" is not sufficient. The game provided boilerplate does not fulfill this requirement.

  6. A proposal cannot claim to take any action aside from the purpose of the proposal. For example, the proposal cannot state the tariffs will be placed on a nation, a nation will be forced to leave a region, etc (note that saying tariffs should be placed on a nation is legal as long as it doesn't actually place them). A proposal cannot commend/condemn actions, only and exclusively the target of the proposal. One should be cautious regarding liberations, since liberations only remove delegate imposed passwords. Calling for the removal of a password that is actually founder imposed may violate the rules. Note that you can still liberate a region with a founder imposed password, you just can't, in the body of the text, call for the removal of the password.

  7. A proposal cannot include any real-world people, places, events, etc. References to dates using the real world calendar are fine. References to real-world religion are ok. Reference to large scale political movements and ideas (communism, nazism, socialism, etc.) are acceptable.

  8. Nations cannot be referred to as "he" or "she" and other personal pronouns not typically used to describe a nation. If describing the characteristics of a player, they must be presented in a way such that could be applied to a nation (e.g. a nation would not be described as having poor grammar.) Note that discussing the leader/ambassador of nations or other role played characters within the nation is acceptable.

  9. Terms used by the game such as "passwords", "World Factbook Entries", "founders", "eject", "regional message boards", are legal. Referencing the existence of regional tags is legal, but not all of the tagged terms are legal. Referencing "puppets" is legal, as this term is used to describe some real-world nations, however using the term in a way that makes clear they are being used in a game is not (eg "puppet storage"). Referencing "forums" is legal as this has a real-world meaning, referencing "posts", "threads", or other terms that make clear the forum is electronic is not. "NationStates", the "NationStates community", "the multiverse", are all legal ways of referring to the NationStates world, among others. Referencing a "feeder" or "sinker" region is legal, referencing a "game created region" or "user-created region" is not. Other commonly used terms or modification of terms which clearly refer to NationStates as a game, such as "gameplayer", "roleplayer", "user" are not legal.

    (Re-)Defining illegal terms in a legal way does not make the terms legal. Having the terms used in the name of an award or conference does not make the terms legal. If the terms are spelled via an acronym in the name of a conference, it may be legal, so long as the words the acronym are composed of are legal and it is not felt this is being done merely to skirt the rules.

    Direct links to past proposals, nation pages, and region pages are acceptable. Direct links to anywhere else, including forum posts or a precise RMB post are not legal. Such links can (and should) be placed in the drafting thread along with any other evidence that is OSRS legal but does not conform to the SC proposal rules.

  10. Usage of terms such as "I", "my", etc. are not legal. Although not required, first lines of proposal clarifying perspective must be clearly from the perspective of the World Assembly or Security Council, for example, "The Security Council,". First lines must never address the council, for example, "To the Security Council,". A proposal must never be clearly coming from the perspective of a single nation, region, or group of players. Acrostics are not a good idea and in particular cannot be used to spell out the name of a player, region, group of players, etc. within a proposal (other non-conventional formats such as poetry are fine so long as they conform to all other rules). A list of supporters of the proposal, friends of the target, etc. cannot be included in the proposal. You cannot explicitly advertise nations move to a region in a proposal.

    Listing co-authors at the end of a proposal is acceptable and encouraged. Co-authors should be limited to nations that substantially contributed to a resolution, practically, this can be no more than 3 or 4 nations. The author should not list 2 nations as co-authors if he knows those nations are controlled by the same player. Listing your own puppet as a co-author is not legal.

  11. Although a target's past WA proposal authorship or attempted authorship are valid reasons for a commendation/condemnation, a commendation/condemnation cannot be based mostly or entirely on a single proposal.

  12. Keep your proposals under 5000 characters not words. This is a game enforced requirement, so if your proposal was successfully submitted, it conforms to the requirement. It is worth keeping in mind none the less.




Notes on how this meant to deviate from the current ruleset:

IMO what is a joke proposal and symbolic only proposal should not be moderation decisions. If the delegates choose to approve such proposals that's their call.

I know Ard said branding is legal in the SC in the compendium, but I never really understood what he meant by that, as everything I would consider branding is basically not legal. I've changed and clarified what comprises a tit-for-tat violation and when acrostics are legal.

I've removed a lot of spelling out of what things are legal, as I feel like often spelling out what's not legal and in most cases simply implying everything else is legal leads to a much less verbose ruleset. I've removed a bunch of stuff in compendium that is already covered in the OSRS (it is after all the one stop). I may have made some modification on the always hazy rule 4 legality line, but I tried to spell out my understanding of where moderation is currently at.
Last edited by Ransium on Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:49 am, edited 18 times in total.

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:03 am

Some general thoughts I have rn:

Your etc in the first concise only has one other, and I think it makes more sense to just say 'General Secretariat' anywayd.

If your removing assorted clarifications because the OSRS has them, might be good to state that as a rule you can't write things violating the OSRS.

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Ransium
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Postby Ransium » Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:26 am

Lord Dominator wrote:Some general thoughts I have rn:

Your etc in the first concise only has one other, and I think it makes more sense to just say 'General Secretariat' anywayd.

If your removing assorted clarifications because the OSRS has them, might be good to state that as a rule you can't write things violating the OSRS.


Okay, I've made your suggested adjustments.

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Flanderlion
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Postby Flanderlion » Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:59 am

Does the 5000 include or exclude space's and tags?

Completely agree re the joke proposal bit, shouldn't be a mod decision.

So does this mean we are or aren't allowed to keep putting hidden messages into SC resolutions?

Overall went into this thread expecting it to be a step back, looks like a leap forward instead.
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Eumaeus
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Postby Eumaeus » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:01 am

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I have some work I need to get done today, but I'll try to post my detailed thoughts on this ruleset some time tonight.

Just so this post has some sort of substantive content though, I don't really like the whole "thou shall not" theme we're going with. OOC I think it detracts from the clarity of the rules, and IC I don't think it fits with the theme of the Security Council, or of NationStates in general.

Also just to clarify, this is a rewording/reformatting of the current rules that wouldn't actually change anything, correct?
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Postby Bears Armed » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:22 am

Ransium wrote:I know Ard said branding is legal in the SC in the compendium, but I never really understood what he meant by that, as everything I would consider branding is basically not legal.

1) Last I heard, Ardchoille is "she", not "he".
2) 'Branding' as the GA uses it includes mentioning any specific nation or character or region by name: Applying the GA's definition to the SC would therefore forbid naming the targets of proposals, and thus effectively make all proposals illegal!

_____________________________________________________

What about "tit-for-tat" proposals?
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:33 am

Tit-for-tat is covered in 11
Flanderlion wrote:Does the 5000 include or exclude space's and tags?

5000 is the actual technical character limit at the moment I believe, so presumably yes.
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Postby Marilyn Manson Freaks » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:31 am

What Nohbdy said. I don't think a 12 Commandments theme would work and coexist with the SC, but nice try, Ransium. :P

Also, I don't like #11. Anything should be actionable as long as it's in-character.
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Ransium
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Postby Ransium » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:30 am

Flanderlion wrote:Does the 5000 include or exclude space's and tags?


As others have said, it's a technical restriction. Not sure the answer TBH.

Flanderlion wrote:So does this mean we are or aren't allowed to keep putting hidden messages into SC resolutions?


Not sure what you mean by "hidden messages" if you mean that if you play your resolution at 1.5 speed backwards it says 'Hail Satan' that's still okay. If you mean acrostics we've already been mostly ruling those illegal this just better codify it.

Flanderlion wrote:Overall went into this thread expecting it to be a step back, looks like a leap forward instead.


Hahaha, thanks?

Eumaeus wrote:

[I have some work I need to get done today, but I'll try to post my detailed thoughts on this ruleset some time tonight.

Just so this post has some sort of substantive content though, I don't really like the whole "thou shall not" theme we're going with. OOC I think it detracts from the clarity of the rules, and IC I don't think it fits with the theme of the Security Council, or of NationStates in general.


Okay, it was my lame attempt at humor but it's not essential so I'll take it out.

Eumaeus wrote:Also just to clarify, this is a rewording/reformatting of the current rules that wouldn't actually change anything, correct?


At the big picture level yes. At the edges (eg joke proposals), I am making some changes.

Bears Armed wrote:
Ransium wrote:I know Ard said branding is legal in the SC in the compendium, but I never really understood what he meant by that, as everything I would consider branding is basically not legal.

1) Last I heard, Ardchoille is "she", not "he".


My bad, don't know what I was thinking.
Bears Armed wrote:2) 'Branding' as the GA uses it includes mentioning any specific nation or character or region by name: Applying the GA's definition to the SC would therefore forbid naming the targets of proposals, and thus effectively make all proposals illegal!


That's too bad as branding describes nicely what I'm trying to prevent. I'll seek some other words that don't conflict with how it's used in the GA.

Marilyn Manson Freaks wrote:What Nohbdy said. I don't think a 12 Commandments theme would work and coexist with the SC, but nice try, Ransium. :P

Also, I don't like #11. Anything should be actionable as long as it's in-character.


Tit-for-tat, which 11 is bringing to the foreground, has long been a rule, I didn't make it up here. While I agree there's some logic to your argument as we don't filter for quality, a single controversial proposal tends to solicit like 5 terrible tit-for-tat counter responses/counter-counter responses. I think discouraging those proposals is no great loss, as submitting a single proposal that often didn't even pass is never going to be enough for a commendation/condemnation and ofter these proposals are just stirring up more shit and making the target feel even worse than they likely already did. If someone submits a string of (or even two) bad proposals and all were brought up rule 11 wouldn't be in effect though (although personally, I would much prefer we ignore such cases and they never pass anyway).

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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:14 pm

Some first-read notes from me-

Ransium wrote:Don't state or imply that players violated site rules or performed real-life illegal actions.

If someone violates site rules, please file a GHR. Note that words that can sometimes be applied to two nations interactions in the real world, especially "trolling" are likely to be interpreted as a violation of this rule.

If someone has committed a real-world crime please contact the relevant authorities.


I think the first part of this is overkill. While I get what you're going for, there's more than one perfectly legal resolution on record that refers to a nation or region's history of breaking game rules, phrased in the typical SC manner. Consider as examples: Liberate Iran invokes the founder's WA ejection; Repeal Condemn The Black Riders invokes their scripting bans and series of DEATs/DoS.

For that matter, you're apt to confuse newcomers with the second part - language such as "ethnic cleansing," "hate speech," and even "promoting fascism" represent "real life illegal actions" (in some cases country-dependant), and are commonplace in the world of a political sim. And in some cases, like fascist regalia, what the subject is doing *may actually be illegal in their home country*. Again, I get the intention of all this, but I'm not sure at present it's constructive to actually helping newcomers understand the SC.






Ransium wrote:Don't try to commend/condemn a player due exclusively to a single World Assembly resolution they passed or attempted to pass.

Although a target's past WA proposal authorship or attempted authorship are valid reasons for a commendation/condemnation, a commendation/condemnation cannot be based mostly or entirely on a single proposal.


I'm personally reading this as making the "tit for tat" rule perhaps stricter, and at least murkier. The current ruling states -

Proposals which are solely 'tit-for-tat' proposals (ie Condemns Nation X for Condemning Nation Y) will be deleted. However, if they have other substance to them besides the 'tit-for-tat' argument, they are unlikely to be deleted:

Ardchoille wrote:For the reasons above, Sedge, I'm very reluctant to invoke "tit for tat" against any half-way substantive proposal. I used it on a series of "if you condemn me, I'll condemn you. And your dog, and your aunt, and your aunt's dog" proposals, but I don't think mods should interfere in SC proposals much beyond that. In the GA we have to hold proposals to standards that allow new laws to interact with old, but each SC proposal is, in a sense, a one-off: if you condemn nation X, that doesn't mean that you have to condemn nation Y for the same thing.

In the SC, I think the mods' role is to de-clutter the proposals list of things that do nothing, that can be dealt with in another way, or that are the waste-of-space individual feuding that the original tit-for-tats were.


My reading of this may not be the correct one, but I'd always read that along the lines of the "other substance" being "you have to just say why what this did is condemnable," not that it necessarily needs material sourced from a different incident. I.E. "condemn x because they wrote y" = not kosher, but "condemn x because y resolution contains faked evidence, reason 2, reason 3" = iffy but kosher, because it has substance.

I stand to be corrected there, but think this is worth at least taking a closer look at.






Ransium wrote:Don't exceed a 5000-character limit to proposals.

Keep your proposals under 5000 characters not words.


Nitpicking - I get that you've got a format to keep, but this one comes across as a little harsh/apt to make the reader question "What, why?" At the least, the expanded description should just mention that this is a hardcoded technical limit - the submission field will not accept entries over 5k chars, so to be able to physically submit your proposal, it must meet this requirement.






Ransium wrote:IMO what is a joke proposal and symbolic only proposal should not be moderation decisions. If the delegates choose to approve such proposals that's their call.


This is something that needs more discussion, I think. While I myself have gotten a "joke" proposal (Condemn EWS by Harenhime, for which I campaigned for both sides) to vote, it was allowed, more or less, because the clauses were both serious, legal, and based on real events. I'm glad that was allowed to be decided by delegates, as well as, for example, condemning a region for posting ugly raid WFE's. That said, I also see value in the mods having a rule that allows them to potentially keep a check on a full on run on full-on satire that gets submitted rather than just laughed at here. Perhaps rewording is better than removal for this rule?






Ransium wrote:I know Ard said branding is legal in the SC in the compendium, but I never really understood what he meant by that, as everything I would consider branding is basically not legal. I've changed and clarified what comprises a tit-for-tat violation and when acrostics are legal.


Can't speak to branding, but I'd make the acrostics bit somewhat more prominent if possible. This is something that comes up not infrequently. Conversely, might be worth noting that other unconventional formats *can* be legal...unless we're no longer allowing SC haikus? :P






Ransium wrote:I've removed a lot of spelling out of what things are legal, as I feel like often spelling out what's not legal and in most cases simply implying everything else is legal leads to a much less verbose ruleset. I've removed a bunch of stuff in compendium that is already covered in the OSRS (it is after all the one stop). I may have made some modification on the always hazy rule 4 legality line, but I tried to spell out my understanding of where moderation is currently at.


Mostly on "removing" - I have an opinion on general formatting. For context, this work does not really overlap with "guide to the security council," but does fit between "rules for the security council" and "Compendium of Mod Rulings & General Advice within the SC." If we're happy with the current number of pins, I'd suggest that this not *replace* both of the latter. You could spoil the plain SC rules 1-4 at the top for OG reference, and then you *should* still link the Compendium (and maybe leave it pinned, though I'm not dead set on that) for *deeper* reference of rulings and the thought process behind them (which can be important for understanding them). This is a far better quick start guide than just rules 1-4 without being too long, but the full compendium still has relevance.
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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:24 pm

To expand on my criticism of your phrasing of "rule 3," rule 2c states:

"(c) Don't use proposals to raise issues that should be dealt with elsewhere, such as rules violations and technical suggestions."

- This seems to be how it's long been interpreted. SC resolutions are not for reporting someone. However, there's never been any prohibition before on *mentioning* that someone has broken the rules, as long as it meets the rest of the SC rules.






Bonus comment: This may not be easy on you, but it would probably be really good to use a totally different ...ordering system, per se. Maybe even just bullets. Even if you aim to totally replace rules 1-4 with this, you're at least adding a second set of numbered rules. That's asking for chaos among SC regulars (sometimes over a decade+), not to mention adding massive confusion to reading/referencing old rulings. SC rulings have long referenced numbered rules - 2(b) violation, 4(c) violation - which has established a precedence you'd be overwriting. This is not the OSRS, where it's just been "the trolling rule" forever, for better or worse. In other words, after a decade+ of 4 numbered rules, also/now having 12 numbered rules is like asking the world to use both metric and imperial but without any unit labels.
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
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Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

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Morover
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Postby Morover » Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:34 pm

Ransium wrote:Resolutions can either commends, condemns, or liberates a single target, or repeals an existing resolution; they can't do anything else.

Perhaps it's just a difference in dialect, but I feel like it should either be:

"Resolutions can either commend, condemn, liberate a single target, or repeal an existing resolution; they can't do anything else."

or

"A resolution either commends, condemns, liberates a single target, or repeals an existing resolution; they can't do anything else."
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:41 pm

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Ransium wrote:Don't try to commend/condemn a player due exclusively to a single World Assembly resolution they passed or attempted to pass.

Although a target's past WA proposal authorship or attempted authorship are valid reasons for a commendation/condemnation, a commendation/condemnation cannot be based mostly or entirely on a single proposal.


I'm personally reading this as making the "tit for tat" rule perhaps stricter, and at least murkier. The current ruling states -

Proposals which are solely 'tit-for-tat' proposals (ie Condemns Nation X for Condemning Nation Y) will be deleted. However, if they have other substance to them besides the 'tit-for-tat' argument, they are unlikely to be deleted:

Ardchoille wrote:For the reasons above, Sedge, I'm very reluctant to invoke "tit for tat" against any half-way substantive proposal. I used it on a series of "if you condemn me, I'll condemn you. And your dog, and your aunt, and your aunt's dog" proposals, but I don't think mods should interfere in SC proposals much beyond that. In the GA we have to hold proposals to standards that allow new laws to interact with old, but each SC proposal is, in a sense, a one-off: if you condemn nation X, that doesn't mean that you have to condemn nation Y for the same thing.

In the SC, I think the mods' role is to de-clutter the proposals list of things that do nothing, that can be dealt with in another way, or that are the waste-of-space individual feuding that the original tit-for-tats were.


My reading of this may not be the correct one, but I'd always read that along the lines of the "other substance" being "you have to just say why what this did is condemnable," not that it necessarily needs material sourced from a different incident. I.E. "condemn x because they wrote y" = not kosher, but "condemn x because y resolution contains faked evidence, reason 2, reason 3" = iffy but kosher, because it has substance.

I stand to be corrected there, but think this is worth at least taking a closer look at.

Given that proposals to Condemn Consular have presently been ruled illegal despite citing faked evidence, I believe the current standard is that 'tit-for-tat' means proposals related solely to a single proposal, even if parts aren't specifically from a proposal. In other words, anything based on authoring of a single proposal and adjacent things gets hit by 'tit-for-tat' going by current rulings.
Mostly on "removing" - I have an opinion on general formatting. For context, this work does not really overlap with "guide to the security council," but does fit between "rules for the security council" and "Compendium of Mod Rulings & General Advice within the SC." If we're happy with the current number of pins, I'd suggest that this not *replace* both of the latter. You could spoil the plain SC rules 1-4 at the top for OG reference, and then you *should* still link the Compendium (and maybe leave it pinned, though I'm not dead set on that) for *deeper* reference of rulings and the thought process behind them (which can be important for understanding them). This is a far better quick start guide than just rules 1-4 without being too long, but the full compendium still has relevance.

I have to agree that at least linking the old stuff would be good, for history reasons at least.

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Postby Jakker » Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:55 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:
Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
I'm personally reading this as making the "tit for tat" rule perhaps stricter, and at least murkier. The current ruling states -

Proposals which are solely 'tit-for-tat' proposals (ie Condemns Nation X for Condemning Nation Y) will be deleted. However, if they have other substance to them besides the 'tit-for-tat' argument, they are unlikely to be deleted:


My reading of this may not be the correct one, but I'd always read that along the lines of the "other substance" being "you have to just say why what this did is condemnable," not that it necessarily needs material sourced from a different incident. I.E. "condemn x because they wrote y" = not kosher, but "condemn x because y resolution contains faked evidence, reason 2, reason 3" = iffy but kosher, because it has substance.

I stand to be corrected there, but think this is worth at least taking a closer look at.

Given that proposals to Condemn Consular have presently been ruled illegal despite citing faked evidence, I believe the current standard is that 'tit-for-tat' means proposals related solely to a single proposal, even if parts aren't specifically from a proposal. In other words, anything based on authoring of a single proposal and adjacent things gets hit by 'tit-for-tat' going by current rulings.


I read the rule as you cannot condemn someone for condemning you or condemning a region for personal reasons like something they did to you in-game. However, as Souls said, if there is more substance to the proposal explaining why what happened was condemnable, then it should be fine. As for the related to one proposal or one action, I also don't see a huge issue with that either unless it is simply for writing the proposal. Players were trying to condemn Consular not because he tried to condemn LKE, but because he lied about evidence. That to me should probably be fine, which may go against how other moderators see it.
Last edited by Jakker on Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Eumaeus » Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:58 pm

Ransium wrote:The 12 Rules of the Security Council
Don't violate the One Stop Rule Shop in a proposal (note in particular the rules regarding plagiarism).

I know I already made you replace all the "thou shall not"s, but I feel like using a contraction in a ruleset blunts their impact. "Don't" sounds like a suggestion, "Do not" sounds like a command. I feel like the plagiarism note should be in parentheses. Also, aside from the fact that whatever spellcheck NS uses doesn't recognize "plagiarization" as a word (it totally is), the One Stop Rule Shop uses the word "plagiarism" under its copyright section.
Don't commend/condemn members of the site staff for their actions performed as staff (this applies to Moderators, Administrators, Issues Editors, Roleplay Mentors, and GenSec).

Having a set of parentheses in the middle of the sentence kind of interrupted its flow; it kind introduces and completes an idea (who counts as site staff) in between introducing and finishing another idea (don't comdemnd site staff).
Don't state or imply that players violated site rules or performed real-life illegal actions.
Provide unique and relevant arguments for your proposal.
Provide an operative clause stating clearly what the proposal does.
Resolutions can either commend, condemn, or liberate a single target, or repeal an existing resolution; they cannot do anything else.

Minutiae: there's some extra "s"s tacked on a few words here; another contraction.
Important: I think Rules 5 and 6 are intrinsically connected but aren't explicitly connected: there is nothing in Rule 5 indicating that the operative clause has to line up with the correct proposal type. Also, (this is an actual mod-rulingesque comment so I'll defer to your opinion) I think I would prefer "they cannot perform any other actions" over "they can't do anything else". The SC can express collective emotions, make arguments, and a host of other verbs to may constitute "doing" something; it just can't perform another action.
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Write from the perspective of the World Assembly. Don't try to sneak yourself or organization into the proposal.
Don't try to commend/condemn a player due exclusively to a single World Assembly resolution they passed or attempted to pass.

I can't decide between "Can I commend myself for writing three Resolutions?" or "I can still Liberate them though, right?" so I'll just post both.

Should "resolution" be capitalized?


I'm hella tired, and the easy section is taking forever, so I'm going to save my thoughts on the rest of it until sometime later this week. I think it's pretty good so far. It'll make pointing out rule violations (and on your end ruling on them) a total bitch for a couple months, but I've always found the separation of the SC rules and the Mod Compendium to be counterproductive and I'm glad someone is looking into fixing it.
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Postby Ransium » Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:05 pm

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:Some first-read notes from me-

Ransium wrote:Don't state or imply that players violated site rules or performed real-life illegal actions.

If someone violates site rules, please file a GHR. Note that words that can sometimes be applied to two nations interactions in the real world, especially "trolling" are likely to be interpreted as a violation of this rule.

If someone has committed a real-world crime please contact the relevant authorities.


I think the first part of this is overkill. While I get what you're going for, there's more than one perfectly legal resolution on record that refers to a nation or region's history of breaking game rules, phrased in the typical SC manner. Consider as examples: Liberate Iran invokes the founder's WA ejection; Repeal Condemn The Black Riders invokes their scripting bans and series of DEATs/DoS.

For that matter, you're apt to confuse newcomers with the second part - language such as "ethnic cleansing," "hate speech," and even "promoting fascism" represent "real life illegal actions" (in some cases country-dependant), and are commonplace in the world of a political sim. And in some cases, like fascist regalia, what the subject is doing *may actually be illegal in their home country*. Again, I get the intention of all this, but I'm not sure at present it's constructive to actually helping newcomers understand the SC.


I don't have a problem making a change but I don't quite know what you're looking for here. Could you provide me with a first cut of a rewrite?


Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Ransium wrote:Don't exceed a 5000-character limit to proposals.

Keep your proposals under 5000 characters not words.


Nitpicking - I get that you've got a format to keep, but this one comes across as a little harsh/apt to make the reader question "What, why?" At the least, the expanded description should just mention that this is a hardcoded technical limit - the submission field will not accept entries over 5k chars, so to be able to physically submit your proposal, it must meet this requirement.


Sure, done.

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Ransium wrote:IMO what is a joke proposal and symbolic only proposal should not be moderation decisions. If the delegates choose to approve such proposals that's their call.


This is something that needs more discussion, I think. While I myself have gotten a "joke" proposal (Condemn EWS by Harenhime, for which I campaigned for both sides) to vote, it was allowed, more or less, because the clauses were both serious, legal, and based on real events. I'm glad that was allowed to be decided by delegates, as well as, for example, condemning a region for posting ugly raid WFE's. That said, I also see value in the mods having a rule that allows them to potentially keep a check on a full on run on full-on satire that gets submitted rather than just laughed at here. Perhaps rewording is better than removal for this rule?


Keep in mind the rules are always fluid and if it becomes epidemic we can always revisit it. That said, the duration of the current system suggests this would be a good time to get it right. If you have a suggestion for a joke proposal rule I'm happy to at least discuss it. I just can't think of a way from objectively discerning the wheat from the chaff, and I don't want to be making subjective calls as to what is too much of a joke.


Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:Can't speak to branding, but I'd make the acrostics bit somewhat more prominent if possible. This is something that comes up not infrequently. Conversely, might be worth noting that other unconventional formats *can* be legal...unless we're no longer allowing SC haikus? :P


Okay adjustments made.




Nohbdy and Morover I've made adjustments based on your comments. Thanks for those.




Re what to do with the old ruleset: My preference would be to de-sticky both but link to both in the new ruleset. I would strongly like mods to start using the new numbering system when this post is stickied and ditch the old one. Yes, the old system has been used for a decade and we're all familiar with it, but keeping a numbering system from an old ruleset while switching to a new one seems to add way more confusion. We'll all learn the new numbering system in time and it will be much clearer that way and take less institutional knowledge, which is a large part of why I'm trying to make this guide in the first place. I agree the compendium has good stuff in it that this would not have, but it'll be way more confusing once the rules they are referencing have changed. I think an easily accessed link at the bottom of the new ruleset would be sufficient, although I'm willing to discuss this.




It's possible that our interpretation of tit-for-tat was harsher than what it should have been in the Consular response resolutions. I think a clear codification of the rule outside of being buried deep in the compendium would help unify interpretations of it. If one of you would like to write how you would like rule 11 and it's explanation to read I'm happy to discuss it.
Last edited by Ransium on Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Bears Armed » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:02 am

Ransium wrote:
Flanderlion wrote:Does the 5000 include or exclude space's and tags?


As others have said, it's a technical restriction. Not sure the answer TBH.
Presuming that this is the same coding that applies to GA proposals, the 5000 includes spaces (including line breaks)... and, by the way, Microsoft Word's checker works slightly differently from the game's so if you check the length using that then you actually need to aim at a slightly lower figure (probably by around 50-70 characters if your draft is long enough to be close to the limit) instead. I think that formatting code isn't counted, but can't remember where I saw this point officially clarified.
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:39 am

I’m not going into great detail at the moment as I’ve just got back from holiday and am busy at home.

However, overall this looks to be a good change. My only real first look criticism is one Souls has brought up about numbering. It is going to be tricky to reference rules violations from the past to the proposed one to twelve in the OP.

I will try and produce a more detailed response later.
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Postby Yokiria » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:54 pm

Ransium wrote:Do not state or imply that players violated site rules or performed real-life illegal actions.


Ransium wrote:If someone violates site rules, please file a GHR. Note that words that can sometimes be applied to two nations interactions in the real world, especially "trolling" are likely to be interpreted as a violation of this rule.

If someone has committed a real-world crime please contact the relevant authorities.


This troubles me. The way I read this, the Security Council could recognize a player with a Commendation or Condemnation, that player could have unspeakable things revealed about them, and those seeking the repeal of the Commendation/Condemnation would be forced to argue against the player's in-game legal actions when those actions could be bulletproof. I word this like a hypothetical scenario, but I could list a specific example of where this rule would have severely impaired, if not entirely removed, the ability of the Security Council and the game community to remove a monument to a predator. The reason I haven't is that I would prefer not to list that example unless I absolutely have to.

In the future, this rule as written will likely force the Security Council into keeping written monuments to very sick individuals because their legal in-game actions are the only way to repeal them. A solution, I believe, would be to word the rule with more nuance regarding implications of real-life illegal actions / rules violations, rather than having total illegality on any implications of such.
Last edited by Yokiria on Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Ransium » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:11 pm

Yokiria wrote:
Ransium wrote:Do not state or imply that players violated site rules or performed real-life illegal actions.


Ransium wrote:If someone violates site rules, please file a GHR. Note that words that can sometimes be applied to two nations interactions in the real world, especially "trolling" are likely to be interpreted as a violation of this rule.

If someone has committed a real-world crime please contact the relevant authorities.


This troubles me. The way I read this, the Security Council could recognize a player with a Commendation or Condemnation, that player could have unspeakable things revealed about them, and those seeking the repeal of the Commendation/Condemnation would be forced to argue against the player's in-game legal actions when those actions could be bulletproof. I word this like a hypothetical scenario, but I could list a specific example of where this rule would have severely impaired, if not entirely removed, the ability of the Security Council and the game community to remove a monument to a predator. The reason I haven't is that I would prefer not to list that example unless I absolutely have to.

In the future, this rule as written will likely force the Security Council into keeping written monuments to very sick individuals because their legal in-game actions are the only way to repeal them. A solution, I believe, would be to word the rule with more nuance regarding implications of real-life illegal actions / rules violations, rather than having total illegality on any implications of such.


I’m happy to alter that section (Souls wanted it changed too), but It would be really helpful if I could get a first cut suggestion as to how it should read from someone.
Last edited by Ransium on Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kuriko
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Postby Kuriko » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:30 pm

Popping in real quick, just want to say I think this is a step up over what we have now. I'll think over some suggested edits but it may be awhile before I can come up with good ideas.
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Postby Topid » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:49 pm

Popping in to say I agree with Souls that Rule 3 is a big change over where we are now that shouldn't be made without a lot of thought.

3. Do not state or imply that players violated site rules or performed real-life illegal actions.

My reading of this would lead me to believe that the recent condemnation attempt at LKE would be come illegal, because it mentioned Bob (without naming him) violating recruitment and/or scripting rules to recruit for LKE. I opposed the resolution because of this line, but that was because I didn't think LKE had anything to do with Bob's actions. If that were something LKE had done on purpose or known about, that seems relevant to a possible gameplay centered condemn of the region.

My own (now self-repealed) resolution to Condemn Unknown would not be possible either, no? That resolution was targeted at a region that planted a spy in another region, then failed to ban the spy when the spy destroyed the forum he was undercover in. The region was condemned for failing to ban its agent, but that seems hardly possible if you can't talk about what the agent did (an illegal act).

This seems to create especially awkward situations when recognized players/regions later are revealed to have done "something" and the community thus wants to take it away - especially if "something" is a violation of Gameplay rules. For instance the repeal of Condemn TBR and later Condemn DEN (though less so, appears only marginally referenced the mod deleting in one line).

We don't want resolutions about OOC misconduct, flaming, etc. But some rules violations - especially rules relating to gameplay like scripting, recruiting, more than one WA nation, etc seem to become relevant when someone has been recognized for being a good gameplayer. Secondly, forum destruction has frequently been addressed in C&C as a way to brand a community for either engaging in it, or failing to act in some way that they should have. In those cases, the current rule seems better. Don't go to the SC first, a GHR should be filed and moderation issues should be dealt with there. But any mod actions are publicly known that relate to Gameplay are often fair game to be referenced in proposals.
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Postby Ransium » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:53 am

As I’ve made clear several times I’m happy to have that section re-written but someone creating a draft would help me enormously. If you’re waiting for me to do it the earliest it’ll possibly get done is not this weekend but next, and maybe even longer.

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Postby Aclion » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:17 am

3. Do not use the security counsel as an alternative to moderation.

The security counsel is not the place to levy accusations of out of game misconduct. If someone violates site rules, please file a GHR. If someone has committed a real-world crime please contact the relevant authorities. SC resolutions should never be used to address real world crimes. SC resolutions may be used to address rule breaking only if that rule breaking is relevant to gameplay[alternatively this could also say "only if that rule-breaking enabled activities relevant to IC international affairs"](IE: WA cheating, script violations) and that rule breaking has already been addressed by moderation. Also, beware of rule 9.
Best I could come up with. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:35 am

I like what I'm seeing, and the feedback has been very helpful. Rewriting rule sets is hard - I've done GA rules and the original OSRS as well as one or two revisions - so I know how much effort this takes. This is well done, Ransium, and I'm already using it. Keep coming with the feedback, players!
Last edited by Frisbeeteria on Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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