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by Dumb Ideologies » Mon May 20, 2019 1:40 am
by Iciaros » Mon May 20, 2019 2:57 am
Dumb Ideologies wrote:When you've got the already-in-circulation "they" if you don't want he or she, it takes a certain kind of pretentious vanity and entitlement to believe that everyone you meet should learn a new set of pronouns for you specifically because you're so unique and different.
When your decisions are seemingly calculated to draw as much attention as possible when you don't need to then you're probably being an attention-seeker. Can't think of a nicer way to put it.
by Dumb Ideologies » Mon May 20, 2019 3:29 am
Iciaros wrote:Dumb Ideologies wrote:When you've got the already-in-circulation "they" if you don't want he or she, it takes a certain kind of pretentious vanity and entitlement to believe that everyone you meet should learn a new set of pronouns for you specifically because you're so unique and different.
When your decisions are seemingly calculated to draw as much attention as possible when you don't need to then you're probably being an attention-seeker. Can't think of a nicer way to put it.
I do agree that if you're picking a zany pronoun just to stand out, it's probably attention-seeking, but I think it's possible that some people pick them because they genuinely think it most accurately reflects their identity. Words and labels mean different things to everyone, after all. In those situations I would hesitate to call them attention-seekers.
by Iciaros » Mon May 20, 2019 4:12 am
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
I'm unsure what xe and others bring to the table descriptively or what extra information they impart identity-wise than "they".
A neopronoun might "feel nicer" but that meaning is entirely personal and digging your heels in for that rather than a term that performs the same or a virtually indistinguishable role and that people will much more easily be able to get their heads around starts setting off a lot of alarm bells about this being a needlessly difficult person who I'd rather dissociate from than stick my neck out for.
by Dumb Ideologies » Mon May 20, 2019 4:13 am
Iciaros wrote:Dumb Ideologies wrote:
I'm unsure what xe and others bring to the table descriptively or what extra information they impart identity-wise than "they".
A neopronoun might "feel nicer" but that meaning is entirely personal and digging your heels in for that rather than a term that performs the same or a virtually indistinguishable role and that people will much more easily be able to get their heads around starts setting off a lot of alarm bells about this being a needlessly difficult person who I'd rather dissociate from than stick my neck out for.
I mean, I'm sure what it means to a particular person could vary, and maybe for all we know there are people out there who feel as strongly about it as we do about being addressed by our correct basic pronouns. Nonetheless, yeah, rabidly insisting on everyone taking the time to fully understand and then persistently and unerringly your neopronoun is a bit rude. But if whoever it is keeps it to, like, their small close group of friends who are happy to accommodate them, then who am I to judge?
by Iciaros » Mon May 20, 2019 4:29 am
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
This is fair.
by The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon May 20, 2019 5:16 am
Iciaros wrote:Dumb Ideologies wrote:
This is fair.
The approval of the always-correct DI is all I could wish for. *initiates reverent worship*
On a side note, I find it interesting that there are more genderfluid people in the thread than trans men. I remember the conversation we had a while back on the prevalence of FtM versus MtF, and how trans women were more likely to use this site compared to trans men, but the number of trans men being smaller than the genderfluid group is a little surprising to me. Is the trans community made up of more genderfluid people than I thought, or is this just a 'representation on Nationstates doesn't properly reflect real-world numbers' thing? (Or both?)
by Auzkhia » Mon May 20, 2019 7:36 am
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Iciaros wrote:
The approval of the always-correct DI is all I could wish for. *initiates reverent worship*
On a side note, I find it interesting that there are more genderfluid people in the thread than trans men. I remember the conversation we had a while back on the prevalence of FtM versus MtF, and how trans women were more likely to use this site compared to trans men, but the number of trans men being smaller than the genderfluid group is a little surprising to me. Is the trans community made up of more genderfluid people than I thought, or is this just a 'representation on Nationstates doesn't properly reflect real-world numbers' thing? (Or both?)
Perhaps NSG has a feminizing effect. The opposite of what FTMs want.
by Grenartia » Mon May 20, 2019 7:45 am
Cappuccina wrote:Hediacrana wrote:As someone who is nonbinary and over 30 years old, I found this little video 'Not just a phase' about 30+ nonbinary people worth watching.
I don't blame people for questioning "non-binary" and people claiming it, tbh. There's a prevalence of transtrenders these days, not to mention it's a rather nebulous concept.
by Hediacrana » Mon May 20, 2019 8:04 am
Grenartia wrote:Cappuccina wrote:
I don't blame people for questioning "non-binary" and people claiming it, tbh. There's a prevalence of transtrenders these days, not to mention it's a rather nebulous concept.
Ah, yes, so "trendy", I decided to live in fear of getting outted to my family for the last 7 fucking years. All for the...trend...?
Remind me how this stupid bullshit is supposed to work? What's the alleged payoff here?
by Grenartia » Mon May 20, 2019 8:21 am
Proctopeo wrote:Cappuccina wrote:
I don't blame people for questioning "non-binary" and people claiming it, tbh. There's a prevalence of transtrenders these days, not to mention it's a rather nebulous concept.
Chances of trending depend on age and the absurdity of the claimed gender.
If they're less than about 25, chances are quite high regardless of the other factor (especially if they're active in an LGBT group, those places are... weird, to put it kindly),
and anywhere above 25, if it's absurd they likely haven't matured past 25, much less 12, so they're either trending or too childish to qualify for "trending".
Though in my experience, most "non-binary" people I've met online fall into the categories best described as "both" or "none", but I've met quite a few who go much beyond this "slightly weird but hey I can work with it" range.
But this is just my tree fiddy.
Cekoviu wrote:Proctopeo wrote:Chances of trending depend on age and the absurdity of the claimed gender.
If they're less than about 25, chances are quite high regardless of the other factor (especially if they're active in an LGBT group, those places are... weird, to put it kindly), and anywhere above 25, if it's absurd they likely haven't matured past 25, much less 12, so they're either trending or too childish to qualify for "trending".
Though in my experience, most "non-binary" people I've met online fall into the categories best described as "both" or "none", but I've met quite a few who go much beyond this "slightly weird but hey I can work with it" range.
But this is just my tree fiddy.
Have you actually spent any amount of time in LGBT groups and spaces? Because I have (nearly 2 years as an active member, including being on the hiring committee for staff), and they're not full of people faking it, nor are they particularly different from any other support organization. See the link in my signature.
Auzkhia wrote:Luminesa wrote:> “Tucute”
> Transmedicalists
...My head hurts. Sorry. I’ve never heard either of these terms in my life.
Transmedicalists, or also commonly called truscum, are people claim that being trans is a medical condition that requires gender dysphoria and that you're only valid if you fully medically transition. They call other trans people trenders if they don't have dysphoria or don't want to have SRS. They're gatekeepers. Tucute, I believe is them mocking them as it is short for "too cute to be cis" and thinking that there are people who fake being trans for style points or something.
I believe this is all unnecessary gatekeeping and that there is no one true path of being trans.
It also validates cis ignorance and gives transphobes more ammunition.
How?
More gatekeeping hurts the trans community.
Gatekeeping is a necessary action to ensure order, stability, and consistency.
Look at what a mess feminism became due to people waiting to gatekeep until it was too late to do anything: they got, among many other things, TERFs from not doing so.
Even if "trenders" were real, one person getting through and then having to detranisition would be better than people waiting years for HRT or surgeries and needing two letters of recommendation from (usually cis) psychologists to "prove" that they are dysphoric enough to get treatment.
A balanced approach is best in this case.Call me a "tucute" (something transmedicalists call their detractors),
Actually, it's what anti-transmedicalists (specifically, one clique of them, but the term has since broadened) call themselves.
"Truscum" comes from the same source, and is a term broadly used by anti-transmedicalists to refer to transmedicalists in a derogatory way.
Cappuccina wrote:Proctopeo wrote:Literally not.
How?
Gatekeeping is a necessary action to ensure order, stability, and consistency. Look at what a mess feminism became due to people waiting to gatekeep until it was too late to do anything: they got, among many other things, TERFs from not doing so.
A balanced approach is best in this case.
Actually, it's what anti-transmedicalists (specifically, one clique of them, but the term has since broadened) call themselves. "Truscum" comes from the same source, and is a term broadly used by anti-transmedicalists to refer to transmedicalists in a derogatory way.
Galaxy brain stuff right here. Circular definitions, unlike circular objects, get you nowhere but your starting point, you know.
How? You ask? Because, unless you're all inclusive, you're literally transphobic...gotta validate everything to the point where nothing means anything.
Hediacrana wrote:Proctopeo wrote:They indeed are
Though "ill-informed" and "unoriginal" are very open to be contested here, since all my "talking points" are formed from my own experiences.
I think you're upset that I'm not marching in tune more than anything else tbqh
As it happens, I wasn't talking about you or your posts; I was talking about Cappu's. That said, it does appear that Cekoviu's evaluation of your argument is spot on.
Regarding your honest attempt at emotional diagnostics, you'll be happy to know that my well-being is not determined by the marching habits of strangers on the internet.Auzkhia wrote:I saw that video posted on twitter the other day. Jeffrey Marsh is in it and they are one of my favorite nb celebrities.
It has lots of interesting folks who I'd like to learn more about. Kate Bornstein, too.
Say, talking about nb celebrities; maybe favorite trans celebrities and historic figures would be an interesting new poll topic? Grenartia?
Iciaros wrote:Proctopeo wrote:
Gatekeeping is a necessary action to ensure order, stability, and consistency. Look at what a mess feminism became due to people waiting to gatekeep until it was too late to do anything: they got, among many other things, TERFs from not doing so.
Personally, I would disagree at least partially, mainly in terms of the differences between feminism and transgenderism. Gatekeeping could be construed as necessary to prevent a movement from being co-opted by splinter groups advocating for a warped or extreme version of the movement's core goals and ideals. That would make it applicable to feminism. Transgenderism, not so much, because it's not a movement in the same way feminism is. Feminism sought to change the world, whereas transgenderism merely seeks to give a name to an existing state of affairs. Gatekeeping could still be relevant here, in the sense of ensuring that transgenderism is used to describe the correct state of affairs, but the nature of being transgender is that of an individual experience, as opposed to a social movement, and therefore attempting to perfectly define its precise contours is essentially impossible. We may be best served by leaving the gatekeeping to basically the very barebones essence of transgenderism (identifying with something other than one's biological gender) and acknowledging the nature of being transgender as individual and varied, unlike a social movement which must necessarily unite its members behind a commonly defined cause.
That's my opinion, at least. I also concur with the others above me that if anyone ought to be doing gatekeeping in any case, it should be those who are intimately familiar with at least one experience of being transgender. At least that way one could make more informed decisions about said gatekeeping.
Hediacrana wrote:Grenartia wrote:
Ah, yes, so "trendy", I decided to live in fear of getting outted to my family for the last 7 fucking years. All for the...trend...?
Remind me how this stupid bullshit is supposed to work? What's the alleged payoff here?
Precisely this.
I still have to meet a transtrender, but I've met no shortage of people wanting to complain about them whenever actual nonbinary people and their actual concerns come up. What happened when I shared that video, which features seven people talking about their real experiences over the span of decades, was illustrative; before one could have actually had time to watch the whole thing if one had started to watch it as soon as I posted, the talk of transtrenders came in. Complaining about fictional people is just that much more engaging than listening to real ones, I guess.
by Auzkhia » Mon May 20, 2019 8:38 am
Grenartia wrote:Cappuccina wrote:
I don't blame people for questioning "non-binary" and people claiming it, tbh. There's a prevalence of transtrenders these days, not to mention it's a rather nebulous concept.
Ah, yes, so "trendy", I decided to live in fear of getting outted to my family for the last 7 fucking years. All for the...trend...?
Remind me how this stupid bullshit is supposed to work? What's the alleged payoff here?
by Cekoviu » Mon May 20, 2019 8:41 am
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Iciaros wrote:
I do agree that if you're picking a zany pronoun just to stand out, it's probably attention-seeking, but I think it's possible that some people pick them because they genuinely think it most accurately reflects their identity. Words and labels mean different things to everyone, after all. In those situations I would hesitate to call them attention-seekers.
I'm unsure what xe and others bring to the table descriptively or what extra information they impart identity-wise than "they".
A neopronoun might "feel nicer" but that meaning is entirely personal and digging your heels in for that rather than a term that performs the same or a virtually indistinguishable role and that people will much more easily be able to get their heads around starts setting off a lot of alarm bells about this being a needlessly difficult person who I'd rather dissociate from than stick my neck out for.
by Auzkhia » Mon May 20, 2019 8:44 am
Cekoviu wrote:Dumb Ideologies wrote:
I'm unsure what xe and others bring to the table descriptively or what extra information they impart identity-wise than "they".
A neopronoun might "feel nicer" but that meaning is entirely personal and digging your heels in for that rather than a term that performs the same or a virtually indistinguishable role and that people will much more easily be able to get their heads around starts setting off a lot of alarm bells about this being a needlessly difficult person who I'd rather dissociate from than stick my neck out for.
I believe the general reason for neopronoun usage is that "they" is kind of repurposed from its original meaning, so neopronoun users are trying to forge a unique identity rather than leeching off of a plural pronoun. I have mixed feelings on whether this is necessary, but I wouldn't say it's wholly pointless.
by Cekoviu » Mon May 20, 2019 8:48 am
Auzkhia wrote:Cekoviu wrote:I believe the general reason for neopronoun usage is that "they" is kind of repurposed from its original meaning, so neopronoun users are trying to forge a unique identity rather than leeching off of a plural pronoun. I have mixed feelings on whether this is necessary, but I wouldn't say it's wholly pointless.
Singular they has been around for a while. I'd just let people pick their own pronouns, Xe isn't doing any harm, nor hir, shi, or ze. Like I said, it's more essential to have them in other languages like German or French.
by Hediacrana » Mon May 20, 2019 8:57 am
Grenartia wrote:Hediacrana wrote:It has lots of interesting folks who I'd like to learn more about. Kate Bornstein, too.
Say, talking about nb celebrities; maybe favorite trans celebrities and historic figures would be an interesting new poll topic? Grenartia?
Well, I asked for a new poll idea a few days ago, but got no response, so you're the clear winner here.
I don't think I could narrow down the list to 10 options, so everyone feel free to make suggestions.
Auzkhia wrote:Yes, there is so much transphobia, I still butt heads with my parents over getting misgendered even though they are nominally accepting and learning, it gets a bit tiring to be teaching people who act like little children about gender, and I'm a recent college graduate looking for a full time job, and I am statistically more likely to be unemployed than a cis equivalent.
Also, trans people still get harassed and murdered especially black trans women like Muhlaysia Booker in Texas.
by Proctopeo » Mon May 20, 2019 9:02 am
Grenartia wrote:Proctopeo wrote:Chances of trending depend on age and the absurdity of the claimed gender.
If they're less than about 25, chances are quite high regardless of the other factor (especially if they're active in an LGBT group, those places are... weird, to put it kindly),
Thank you, for insulting several people here, including myself, with your nonsensical generalizations.
and anywhere above 25, if it's absurd they likely haven't matured past 25, much less 12, so they're either trending or too childish to qualify for "trending".
Though in my experience, most "non-binary" people I've met online fall into the categories best described as "both" or "none", but I've met quite a few who go much beyond this "slightly weird but hey I can work with it" range.
But this is just my tree fiddy.
I can't even comprehend that second to last sentence, and I honestly wouldn't pay $0.35 for that post as a whole, much less $3.50
Auzkhia wrote:Transmedicalists, or also commonly called truscum, are people claim that being trans is a medical condition that requires gender dysphoria and that you're only valid if you fully medically transition. They call other trans people trenders if they don't have dysphoria or don't want to have SRS. They're gatekeepers. Tucute, I believe is them mocking them as it is short for "too cute to be cis" and thinking that there are people who fake being trans for style points or something.
I believe this is all unnecessary gatekeeping and that there is no one true path of being trans.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
For the record, I can't see transmeds (to use the polite term) as anything other than quislings for TERFs.
How?
Because as the name fucking implies, it tells the audience that being trans is a "trend", and reduces our existence to little more than a fad like pet rocks. This should be obvious to you.
Gatekeeping is a necessary action to ensure order, stability, and consistency.
As a self-professed "libertarian", would you say intrusive government spying programs are "necessary actions" to "ensure order, stability, and consistency"? Yes or no only.
Look at what a mess feminism became due to people waiting to gatekeep until it was too late to do anything: they got, among many other things, TERFs from not doing so.
What the fuck are you even on about here?
A balanced approach is best in this case.
Actually, it's what anti-transmedicalists (specifically, one clique of them, but the term has since broadened) call themselves.
No, we don't.
"Truscum" comes from the same source, and is a term broadly used by anti-transmedicalists to refer to transmedicalists in a derogatory way.
Finally, you got something right.
Auzkhia wrote:Cekoviu wrote:I believe the general reason for neopronoun usage is that "they" is kind of repurposed from its original meaning, so neopronoun users are trying to forge a unique identity rather than leeching off of a plural pronoun. I have mixed feelings on whether this is necessary, but I wouldn't say it's wholly pointless.
Singular they has been around for a while. I'd just let people pick their own pronouns, Xe isn't doing any harm, nor hir, shi, or ze. Like I said, it's more essential to have them in other languages like German or French.
Auzkhia wrote:TERFs collaborate with anti-feminists all the time
by Evil Dictators Happyland » Mon May 20, 2019 9:04 am
Auzkhia wrote:Cekoviu wrote:I believe the general reason for neopronoun usage is that "they" is kind of repurposed from its original meaning, so neopronoun users are trying to forge a unique identity rather than leeching off of a plural pronoun. I have mixed feelings on whether this is necessary, but I wouldn't say it's wholly pointless.
Singular they has been around for a while. I'd just let people pick their own pronouns, Xe isn't doing any harm, nor hir, shi, or ze. Like I said, it's more essential to have them in other languages like German or French.
by Cappuccina » Mon May 20, 2019 9:26 am
Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:Auzkhia wrote:Singular they has been around for a while. I'd just let people pick their own pronouns, Xe isn't doing any harm, nor hir, shi, or ze. Like I said, it's more essential to have them in other languages like German or French.
I think that the issue here comes from the people who insist on "xe" and the like for seemingly no reason other than to annoy those around them.
Granted, I've never met such a person and I'm not entirely convinced that they exist, but at the same time, I don't think that one should declare that absolutely nobody does it, because if there's even a single example of someone who does, then what you said is false. Broad, sweeping generalizations are usually a bad idea, since there's almost certainly going to be some troll who wanders up from under his bridge just to tell you that you're wrong.
That being said, if someone asks you to refer to them using a different word, then you shouldn't deliberately choose not to whether or not you think they're being serious. Accidentally misgendering someone is kind of rude but not necessarily bad (it's naturally going to take time for people to start using a different pronoun, especially if the pronoun wasn't really in your vocabulary before), but deliberately misgendering someone is petty (and also a serious dick move). After all, it costs you exactly $0.00 to have respect for another human being.
by Evil Dictators Happyland » Mon May 20, 2019 9:28 am
Cappuccina wrote:Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:I think that the issue here comes from the people who insist on "xe" and the like for seemingly no reason other than to annoy those around them.
Granted, I've never met such a person and I'm not entirely convinced that they exist, but at the same time, I don't think that one should declare that absolutely nobody does it, because if there's even a single example of someone who does, then what you said is false. Broad, sweeping generalizations are usually a bad idea, since there's almost certainly going to be some troll who wanders up from under his bridge just to tell you that you're wrong.
That being said, if someone asks you to refer to them using a different word, then you shouldn't deliberately choose not to whether or not you think they're being serious. Accidentally misgendering someone is kind of rude but not necessarily bad (it's naturally going to take time for people to start using a different pronoun, especially if the pronoun wasn't really in your vocabulary before), but deliberately misgendering someone is petty (and also a serious dick move). After all, it costs you exactly $0.00 to have respect for another human being.
People that use imaginary pronouns are best ignored, tbh. He, she, and they are plenty.
by Cappuccina » Mon May 20, 2019 9:34 am
by Vyluria-Aseko » Mon May 20, 2019 10:48 am
by Cekoviu » Mon May 20, 2019 11:16 am
Vyluria-Aseko wrote:-snep-
by Cappuccina » Mon May 20, 2019 12:34 pm
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