Maybe we can get rid of them...
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by West Leas Oros 2 » Thu May 09, 2019 1:11 pm
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by West Leas Oros 2 » Thu May 09, 2019 1:14 pm
WLO Public News: Outdated Factbooks and other documents in process of major redesign! ESTIMATED COMPLETION DATE: <error:not found>
by Ostroeuropa » Thu May 09, 2019 1:15 pm
by Hirota » Thu May 09, 2019 1:19 pm
I've already done that old bean, do keep up....
by Ostroeuropa » Thu May 09, 2019 1:21 pm
by Ifreann » Thu May 09, 2019 1:22 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:Ifreann wrote:Employers drive down wages. The problem is them, not immigration.
This is true, but you know how to deal with them?
With a class of people who aren't worked nearly to death and barely making ends meet. Keeping the immigrants out to push for better labor conditions is a prerequisite to the ultimate campaign.
by Ostroeuropa » Thu May 09, 2019 1:22 pm
by West Leas Oros 2 » Thu May 09, 2019 1:23 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:Vassenor wrote:
Let's see your data demonstrating an actual causal link between immigration and wage depression then.
https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-wages/
for one thing, it's absurd for the pro-migration people to be pretending to be pro-immigrant.
Immigrants depress the wages of immigrants already here most of all, and keep their communities in poverty. This is because the newly arriving immigrants have skills similar to the ones already here.
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by Ostroeuropa » Thu May 09, 2019 1:23 pm
Ifreann wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:
This is true, but you know how to deal with them?
With a class of people who aren't worked nearly to death and barely making ends meet. Keeping the immigrants out to push for better labor conditions is a prerequisite to the ultimate campaign.
Can't be having exploited workers in your labour movement or country, eh?
by Ostroeuropa » Thu May 09, 2019 1:23 pm
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:
https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-wages/
for one thing, it's absurd for the pro-migration people to be pretending to be pro-immigrant.
Immigrants depress the wages of immigrants already here most of all, and keep their communities in poverty. This is because the newly arriving immigrants have skills similar to the ones already here.
Still, immigrants should be included in any proletarian revolution. There is legitimately no reason not to.
by Ifreann » Thu May 09, 2019 1:24 pm
by West Leas Oros 2 » Thu May 09, 2019 1:26 pm
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by Ifreann » Thu May 09, 2019 1:28 pm
by Ostroeuropa » Thu May 09, 2019 1:30 pm
by West Leas Oros 2 » Thu May 09, 2019 1:30 pm
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by Hirota » Thu May 09, 2019 1:37 pm
Opinion on that seems curiously divided. I hung up my Marxist tendencies back when I discovered the joys of recreational drugs, vodka & red bull and electronic dance music in my late teens, so I might not be parsing all this correctly, but whilst this article comes down on one side of that divide, it talks about the opinions of other socialist leaning figures being on the other side of that divide.West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:
https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-wages/
for one thing, it's absurd for the pro-migration people to be pretending to be pro-immigrant.
Immigrants depress the wages of immigrants already here most of all, and keep their communities in poverty. This is because the newly arriving immigrants have skills similar to the ones already here.
Still, immigrants should be included in any proletarian revolution. There is legitimately no reason not to.
by Ifreann » Thu May 09, 2019 1:37 pm
Ifreann wrote:No, see, the immigrants, they're too exploited to be part of the revolution. The revolution will be prosecuted by those least exploited by capitalism.
Immigrants who aren't already here aren't being exploited here, so this is nonsense.
Ostroeuropa wrote:Ifreann wrote:Employers drive down wages. The problem is them, not immigration.
This is true, but you know how to deal with them?
With a class of people who aren't worked nearly to death and barely making ends meet. Keeping the immigrants out to push for better labor conditions is a prerequisite to the ultimate campaign.
Any sensible approach to the topic would place a cap on migration in conjunction with ensuring better rights and protections for migrants already here and those who arrive in future.
by Dumb Ideologies » Thu May 09, 2019 1:52 pm
by Vassenor » Thu May 09, 2019 1:58 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:Vassenor wrote:
Let's see your data demonstrating an actual causal link between immigration and wage depression then.
https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-wages/
for one thing, it's absurd for the pro-migration people to be pretending to be pro-immigrant.
Immigrants depress the wages of immigrants already here most of all, and keep their communities in poverty. This is because the newly arriving immigrants have skills similar to the ones already here and drive up the supply of labor for those jobs, and thus the wages down.
by West Leas Oros 2 » Thu May 09, 2019 2:01 pm
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Ifreann wrote:No, see, the immigrants, they're too exploited to be part of the revolution. The revolution will be prosecuted by those least exploited by capitalism.
What if I told you that global capitalism systematically utilises mass immigration both as a deliberate economic strategy to reduce the bargaining power of workers and as an ideological strategy to divert anger away from the system towards the culturally incompatible people they're continually demanding be brought in, and that pro-immigration advocates are complicit in perpetuating a sociocultural dynamic that inevitably serves to dilute class consciousness and delay socialism in the developed world?
WLO Public News: Outdated Factbooks and other documents in process of major redesign! ESTIMATED COMPLETION DATE: <error:not found>
by Dumb Ideologies » Thu May 09, 2019 2:12 pm
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Dumb Ideologies wrote:
What if I told you that global capitalism systematically utilises mass immigration both as a deliberate economic strategy to reduce the bargaining power of workers and as an ideological strategy to divert anger away from the system towards the culturally incompatible people they're continually demanding be brought in, and that pro-immigration advocates are complicit in perpetuating a sociocultural dynamic that inevitably serves to dilute class consciousness and delay socialism in the developed world?
Well certainly. but nonetheless, i'd suffice it to say that if immigrants can further class consciousness, they should. And i'd hardly consider it as "cultural incompatibility", as such a concept doesn't even make sense, as bourgeois society has already stripped away culture in many ways, and a unified proletarian culture would unite native and immigrant workers. Indeed, immigrants could very well be what we need to further class consciousness. We shouldn't be in favor of mass immigration for capitalist interests, sure, but we should act in solidarity with immigrants. Ideally, we can use their own tactics to spread the seeds of revolution. By working with immigrants to increase class consciousness, including them in the class struggle, we would all find we have more in common than we have difference.
by Ostroeuropa » Thu May 09, 2019 2:17 pm
Vassenor wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:
https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-wages/
for one thing, it's absurd for the pro-migration people to be pretending to be pro-immigrant.
Immigrants depress the wages of immigrants already here most of all, and keep their communities in poverty. This is because the newly arriving immigrants have skills similar to the ones already here and drive up the supply of labor for those jobs, and thus the wages down.
>They disagree on whether it has been good or bad for wages overall but tend to show that the effect is small and also short-term.
>Studies that have tried to do it in the UK have sometimes reached opposing conclusions about whether it increases or decreases wages overall but they tend to agree that immigration has a small impact on average wages of existing workers.
So basically it's a change of a fraction of a percent if it is there.
[thonkingface]
Ifreann wrote:If you can achieve the latter then why bother with the former?
by Ifreann » Thu May 09, 2019 2:28 pm
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Ifreann wrote:No, see, the immigrants, they're too exploited to be part of the revolution. The revolution will be prosecuted by those least exploited by capitalism.
What if I told you that global capitalism systematically utilises mass immigration both as a deliberate economic strategy to reduce the bargaining power of workers and as an ideological strategy to divert anger away from the system towards the culturally incompatible people they're continually demanding be brought in, and that pro-immigration advocates are complicit in perpetuating a sociocultural dynamic that inevitably serves to dilute class consciousness and delay socialism in the developed world?
by Ifreann » Thu May 09, 2019 2:40 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:Vassenor wrote:
>They disagree on whether it has been good or bad for wages overall but tend to show that the effect is small and also short-term.
>Studies that have tried to do it in the UK have sometimes reached opposing conclusions about whether it increases or decreases wages overall but they tend to agree that immigration has a small impact on average wages of existing workers.
So basically it's a change of a fraction of a percent if it is there.
[thonkingface]
as others pointed out, it increases the wages of the rich and depresses the wages of the poor.Ifreann wrote:If you can achieve the latter then why bother with the former?
Because that would heighten immigration numbers radically and we don't want millions turning up?
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