Alpha-Betas: Do they exist?

[Galloism]

What if both a man and a woman’s opinion matters so much to you that they both make you angry?

I would think...

That you seem to be grasping at straws by asking different questions knowing you're going to get the same answer.

Besides, you're assuming that I would care in the first place.

Is there a particular reason I should care these two people's opinions matter to me?

You made an unfair categorization of Scomagia. I’m trying to show you the error of your ways.

He’s not calling out their shitty insulting opinions because they are women, but because they are shitty insulting opinions. The fact that they are women does not affect his level of insult. That’s not sexist, and you owe him an apology.

[Scomagia]

I would think...

That you seem to be grasping at straws by asking different questions knowing you're going to get the same answer.

Besides, you're assuming that I would care in the first place.

Is there a particular reason I should care these two people's opinions matter to me?

You made an unfair categorization of Scomagia. I’m trying to show you the error of your ways.

He’s not calling out their shitty insulting opinions because they are women, but because they are shitty insulting opinions. The fact that they are women does not affect his level of insult. That’s not sexist, and you owe him an apology.

Very well put. Thank you.

[The Rich Port]

I would think...

That you seem to be grasping at straws by asking different questions knowing you're going to get the same answer.

Besides, you're assuming that I would care in the first place.

Is there a particular reason I should care these two people's opinions matter to me?

You made an unfair categorization of Scomagia. I’m trying to show you the error of your ways.

He’s not calling out their shitty insulting opinions because they are women, but because they are shitty insulting opinions. The fact that they are women does not affect his level of insult. That’s not sexist, and you owe him an apology.

Shitty insulting opinions that are apparently coming mostly from women, when several people have made it clear that that's not at all representative of their own experiences, and with the intent of making a sociopolitical statement that I don't agree with and am suspicious of.

Considering that woman-bashing and reactionary deceit are very popular these days, I don't find it unfair at all to be suspicious of people's intents.

How about he apologizes first for condescending to me that I "missed the point" of him not bringing up his wife, since, you know, it's kind of a legit question, considering this is the only woman's opinion that should matter, and not the ignorant opinions of family and random acquaintances and friends. They certainly don't matter to me, and my friends wouldn't be so ignorant as to assume that it's a failing of my character. I admit to that bias, I suppose?

Oh, and asks for his apology in person, instead of... Relaying it through you, I guess?

[Scomagia]

You made an unfair categorization of Scomagia. I’m trying to show you the error of your ways.

He’s not calling out their shitty insulting opinions because they are women, but because they are shitty insulting opinions. The fact that they are women does not affect his level of insult. That’s not sexist, and you owe him an apology.

Shitty insulting opinions that are apparently coming mostly from women, when several people have made it clear that that's not at all representative of their own experiences, and with the intent of making a sociopolitical statement that I don't agree with and am suspicious of.

Yes, in my experience, the insulting behavior comes primarily from women. However, my reaction when the odd man has been insulting hasn't been any different. In either case, it's hurtful. Does other people's experiences being different with regards to gender role enforcement make mine irrelevant?

And I made no socio-political claims. I responded to a post of Gallo's with my own experiences because my experiences dove-tailed with what he was saying.

Considering that woman-bashing and reactionary deceit are very popular these days, I don't find it unfair at all to be suspicious of people's intents.

It's pretty difficult to have civil conversations if you assume bad faith from the other party. I haven't done that to you.

How about he apologizes first for condescending to me that I "missed the point" of him not bringing up his wife, since, you know, it's kind of a legit question, considering this is the only woman's opinion that should matter, and not the ignorant opinions of family and random acquaintances and friends.

I apologize if my statement read as condescending. It wasn't meant to.

This idea that my wife's opinion is the only woman's opinion that I should value is ridiculous. How other people feel about me matters to me to varying degrees, based on the person, male or female. Sorry, I don't possess your degree of imperviousness to social opinion.

They certainly don't matter to me, and my friends wouldn't be so ignorant as to assume that it's a failing of my character. I admit to that bias, I suppose?

Good for you, being so tough and all. Not everyone is like you.

Oh, and asks for his apology in person, instead of... Relaying it through you, I guess?

I didn't relay anything through Gallo, he posted what he did purely of his own inspiration and accord.

[The Free Joy State]

Can I see some stats on that, please?

I am not denying that domestic violence is a serious problem, for both genders, and that both men and women are raped (and that it is possibly under-reported among men). I don't deny that women do abuse and rape men.

I am not ignorant of these issues.

But the stats I've seen (including by the CDC) generally puts the rate of domestic abuse higher among women than men.

Saying that does not make the domestic violence towards men any less serious or heinous.

I’m going to use the 2011 survey if you don’t mind, as it’s in html and I’m on a phone.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrht ... ss6308a1_e

For the 1 year prior to the survey, 4,774,000 women reported physical violence, compared with 5,420,000 men.

It’s hard to work the sexual violence, as there’s statistical overlap. 922,000 women reported rape, and 2,476,000 reported other sexual violence. But those numbers can (and likely do) have overlapping populations, along with overlapping physical. Men reported 2,442,000 incidences of other sexual violence, but the CDC groups men being raped by their intimate partner (962,000) into that number.

In total on rape, 1,929,000 women reported in the prior year. 1,921,000 men reported being “made to penetrate” in the same time period.

Ah, the CDC stats I've been using are these statistics from 2010, which show that 2.7% of women had experienced intimate partner violence within 12 months as opposed to 2.0% of men. That said, men were slightly more likely to experience psychological aggression from an intimate partner (48.4% for women, compared to 48.8% from men).

The rape stats also indicate a slightly, but not significantly higher incidence of reporting among women. However, as that's the previous year, I will defer to your stats as being more current.

That said, in the UK, national stats still indicate women are more likely to experience domestic violence, even as late as March 2017(1.2 million women and 713,000 men, aged 16 to 59, within a 12 month period).

Though, it's more than possible that men under-report (as could women; it's estimated that 79% of people who experience it don't report).

For the study of teens, this was recent, and also from Canada, but here you go.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 133154.htm

However, the researchers found 5.8 per cent of boys and 4.2 per cent of girls said they had experienced dating violence in the past year.

First author Catherine Shaffer, a PhD student from SFU who was involved in the study, says more research is needed to understand why boys are reporting more dating violence.

"It could be that it's still socially acceptable for girls to hit or slap boys in dating relationships," she said. "This has been found in studies of adolescents in other countries as well."

Thanks for providing the link.

That's terrible.

More work should be done in schools to encourage both boys and girls to learn how to treat each other with mutual respect.

[The Rich Port]

Shitty insulting opinions that are apparently coming mostly from women, when several people have made it clear that that's not at all representative of their own experiences, and with the intent of making a sociopolitical statement that I don't agree with and am suspicious of.

Yes, in my experience, the insulting behavior comes primarily from women. However, my reaction when the odd man has been insulting hasn't been any different. In either case, it's hurtful. Does other people's experiences being different with regards to gender role enforcement make mine irrelevant?

And I made no socio-political claims. I responded to a post of Gallo's with my own experiences because my experiences dove-tailed with what he was saying.

Considering that woman-bashing and reactionary deceit are very popular these days, I don't find it unfair at all to be suspicious of people's intents.

It's pretty difficult to have civil conversations if you assume bad faith from the other party. I haven't done that to you.

How about he apologizes first for condescending to me that I "missed the point" of him not bringing up his wife, since, you know, it's kind of a legit question, considering this is the only woman's opinion that should matter, and not the ignorant opinions of family and random acquaintances and friends.

I apologize if my statement read as condescending. It wasn't meant to.

This idea that my wife's opinion is the only woman's opinion that I should value is ridiculous. How other people feel about me matters to me to varying degrees, based on the person, male or female. Sorry, I don't possess your degree of imperviousness to social opinion.

They certainly don't matter to me, and my friends wouldn't be so ignorant as to assume that it's a failing of my character. I admit to that bias, I suppose?

Good for you, being so tough and all. Not everyone is like you.

Oh, and asks for his apology in person, instead of... Relaying it through you, I guess?

I didn't relay anything through Gallo, he posted what he did purely of his own inspiration and accord.

You know what, we got off on the wrong foot. Apology accepted, and I apologize in turn for assuming.

I'm sure you'll find the strength to not care so much about other people's opinions.

I didn't know I was considered so tough! Thank you for the compliment.

It's one thing to rationally consider other people's opinions, but to let them affect you to the point that they upset you and make you angry just devalues your own.

So what if some chode or some crone thinks you're a lazy lay-about? They obviously don't understand your situation, so either you've explained it to them and they refuse to stop being ignorant about it and therefore you shouldn't waste your time and it's time to find some new friends, or... You know what, I honestly don't know what else is there.

[The Blaatschapen]

Warning: Only read OP.

Betas do not exist.

There is an alpha and omega though.

Me. As far as I am concerned.

[The Huskar Social Union]

No they dont.

[Cannot think of a name]

Warning: Only read OP.

Betas do not exist.

There is an alpha and omega though.

Me. As far as I am concerned.

Wait, you're that lamb?

[Scomagia]

Yes, in my experience, the insulting behavior comes primarily from women. However, my reaction when the odd man has been insulting hasn't been any different. In either case, it's hurtful. Does other people's experiences being different with regards to gender role enforcement make mine irrelevant?

And I made no socio-political claims. I responded to a post of Gallo's with my own experiences because my experiences dove-tailed with what he was saying.

It's pretty difficult to have civil conversations if you assume bad faith from the other party. I haven't done that to you.

I apologize if my statement read as condescending. It wasn't meant to.

This idea that my wife's opinion is the only woman's opinion that I should value is ridiculous. How other people feel about me matters to me to varying degrees, based on the person, male or female. Sorry, I don't possess your degree of imperviousness to social opinion.

Good for you, being so tough and all. Not everyone is like you.

I didn't relay anything through Gallo, he posted what he did purely of his own inspiration and accord.

You know what, we got off on the wrong foot. Apology accepted, and I apologize in turn for assuming.

I accept your apology, as well.

I'm sure you'll find the strength to not care so much about other people's opinions.

It's an initial reaction, really. I just don't like that initial moment when I realize someone is being disrespectful. I don't dwell, probably because I assert myself and let people know when they're being rude.

I didn't know I was considered so tough! Thank you for the compliment.

Hey, not being perturbed at all when people are being rude to you is admirable.

It's one thing to rationally consider other people's opinions, but to let them affect you to the point that they upset you and make you angry just devalues your own.

You aren't wrong.

So what if some chode or some crone thinks you're a lazy lay-about? They obviously don't understand your situation, so either you've explained it to them and they refuse to stop being ignorant about it and therefore you shouldn't waste your time and it's time to find some new friends, or... You know what, I honestly don't know what else is there.

I agree. After the initial jackassery I don't really care but in the moment it's a bit of a bummer. As far as friends go, it's only some of my wife's acquaintances that are so blatantly rude. Her actual friends are my friends, as well, and they'd know better than to say anything derogatory about my domestic role if they want to continue being our friends.
Family-wise, most flak has come from her extended family. Her father said some pretty rude shit, once, but I asserted myself and he apologized in a hurry. Nothing since.

Anyway, shuffling back on topic, my situation emphasizes how the Alpha/Beta dichotomy fails to account for the complexities of human interaction. Am I a Beta for not working? Was I the "Alpha" in the interaction with my father-in-law, a man who himself could be generally said to be an "Alpha"?

It's insufficient terminology for the complex nature of individuals across time and their interactions with each other.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Oh yeah, addressing the question in the OP:

No, they're archetypes based on other species and trying to copy-paste them into creatures with different and more complicated brains, social structures etc is cod-scientific bollocks.

[Ethel mermania]

"Welcome to Scomagia's Alpha Male Homemaking class! Today, I'm going to show you how a MAN sautees mushrooms and onions! Later, I'll show you how to manhandle the laundry without ruining your wife's delicates and how to iron like a WARRIOR! Finally, I'll show you which cleaners will absolutely FUBAR stubborn toilet rings!"

I would attend this class.

I have found that well sauteed mushrooms really turns the women folk on.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

I'll never understand these American university Greek letter fraternities.

[The Blaatschapen]

Warning: Only read OP.

Betas do not exist.

There is an alpha and omega though.

Me. As far as I am concerned.

Wait, you're that lamb?

Yes

[Costa Fierro]

To summarize: you think women enforce social roles?

It's not a belief. It's a fact.

The happiest people are married men, and they are expected to be breadwinners not because women don't want to be, but because women make less.

First up, the idea that married, men, or anyone married for that matter, are the happiest of any group is commonly believed, but recent and studies further back actually point to the opposite. More importantly, men are often face more pressure into getting married than women do, which prevents them from actively embracing being single.

I know that men face difficulties, but asking men to reconsider how they approach masculinity is not "dismantling it".

That's a bit like saying "I know ethnic minorities face difficulties, but have they considered not being criminals?" Because that's what the term "toxic masculinity" is. It's outright saying "you wouldn't be where you are now if you acted more like women", which is of course, wrong. Men and women are wired differently biologically, that is how we are as a species.

What I didn't allude to which I should have done in my previous response is that "toxic masculinity" is massively sexist in its assumptions of what men supposedly are and how they are socialised. It assumes that men are predisposed to all these negative traits and that simply isn't true. Whereas we automatically assume that women have no issues with how they are socialised, and therefore it makes the assumption that women are better than men.

[-MAFDET-]

Incels do damage society. They are sexist and hostile.

...Though I'll admit the first time ever someone brought them up to me I thought they just meant Virgins.

Man I felt stupid after some research.

Incels don’t damage society.
Societies that include women are damaging to everyone, incels are just an example of the damage it’s socially justifiable to abuse.

Are you happy?

[The Free Joy State]

Oh, and addressing the actual OP, they don't exist.

It's entirely based on stereotypes , and fails to account for the complexities of interpersonal relationships or the diversity of human personalities.

[The New California Republic]

In the gay community they sometimes exist for roleplaying purposes etc; but actually existing outside of roleplay? No. Not at all.

[Rothbrook]

The entire concept is complete garbage invented by basement dwelling brainlets and belongs into the trash.

CORRECT!

[Rothbrook]

all these betas voting no, lol

[Valrifell]

Oh, and addressing the actual OP, they don't exist.

It's entirely based on stereotypes , and fails to account for the complexities of interpersonal relationships or the diversity of human personalities.

I never really understood why people thought a social structure for wolves would translate nicely to people. Oh and by the way the first theorist pushing the alpha/beta theory denounced it in later writings, so.

[Rothbrook]

So based off another thread.

It's time to argue a topic that's quietly divided our society based on lack of education and people preying on those who feel weak and/or want to feel powerful and justified in how they act and think they're attractive.

The post I like most discussing it is posted here, yes it's my post.

Alpha/Beta talk makes me super uncomfortable. Some people tried to help me "help me stop being a fucking little beta cuck", including one person through manipulation such as lying about them being a female, then when I asked for evidence, claimed they were raped on camera so were too uncomfortable. Made me feel horrible so accepted it.
Became my closest friend, then they were revealed to be a fake, devastated me m8.

Another one-a female this time oddly-got pissed I rejected one of those's groups advice and left saying I never listened/cared about what they had to say.(Which is fair but not in that context, if that time was the last straw that's just stupid.)Look not here to talk about my life rather provide anecdotes backing up my belief of the Alpha-Beta myth being perpetuated by piece of shit males and misguided females.

Self-declared Alphas are just pieces of shit who think they'e attractive because they're fit and assholes.

Alphas and Betas have been debunked sick of this shit.

We need a serious societal talk about this. Shall I make a NSG thread?

I made it.


They don't exist.

Let's put it to rest.

https://thinkgrowth.org/the-alpha-myth-150121d3868f
https://www.businessinsider.com/no-such-thing-alpha-male-2016-10

It is inapplicable to humans. Oversimplifies reality.

Marks women as the same they aren't. They are all unique. They didn't all pick or reject you because you're strong, fit, handsome, etc.

It's also quite sexist and disrespects women and technically sexual harassment.

So, let's all put this to bed.


What say ye NSG?

Do they exist?

It's to me pretty retarded and uneducated to say they do.

I do regret to inform you that, typically physically fit males possess more confidence (which may be viewed as being an "asshole") and therefore are typically more attractive to females. Hetero females typically like men that are physically fit and sure of themselves, "Alpha" isn't necessarily a good term for them, as we are more closely related to primates than any other animal. Curiously; we share many similarities with Bonobos, chimpanzees, and Gorilla's in terms of social interactions! With the exception of Bonobos, these primate societies are all patriarchal meaning that the largest, and most adept male is charged with protecting, leading, procreating, and sharing with the females and lesser males. Females in these societies are often more or less loyal to the Silverback or dominate male, for not only attractiveness; but also the higher chance of offspring survival.
We aren't apes, but we're damn close. If you're so worried about being a "beta cuck" then change that about yourself. It's all up to you my man, and don't sweat the women, they'll be one who's smart enough to see your worth. Lift a few weights, get out in the sun, eat a fat steak. Drive on and be you brother!

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I’m going to use the 2011 survey if you don’t mind, as it’s in html and I’m on a phone.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrht ... ss6308a1_e

For the 1 year prior to the survey, 4,774,000 women reported physical violence, compared with 5,420,000 men.

It’s hard to work the sexual violence, as there’s statistical overlap. 922,000 women reported rape, and 2,476,000 reported other sexual violence. But those numbers can (and likely do) have overlapping populations, along with overlapping physical. Men reported 2,442,000 incidences of other sexual violence, but the CDC groups men being raped by their intimate partner (962,000) into that number.

In total on rape, 1,929,000 women reported in the prior year. 1,921,000 men reported being “made to penetrate” in the same time period.

Ah, the CDC stats I've been using are these statistics from 2010, which show that 2.7% of women had experienced intimate partner violence within 12 months as opposed to 2.0% of men. That said, men were slightly more likely to experience psychological aggression from an intimate partner (48.4% for women, compared to 48.8% from men).

The rape stats also indicate a slightly, but not significantly higher incidence of reporting among women. However, as that's the previous year, I will defer to your stats as being more current.

That said, in the UK, national stats still indicate women are more likely to experience domestic violence, even as late as March 2017(1.2 million women and 713,000 men, aged 16 to 59, within a 12 month period).

Though, it's more than possible that men under-report (as could women; it's estimated that 79% of people who experience it don't report).

For the study of teens, this was recent, and also from Canada, but here you go.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 133154.htm

Thanks for providing the link.

That's terrible.

More work should be done in schools to encourage both boys and girls to learn how to treat each other with mutual respect.

On your last point, I think the education here needs to start at home with some input from the school. Many children, unfortunately, re-enact the learned behaviors they see at home. They recreate the dynamics they learned from their parents.

[The Free Joy State]

Ah, the CDC stats I've been using are these statistics from 2010, which show that 2.7% of women had experienced intimate partner violence within 12 months as opposed to 2.0% of men. That said, men were slightly more likely to experience psychological aggression from an intimate partner (48.4% for women, compared to 48.8% from men).

The rape stats also indicate a slightly, but not significantly higher incidence of reporting among women. However, as that's the previous year, I will defer to your stats as being more current.

That said, in the UK, national stats still indicate women are more likely to experience domestic violence, even as late as March 2017(1.2 million women and 713,000 men, aged 16 to 59, within a 12 month period).

Though, it's more than possible that men under-report (as could women; it's estimated that 79% of people who experience it don't report).


Thanks for providing the link.

That's terrible.

More work should be done in schools to encourage both boys and girls to learn how to treat each other with mutual respect.

On your last point, I think the education here needs to start at home with some input from the school. Many children, unfortunately, re-enact the learned behaviors they see at home. They recreate the dynamics they learned from their parents.

I agree with you that parental influences are important in children learning to respect each other.

I just said schools because, sadly, not every child has a good family dynamic to learn from. National or local curricula can at least standardise the messages children receive at school, which may help counteract some of the worst messages some children receive.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

On your last point, I think the education here needs to start at home with some input from the school. Many children, unfortunately, re-enact the learned behaviors they see at home. They recreate the dynamics they learned from their parents.

I agree with you that parental influences are important in children learning to respect each other.

I just said schools because, sadly, not every child has a good family dynamic to learn from. National or local curricula can at least standardise the messages children receive at school.

No, I’m not contesting your point. I find it a fair initiative. My point is that home input is necessary. In fact, if parents are enforcers of problematic dynamics which are reflecting on how their kids behave, they probably ought to have some guidance too. If possible. Of course, it can’t be forced.