Silly Ideas: Allowing Foreigners to Vote in the U.S Election

[Yusseria]

*whispers*

England.

is a country that is part of the United Kingdom.

Unlike Northumbria.

[Munkchester]

is a country that is part of the United Kingdom.

Unlike Northumbria.

I think the mods told you to stop talking about that earlier

[Agarntrop]

also weak.

how low can you go?

[Auze]

Agreed. For a country that was founded on the idea of no taxation without representation you do seem to have a lot of that going on. Over four million American citizens and nationals out of 330, if my math is correct. Larger than the population of around 24 states.

Puerto Ricans, and citizens of territories in general, don't pay most federal taxes. There is no federal income tax there, and what federal taxes they do pay are tariffs, commodity taxes, and Social Security/Medicare (which they get the benefits of). The exception is for government employees, which make up 1/5 of the population. Source.

[Foltov]

Suicidal Europeans are always a laugh.

It never stops being incredibly cute just how much the fashy defenders of Western civilization seem to actively despise and look down on Western civilization.

Hey you absolute genius, they aren't fascists and you don't seem to know what fascism is. You might want to look it up because you are bringing us into this for no reason when you haven't talked to a single fascist in this thread. Fascism is well defined. You can't just call someone you dislike a fascist just like I can't call someone I dislike a marxist if he isn't a marxist. I'm not going to answer any message you send back. Just giving my two cents.

Edited because of too harsh of a word

[Benuty]

Wow, I get people don't like Liri, but that might be going too far.

[Longweather]

This seems fair enough. Alternatively, just have the nations that want to vote in our elections petition for statehood. You want to vote in our federal elections, you follow our laws.

We could setup an online application process. If another people sign up for it in a given country, we offer them statehood or send them some Freedom.

Interesting alternative. Not sure I like it though.

[Liriena]

It never stops being incredibly cute just how much the fashy defenders of Western civilization seem to actively despise and look down on Western civilization.

Hey you absolute genius, they aren't fascists and you don't seem to know what fascism is. You might want to look it up because you are bringing us into this for no reason when you haven't talked to a single fascist in this thread. Fascism is well defined. You can't just call someone you dislike a fascist just like I can't call someone I dislike a marxist if he isn't a marxist. I'm not going to answer any message you send back. Just giving my two cents.

Edited because of too harsh of a word

Yusseria is a national syndicalist, which is pretty fashy. But I appreciate the one-sided shouting and your admission that you have no intention of actually debating. Big win for the marketplace of ideas.

[Liriena]

Wow, I get people don't like Liri, but that might be going too far.

[extremely Trump voice] Excuse me! Excuse me! Everybody likes me! I have a very good brain and people have told me I'm the most likeable guy, unlike that pencil-necked loser Schiff.

[Reploid Productions]

Hey cunt.

Editing the flame out after it's already been spotted doesn't get you out of trouble. (In fact, making a habit of posting rulebreaking content and then quickly editing it out can cost you your post-editing access entirely.) Since it is your first infraction however, I'll leave it at an unofficial warning this time. You can attack someone's argument without the flaming aimed at the player. Please review the site rules for further information.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[Munkchester]

So this went to munk being a a dolt nationalist of an irrelevant region of UK(as far as nationalism is concerned)

Interesting opinion from a self-proclaimed "Astounding Autist"

[The Emerald Legion]

Wow, I get people don't like Liri, but that might be going too far.

[extremely Trump voice] Excuse me! Excuse me! Everybody likes me! I have a very good brain and people have told me I'm the most likeable guy, unlike that pencil-necked loser Schiff.

I like Liriena.

I think they are wrong in basically 90% of their opinions about everything, but that doesn't mean I dislike them.

Also no. Honestly judging by the results I feel like Foreigners probably shouldn't be allowed to run their OWN countries. Let alone ours.

[Liriena]

So this went to munk being a a dolt nationalist of an irrelevant region of UK(as far as nationalism is concerned)

Interesting opinion from a self-proclaimed "Astounding Autist"

Dude...

[Badb Catha]

This is not a silly idea. This is a bad idea.

[Novus America]

Pfft. You act like there's something wrong with empire-building.

I'd say hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians killed over the course of two decades in illegitimate wars is pretty wrong. And that's without figuring in the quasi-genocidal disaster that has been the United States' involvement in Yemen.

Afghanistan was legit.
And that was not empire building.

Where is the Empire? What new territories did we gain? Zero. Zip. Nada.

[Trinadaed]

Letting foreign IMMIGRANTS vote is good, but this? I don't want North Korea rigging everything.

[The South Falls]

Letting foreign IMMIGRANTS vote is good, but this? I don't want North Korea rigging everything.

North Korea couldn't physically rig everything.

[Trinadaed]

That was an exaggeration.

[Badb Catha]

Letting foreign IMMIGRANTS vote is good, but this? I don't want North Korea rigging everything.

Are these immigrants citizens? Did they immigrate legally?

I'd say hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians killed over the course of two decades in illegitimate wars is pretty wrong. And that's without figuring in the quasi-genocidal disaster that has been the United States' involvement in Yemen.

Afghanistan was legit.
And that was not empire building.

Where is the Empire? What new territories did we gain? Zero. Zip. Nada.

America is not an empire. It does not engage in imperialism. America is an interventionist hegemony that seeks to expand it's sphere of influence at all costs. There is a difference, though many fail to realize this.

[Novus America]

Letting foreign IMMIGRANTS vote is good, but this? I don't want North Korea rigging everything.

Are these immigrants citizens? Did they immigrate legally?

Afghanistan was legit.
And that was not empire building.

Where is the Empire? What new territories did we gain? Zero. Zip. Nada.

America is not an empire. It does not engage in imperialism. America is an interventionist hegemony that seeks to expand it's sphere of influence at all costs. There is a difference, though many fail to realize this.

Well the first part is true, in that we have been out of the Empire game a very long time.

And we do not seek to expand our influence “at all cost”. If we did we would have invaded a lot more places like Venezuela.

The truth is we are interventionist often, but not always and not at all costs.
We are in fact pretty inconsistent.

[Forsher]

If the case for democracy is built upon a right to participate in the society one lives in... and it is (citizenship is just a proxy measure of this used by some countries, others use, for example, permanent residence to measure "living in society-ness")... then this begs the question: what is the society that one lives in?

Obviously it makes sense to say that the political country that one inhabits is a good enough proxy measure for the society since aside from anything else the government of that country tries to subject everyone in the physical country to its laws. In fact, I'd say that's the weakest justification for this position. But what about globalisation? Well...

In particular, globalisation is seen to challenge the public nature of (domestic) public policy by summoning a series of non‐negotiable, external, and largely

economic imperatives that must be appeased in a technically proficient manner if good economic performance is to be maintained, whatever the cost in terms of democratic accountability. Similarly, globalisation is seen as the enemy of policy, public or otherwise, in the sense that it is seen to dictate policy choices whilst itself being beyond the capacity of domestic political actors to control. (Globalization and Public Policy by Colin Hay in The Oxford Handbook of Public Policy)

The rest of that chapter does pose good questions about whether or not globalisation really exists but insofar as we can assume it does... certainly it has long been known that when America sneezes the rest of the world gets a cold (and this can be a very literal sentiment)... it would appear that globalisation is at tension with democracy. Yet, the basic argument for democracy presented here really just begs the question... doesn't globalisation represent an argument for expanding our sense of the society one lives in? Self-evidently it does... unless it doesn't exist.

So... we have used, in terms of this thread's title, globalisation to reject the idea that there are foreigners in any meaningful sense from the perspective of the USA. Indeed, our argument for democracy when combined with this interpretation of globalisation suggests that to not allow "foreigners" a vote is inconsistent with principles of democracy. But this does not imply how to let foreigners vote. The closest we get to that is the question of extent of livingness.

As I implicitly suggested before there are many ways of measuring livingness and it's clear that foreigners do not live in American society in the same way that Americans do. In our basic case we know that American laws don't work the same way within the political country as they do outside it. To reconcile this with the globalisation argument it's necessary to say that degrees of livingness are recognisable. In effect, foreigners are second-class citizens. This would suggest through a mechanism like "fairness" that it would be best if the foreigners have second-class voting rights.

I'm, as some of you know, very much opposed to the US electoral college on the grounds that it is undemocratic but it is an obvious guide to how to incorporate the foreigners. Split the world up into some small number of geographic areas (e.g. Europe, Asia, Latin America, Canada, Caribbean, Oceania, Africa and Other) and give them some votes. The Canadians, Latin Americans and Caribbean electors should be more numerous... perhaps tie them to the number of Electors that Hawaii gets... while Oceania should be maybe 2/3 of that number and the rest of the regions half of the electors that Canada has. In this fashion, we can give the foreigners the recognition democratic values demand they ought to have whilst simultaneously acknowledging that a lesser residence ought to imply a lesser voice.

I would have the constituent countries vote as solid blocs. That is, proportionately allocate Electors based on how countries vote. So, for example, Oceania might be 75% for the Democrat, 25% the Republican so of the 3 electors that Oceania has, 75% ought to go Democrat... in practice this would be 3. This 75% figure would be determined by saying "okay Australia contributes X% to the sum and since the Republican won in Australia, all of that X% are Republicans).

So... yeah... not a silly idea at all. What can be silly is any specific proposal, it's likely mine is an example there, for how to do it... but there's a very straightforward argument to this.

[Ifreann]

No, foreigners shouldn't be allowed to vote in countries where they aren't citizens.

I'm allowed to vote in nations where I'm not a citizen, I'd just have to live there. Hasn't caused any problems so far.

[The Man Who Shot Jiminy Cricket]

No, foreigners shouldn't be allowed to vote in countries where they aren't citizens.

I'm allowed to vote in nations where I'm not a citizen, I'd just have to live there. Hasn't caused any problems so far.

Doesn't right to vote make you a de facto citizen?

[Ifreann]

I'm allowed to vote in nations where I'm not a citizen, I'd just have to live there. Hasn't caused any problems so far.

Doesn't right to vote make you a de facto citizen?

No.

[The Man Who Shot Jiminy Cricket]

Doesn't right to vote make you a de facto citizen?

No.

Then what does?