Women in ISIS III: Irish Edition

[Ifreann]

Yes, I'm sure she's totally reformed and doesn't have any plans to commit acts of terror once she's able.

As far as I know, no one's been in contact with her. We don't know if she claims to be reformed or anything like that.

[Torrocca]

You're just as wrong as OEP is, according to the literal legal definitions of the presumption of innocence which the Irish judicial system is not only using for this case, but which it's literally built around.

I know I'm just as wrong as he is, but this is America and Donald Trump is actually Jimmy Carter in disguise, therefore I am right.

:thonk:

Not at all, especially not when talking about legal standards. You really should be careful weighing in on a legal topic when you don't even understand how reasonable suspicion - not reasonable assumption - works.

Yes, they are synonyms. You should be careful when weighing in on topics when you don't understand basic English.

Except you're quite blatantly wrong. Innocent until proven guilty is literally the same concept practiced in Ireland. You're getting your machismo twisted in a knot because they're following a legal practice to the letter.

Again, you don't understand how innocent until proven guilty. Yes, she is not facing any legal issues yet, but that they are doing a criminal investigation literally means they believe her to be guilty of criminal acts.

They suspect that she's committed a crime, but they don't assume she has. There's a fucking chasm of a difference legally to that. The former still upholds the virtue of the presumption of innocence, whereas the latter doesn't.

[Confederate States of German America]

They suspect that she's committed a crime, but they don't assume she has. There's a fucking chasm of a difference legally to that. The former still upholds the virtue of the presumption of innocence, whereas the latter doesn't.

As I said, they are literally synonyms. Learn basic English before debating on a topic.

[Digital Planets]

They suspect that she's committed a crime, but they don't assume she has. There's a fucking chasm of a difference legally to that. The former still upholds the virtue of the presumption of innocence, whereas the latter doesn't.

As I said, they are literally synonyms. Learn basic English before debating on a topic.

no englas

[Torrocca]

They suspect that she's committed a crime, but they don't assume she has. There's a fucking chasm of a difference legally to that. The former still upholds the virtue of the presumption of innocence, whereas the latter doesn't.

As I said, they are literally synonyms. Learn basic English before debating on a topic.

They're literally not, though. Suspicion and assumption are vastly fucking different.

[Ifreann]

If they were assuming that she's a criminal then, like the British and Americans did, they would skip the investigation.

No.

Cool.

I'm not expressing an opinion, I'm saying I don't know if ISIS would be considered out enemy, considering we're not at war with them and they haven't attacked us.

> "I'm not expressing an opinion..."
> "I don't know if..."

Do you think that this is some sick gotcha?

[United Muscovite Nations]

1) It does if protecting the rights of your citizens means not allowing a state to exercise its jurisdiction.
2) Ireland does not have the jurisdiction to try someone for crimes they committed abroad.

2) Turns out Ireland does.

Even if extraterritorial jurisdiction was legally coherent, it still wouldn't override the jurisdiction of the country where the crimes occurred.

[United Muscovite Nations]

If she has left, then this is the best opportunity for Ireland to "close the door" on her, in my view. And to insist that no, she does not have a right to any return. Her citizenship can be revoked as Ireland sees fit. I wouldn't let her back in, were it within my power- and that is only the least of punishments.

And we're not doing that. We're not going to have our government shed its responsibility to its citizens because they could be criminals.

---

If she's in Syrian custody, no she doesn't.

A person doesn't cease to be an Irish citizen by leaving Ireland.

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Sometimes I don't understand why Ireland has made so many changes to their society, but this about sums up why.

We've had a policy of neutrality for as long as we've been our own country. We're sitting quietly over here on our own, not picking fights with foreign countries or terrorist organisations.

---

1) It does if protecting the rights of your citizens means not allowing a state to exercise its jurisdiction.

I don't really have any sympathy for Syria if they want sham trials and inhumane punishments and don't get them because an actually decent government is pressuring them to behave.

"Decent governments" having the right to tell foreign governments how they get to try crimes in their own country sounds a lot like the unequal treaties forced on colonized countries.

[Ifreann]

And we're not doing that. We're not going to have our government shed its responsibility to its citizens because they could be criminals.

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A person doesn't cease to be an Irish citizen by leaving Ireland.

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We've had a policy of neutrality for as long as we've been our own country. We're sitting quietly over here on our own, not picking fights with foreign countries or terrorist organisations.

---

I don't really have any sympathy for Syria if they want sham trials and inhumane punishments and don't get them because an actually decent government is pressuring them to behave.

"Decent governments" having the right to tell foreign governments how they get to try crimes in their own country sounds a lot like the unequal treaties forced on colonized countries.

Ah yes, Ireland's colonies in Syria.

[United Muscovite Nations]

"Decent governments" having the right to tell foreign governments how they get to try crimes in their own country sounds a lot like the unequal treaties forced on colonized countries.

Ah yes, Ireland's colonies in Syria.

Colonialism as an ideology doesn't just mean the colonial powers take advantage of it. It's colonialist when one government can force another government to take an action that is in the best interest of the foreign government rather than the host country. Britain didn't have colonies in Japan, but it was still colonialist when they forced unequal treaties on Japan.

[Ifreann]

Ah yes, Ireland's colonies in Syria.

Colonialism as an ideology doesn't just mean the colonial powers take advantage of it. It's colonialist when one government can force another government to take an action that is in the best interest of the foreign government rather than the host country. Britain didn't have colonies in Japan, but it was still colonialist when they forced unequal treaties on Japan.

What unequal treaties were forced on Syria to facilitate Ireland asking their government can we please have our citizen?

Is the very concept of governments asking something from other governments colonialist?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Colonialism as an ideology doesn't just mean the colonial powers take advantage of it. It's colonialist when one government can force another government to take an action that is in the best interest of the foreign government rather than the host country. Britain didn't have colonies in Japan, but it was still colonialist when they forced unequal treaties on Japan.

What unequal treaties were forced on Syria to facilitate Ireland asking their government can we please have our citizen?

Is the very concept of governments asking something from other governments colonialist?

If it's just asking, then surely you don't have a problem when she faces Syrian justice and isn't deported.

[Gravlen]

2) Turns out Ireland does.

Even if extraterritorial jurisdiction was legally coherent, it still wouldn't override the jurisdiction of the country where the crimes occurred.

It is, but no, it wouldn't. Never suggested anything to that effect.

[Gravlen]

Not at all, especially not when talking about legal standards. You really should be careful weighing in on a legal topic when you don't even understand how reasonable suspicion - not reasonable assumption - works.

Yes, they are synonyms. You should be careful when weighing in on topics when you don't understand basic English.

They have legally distinct meaning.

But I guess you have reasonable jealousy in this case, and you think that means the same since "jealousy" and "suspicion" are synonyms.

[New Sukberia]

I hate her and i hope she suffers for exposing her child to be endangered like that.

Still, good on Ireland, we can't have these EU citizens being prosecuted in dictatorships.

(Still hoping she gets life in Jail, if that's a thing in Ireland, and loses the custody of her child of course)

[United Muscovite Nations]

I hate her and i hope she suffers for exposing her child to be endangered like that.

Still, good on Ireland, we can't have these EU citizens being prosecuted in dictatorships.

(Still hoping she gets life in Jail, if that's a thing in Ireland, and loses the custody of her child of course)

Yes we can. The EU doesn't get to say what countries can try its citizens.

[Andsed]

So what has Lisa Smith done to aid ISIS? What she just a ISIS bride or did she actually do something to aid them?

[Yusseria]

If she doesn't at least go to prison, then the Irish government is kissing the ass of terrorists and their sympathizers.

Well we'd need to find a crime to charge her with and then put on trial and then convict her.

This mentality of yours that people joining terrorist organizations didn't do anything wrong is really quite delusional.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Take the kid; leave the traitor.

It's the only logical solution.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

Well we'd need to find a crime to charge her with and then put on trial and then convict her.

This mentality of yours that people joining terrorist organizations didn't do anything wrong is really quite delusional.

Arguing for due process=/=saying they've done nothing wrong.

[Yusseria]

This mentality of yours that people joining terrorist organizations didn't do anything wrong is really quite delusional.

Arguing for due process=/=saying they've done nothing wrong.

Due process for people abroad working for a terrorist organization.

Oh yes, that works.

I bet you're one of those types who thinks we can't drone strike terrorists without putting them on trial first. Please stay far away from government and leave national security matters to others who actually have functioning self-preservation instincts.

[Uxupox]

Should have been given to the UN to be tried as a war criminal.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

Arguing for due process=/=saying they've done nothing wrong.

Due process for people abroad working for a terrorist organization.

Oh yes, that works.

I bet you're one of those types who thinks we can't drone strike terrorists without putting them on trial first. Please stay far away from government and leave national security matters to others who actually have functioning self-preservation instincts.

What do you suppose is wrong with my self-preservation instincts, and how did you reach that conclusion based on this thing about some Irishwoman?

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

So what has Lisa Smith done to aid ISIS? What she just a ISIS bride or did she actually do something to aid them?

It doesn't seem like anyone really knows what she's done.

So we should probably kill the fucking bitch.

[Yusseria]

So what has Lisa Smith done to aid ISIS? What she just a ISIS bride or did she actually do something to aid them?

It doesn't seem like anyone really knows what she's done.

So we should probably kill the fucking bitch.

Actually, everyone knows what she did. She left her country to join a terrorist organization that's enslaved, tortured and massacred tens of thousands of people.

That's what she did.