Transgender Discussion Thread III: Vote in our poll!

[Auzkhia]

The traditional sex-gender system is a clunky, outdate, oppressive system. You cannot always and accurately extrapolate one's gender and sexual orientation from one's sex, which here means a composite of physiological traits related to mammalian sexual reproduction, it's a construct that only directly contributes to sexism and transphobia, but it rode the coattails of racism and colonialism. Not all human societies constructed gender the same way.

What's your angle for upholding it? Do you not want to change your worldview? Being wrong is part of learning, and thus bettering yourself.

Even gender essentialism is a woke rebrand of it, some people try to look for something inward, when really gender is much more murky and complicated, and that's ok, gender only exists in a society. Do we live in a society? Yes. Only society can define it and redefine it, and who is society, you are, I am society, you are society, we are all society.

[Khasinkonia]

I understand this sentiment. Frankly I get rather tired of seeing these same old arguments debating whether trans people exist or not. I’d like to see more stuff about how the current systems work and what needs improvement and what we can learn from the past.

Frankly any changes our ''systems'' need have nothing to do with trans people.

Well I should think systems which primarily serve to deal with trans people ought to be well-suited to the job. Maybe ensuring our systems are able to capably execute their duties is something of a controversial opinion, but I stand by it.

[Farnhamia]

Thread clogged by fatberg. Who flushed the wet wipes?

*** Warned for flaming. ***

Farburg = fatberg ... could you be more obvious?

[Internationalist Bastard]

I think one of the weirdest things for me is how I’m always ready to stop being openly trans in the face of problems
Like I wonder if this means I’m not really trans or if the deep depression I feel for not being accepted and thinking about going back in the closet is more proof than anything

[Farburg]

The traditional sex-gender system is a clunky, outdate, oppressive system. You cannot always and accurately extrapolate one's gender and sexual orientation from one's sex, which here means a composite of physiological traits related to mammalian sexual reproduction, it's a construct that only directly contributes to sexism and transphobia, but it rode the coattails of racism and colonialism. Not all human societies constructed gender the same way.

What's your angle for upholding it? Do you not want to change your worldview? Being wrong is part of learning, and thus bettering yourself.

Even gender essentialism is a woke rebrand of it, some people try to look for something inward, when really gender is much more murky and complicated, and that's ok, gender only exists in a society. Do we live in a society? Yes. Only society can define it and redefine it, and who is society, you are, I am society, you are society, we are all society.

Just because it only works for 99.9% of the species doesn’t mean it’s oppressive.

Most people are male or female, and a few either went through surgery to look like the other, or they are deformed.

[Farburg]

Frankly any changes our ''systems'' need have nothing to do with trans people.

Well I should think systems which primarily serve to deal with trans people ought to be well-suited to the job. Maybe ensuring our systems are able to capably execute their duties is something of a controversial opinion, but I stand by it.

We need systems that primarily deal with a tiny minority of people with rare disorders at the expense of literally everyone else.

[Gremand]

Well I should think systems which primarily serve to deal with trans people ought to be well-suited to the job. Maybe ensuring our systems are able to capably execute their duties is something of a controversial opinion, but I stand by it.

We need systems that primarily deal with a tiny minority of people with rare disorders at the expense of literally everyone else.

Question- how does allowing for more people within the system harm in any way literally anyone? Does accepting that there is varience harm you? My mother has a beard. Does that harm you? There is enough people who vary from the "standard" definition of both gender AND sex that the system is visibly flawed. What of that? I am a man to some and a woman to others. Does this harm you?

[Farburg]

We need systems that primarily deal with a tiny minority of people with rare disorders at the expense of literally everyone else.

Question- how does allowing for more people within the system harm in any way literally anyone? Does accepting that there is varience harm you? My mother has a beard. Does that harm you? There is enough people who vary from the "standard" definition of both gender AND sex that the system is visibly flawed. What of that? I am a man to some and a woman to others. Does this harm you?

I just don’t want to have to use stupid pronouns, that’s all.
Or be forced to recognize some bullshit someone decided to identify as.

[Maxine IV]

The traditional sex-gender system is a clunky, outdate, oppressive system. You cannot always and accurately extrapolate one's gender and sexual orientation from one's sex, which here means a composite of physiological traits related to mammalian sexual reproduction, it's a construct that only directly contributes to sexism and transphobia, but it rode the coattails of racism and colonialism. Not all human societies constructed gender the same way.

What's your angle for upholding it? Do you not want to change your worldview? Being wrong is part of learning, and thus bettering yourself.

Even gender essentialism is a woke rebrand of it, some people try to look for something inward, when really gender is much more murky and complicated, and that's ok, gender only exists in a society. Do we live in a society? Yes. Only society can define it and redefine it, and who is society, you are, I am society, you are society, we are all society.

Just because it only works for 99.9% of the species doesn’t mean it’s oppressive.

So the vast majority imposing their views on a minority is not oppressive? How do you figure that?

Do you even understand your own argument? Because everything you say is so confused I can't work out if you are for or against half the time.

[Gremand]

Question- how does allowing for more people within the system harm in any way literally anyone? Does accepting that there is varience harm you? My mother has a beard. Does that harm you? There is enough people who vary from the "standard" definition of both gender AND sex that the system is visibly flawed. What of that? I am a man to some and a woman to others. Does this harm you?

I just don’t want to have to use stupid pronouns, that’s all.

Ah, then you should try using the commonly accepted for 500 years genderless pronoun they. I believe therein lies thine problem. Else, attempt to change thine worldview, unless you're fine taking the consequences for not using people's preferred pronouns. (Social isolation in certain circles, primarily.)

[Farburg]

I just don’t want to have to use stupid pronouns, that’s all.

Ah, then you should try using the commonly accepted for 500 years genderless pronoun they. I believe therein lies thine problem. Else, attempt to change thine worldview, unless you're fine taking the consequences for not using people's preferred pronouns. (Social isolation in certain circles, primarily.)

I can use they, but the problem is when they want us to say xie or xir.
If they try to push that bullshit on me I’d be tempted to call them an it.

I can’t beleive that it’s illegal to not play along with this shit in Ontario.

[Proctopeo]

I just don’t want to have to use stupid pronouns, that’s all.

Ah, then you should try using the commonly accepted for 500 years genderless pronoun they. I believe therein lies thine problem. Else, attempt to change thine worldview, unless you're fine taking the consequences for not using people's preferred pronouns. (Social isolation in certain circles, primarily.)

Tbf, though, it's unlikely they'd be in those circles, both due to their views and because those circles are quite simply few in number and small in size.
Are we talking neopronouns, specifically? Like, xer and zim and shit like that? Yeah, just use they.

[Maxine IV]

Ah, then you should try using the commonly accepted for 500 years genderless pronoun they. I believe therein lies thine problem. Else, attempt to change thine worldview, unless you're fine taking the consequences for not using people's preferred pronouns. (Social isolation in certain circles, primarily.)

I can use they, but the problem is when they want us to say xie or xir.
If they try to push that bullshit on me I’d be tempted to call them an it.

I can’t beleive that it’s illegal to not play along with this shit in Ontario.

Language evolves. New technologies, new concepts, new ideas, and language changes to reflect the times. Welcome to the 21st century.

[Farburg]

Ah, then you should try using the commonly accepted for 500 years genderless pronoun they. I believe therein lies thine problem. Else, attempt to change thine worldview, unless you're fine taking the consequences for not using people's preferred pronouns. (Social isolation in certain circles, primarily.)

Tbf, though, it's unlikely they'd be in those circles, both due to their views and because those circles are quite simply few in number and small in size.
Are we talking neopronouns, specifically? Like, xer and zim and shit like that? Yeah, just use they.

And if they still insist I soil my mouth with their idiocracy?

[Farburg]

I can use they, but the problem is when they want us to say xie or xir.
If they try to push that bullshit on me I’d be tempted to call them an it.

I can’t beleive that it’s illegal to not play along with this shit in Ontario.

Language evolves. New technologies, new concepts, new ideas, and language changes to reflect the times. Welcome to the 21st century.

I’m not letting identity politics and people wanting to be special and different in order to have purpose in their pathetic lives be what dictates the evolution of MY native language!

[Gremand]

Ah, then you should try using the commonly accepted for 500 years genderless pronoun they. I believe therein lies thine problem. Else, attempt to change thine worldview, unless you're fine taking the consequences for not using people's preferred pronouns. (Social isolation in certain circles, primarily.)

I can use they, but the problem is when they want us to say xie or xir.
If they try to push that bullshit on me I’d be tempted to call them an it.

I can’t beleive that it’s illegal to not play along with this shit in Ontario.

I tend to be of the opinion that xie and xir and stuff, neopronouns or the ilk, are quite good and useful for certain people. I have a particular question for u tho- why does this harm you? What is in this stuff that makes you so enraged? These are people trying to determine their own gender and identity, what is it for you to say they're wrong?

Language evolves. New technologies, new concepts, new ideas, and language changes to reflect the times. Welcome to the 21st century.

I’m not letting identity politics and people wanting to be special and different in order to have purpose in their pathetic lives be what dictates the evolution of MY native language!

Ah, i understand. Guess what, it's my language too. Just for you, i'd like you to call me xim. Anyone else can, but I'd greatly prefer it of you currently.

Besides, identity politics is no worse than y replacing the thorn because the printing press was weird.

[Farburg]

I can use they, but the problem is when they want us to say xie or xir.
If they try to push that bullshit on me I’d be tempted to call them an it.

I can’t beleive that it’s illegal to not play along with this shit in Ontario.

I tend to be of the opinion that xie and xir and stuff, neopronouns or the ilk, are quite good and useful for certain people. I have a particular question for u tho- why does this harm you? What is in this stuff that makes you so enraged? These are people trying to determine their own gender and identity, what is it for you to say they're wrong?

I’m not letting identity politics and people wanting to be special and different in order to have purpose in their pathetic lives be what dictates the evolution of MY native language!

Ah, i understand. Guess what, it's my language too. Just for you, i'd like you to call me xim. Anyone else can, but I'd greatly prefer it of you currently.

Languages can diverge into separate languages.
You go speak your dialect and I’ll speak mine.

[Farburg]

I can use they, but the problem is when they want us to say xie or xir.
If they try to push that bullshit on me I’d be tempted to call them an it.

I can’t beleive that it’s illegal to not play along with this shit in Ontario.

I tend to be of the opinion that xie and xir and stuff, neopronouns or the ilk, are quite good and useful for certain people. I have a particular question for u tho- why does this harm you? What is in this stuff that makes you so enraged? These are people trying to determine their own gender and identity, what is it for you to say they're wrong?

I’m not letting identity politics and people wanting to be special and different in order to have purpose in their pathetic lives be what dictates the evolution of MY native language!

Ah, i understand. Guess what, it's my language too. Just for you, i'd like you to call me xim. Anyone else can, but I'd greatly prefer it of you currently.

Besides, identity politics is no worse than y replacing the thorn because the printing press was weird.

It doesn’t realize that if gender really is this fluid and meaningless than having it at all is just a nuisance that in some cases can be used as a weapon against normal people to kick them out of their positions for not being up to date on the latest BS pronouns.

[Gremand]

Farburg, why did you reply to the same post twice? I'd just compile the replies into one post. Also, i'm totally fine with divergent languages. Have a nice day in that regard

I tend to be of the opinion that xie and xir and stuff, neopronouns or the ilk, are quite good and useful for certain people. I have a particular question for u tho- why does this harm you? What is in this stuff that makes you so enraged? These are people trying to determine their own gender and identity, what is it for you to say they're wrong?



Ah, i understand. Guess what, it's my language too. Just for you, i'd like you to call me xim. Anyone else can, but I'd greatly prefer it of you currently.

Besides, identity politics is no worse than y replacing the thorn because the printing press was weird.

It doesn’t realize that if gender really is this fluid and meaningless than having it at all is just a nuisance that in some cases can be used as a weapon against normal people to kick them out of their positions for not being up to date on the latest BS pronouns.

Literally if one asks you to use a certain set of pronouns and you don't, then that's on you. It's like if you called an androgenous-looking kid a girl and they told you they're a boy, and you kept calling them a boy. To use my mom again, it's as if you continued to call my mom a man even after she told you she was a woman. And guess what? Human's also a social construct. We keep these things around because they are useful, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't change them! There are hundreds of different definitions for the word "nationalist," but that doesn't mean nationalist is a useless word!

[Khasinkonia]

I tend to be of the opinion that xie and xir and stuff, neopronouns or the ilk, are quite good and useful for certain people. I have a particular question for u tho- why does this harm you? What is in this stuff that makes you so enraged? These are people trying to determine their own gender and identity, what is it for you to say they're wrong?



Ah, i understand. Guess what, it's my language too. Just for you, i'd like you to call me xim. Anyone else can, but I'd greatly prefer it of you currently.

Besides, identity politics is no worse than y replacing the thorn because the printing press was weird.

It doesn’t realize that if gender really is this fluid and meaningless than having it at all is just a nuisance that in some cases can be used as a weapon against normal people to kick them out of their positions for not being up to date on the latest BS pronouns.

I frankly don’t know why we even bother with the three different first person pronouns. He(men), she(women and ships), it(non-human life and inanimate objects). I think animate versus inanimate or just one would suffice, from a pragmatic linguistic perspective.

[Farburg]

Farburg, why did you reply to the same post twice? I'd just compile the replies into one post. Also, i'm totally fine with divergent languages. Have a nice day in that regard

It doesn’t realize that if gender really is this fluid and meaningless than having it at all is just a nuisance that in some cases can be used as a weapon against normal people to kick them out of their positions for not being up to date on the latest BS pronouns.

Literally if one asks you to use a certain set of pronouns and you don't, then that's on you. It's like if you called an androgenous-looking kid a girl and they told you they're a boy, and you kept calling them a boy. To use my mom again, it's as if you continued to call my mom a man even after she told you she was a woman. And guess what? Human's also a social construct. We keep these things around because they are useful, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't change them! There are hundreds of different definitions for the word "nationalist," but that doesn't mean nationalist is a useless word!

Nationalism is supposed to confusing and murky,
Nations weren’t around until humans started building them.
It’s just if everyone decides to be these androgynous things how the hell are we supposed to reproduce? Many countries are having birthdate problems and this doesn’t help.

[Farburg]

It doesn’t realize that if gender really is this fluid and meaningless than having it at all is just a nuisance that in some cases can be used as a weapon against normal people to kick them out of their positions for not being up to date on the latest BS pronouns.

I frankly don’t know why we even bother with the three different first person pronouns. He(men), she(women and ships), it(non-human life and inanimate objects). I think animate versus inanimate or just one would suffice, from a pragmatic linguistic perspective.

I’ll admit, removing all gender from the language sounds better than pumping it full with all of the new fake ones.

[Khasinkonia]

Farburg, why did you reply to the same post twice? I'd just compile the replies into one post. Also, i'm totally fine with divergent languages. Have a nice day in that regard



Literally if one asks you to use a certain set of pronouns and you don't, then that's on you. It's like if you called an androgenous-looking kid a girl and they told you they're a boy, and you kept calling them a boy. To use my mom again, it's as if you continued to call my mom a man even after she told you she was a woman. And guess what? Human's also a social construct. We keep these things around because they are useful, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't change them! There are hundreds of different definitions for the word "nationalist," but that doesn't mean nationalist is a useless word!

Nationalism is supposed to confusing and murky,
Nations weren’t around until humans started building them.
It’s just if everyone decides to be these androgynous things how the hell are we supposed to reproduce? Many countries are having birthdate problems and this doesn’t help.

I don’t know that androgyny has much to do with birthrate problems so much as broad cultural and economic shifts that make having families and/or children less appealing and/or less feasible to the average person.

[Gremand]

Farburg, why did you reply to the same post twice? I'd just compile the replies into one post. Also, i'm totally fine with divergent languages. Have a nice day in that regard



Literally if one asks you to use a certain set of pronouns and you don't, then that's on you. It's like if you called an androgenous-looking kid a girl and they told you they're a boy, and you kept calling them a boy. To use my mom again, it's as if you continued to call my mom a man even after she told you she was a woman. And guess what? Human's also a social construct. We keep these things around because they are useful, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't change them! There are hundreds of different definitions for the word "nationalist," but that doesn't mean nationalist is a useless word!

Nationalism is supposed to confusing and murky,
Nations weren’t around until humans started building them.
It’s just if everyone decides to be these androgynous things how the hell are we supposed to reproduce? Many countries are having birthdate problems and this doesn’t help.

Is there any evidence that this hurts people reproducing? Besides, can we not simply woo those who we wish? How is that any different than normal wooing?

Besides, gender and sex didn't exist before humans defined them. Same as nationalism.

[Farburg]

Nationalism is supposed to confusing and murky,
Nations weren’t around until humans started building them.
It’s just if everyone decides to be these androgynous things how the hell are we supposed to reproduce? Many countries are having birthdate problems and this doesn’t help.

Is there any evidence that this hurts people reproducing? Besides, can we not simply woo those who we wish? How is that any different than normal wooing?

Besides, gender and sex didn't exist before humans defined them. Same as nationalism.

Mammals have had two sexes for millions of years