2019 Cuban Democratic Constitutional Referendum

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

A promise is a promise, no matter who says it, whether it is President Trump or Jair Bolsonaro or Vladimir Putin or even Xi Jinping, and if you constantly hammer your opponent on her neoconservative thirst for war and bloodshed abroad, then one would expect you to have a spine and stick up for your isolationist beliefs, but unfortunately, the MIC got to Pres. Trump as well.

I would support him in the event he ordered a complete withdrawal from Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Cuba, etc, and actually stuck firmly to it, regardless of him being a Republican or Democrat. Peace does not choose ideologies, and anything which sabotages the neocon consensus that "warmongering is good" is a honorable thing to do in my book.

Although I want to greatly downsize our forces deployed in the Middle East, withdrawal does not magically create peace you know. Many times it creates more conflicts.

Our involvement in Yemen and Syria is certainly justified. The Houthis and Assad can get fucked.

[Novus America]

Although I want to greatly downsize our forces deployed in the Middle East, withdrawal does not magically create peace you know. Many times it creates more conflicts.

Our involvement in Yemen and Syria is certainly justified. The Houthis and Assad can get fucked.

Well our involvement in Yemen is largely through proxies. Which is how to to the Middle East.
The Houthis as horrible of course, and Assad is a monster, but we are stuck with him.

Though we do need to ensure the Kurds are protected from Assad and Erdogan.

I am not saying all our involvement is unjustified.

Just that we need to start reducing our invest. There is absolutely nothing good about the Middle East and it will never give us anything good.

[Ransium]

The "MIC" (whatever the fuck that is) didn't get to Trump; he was always a liar. He lied throughout his campaign, he lied before he started running, and he's still lying now. That's what he does - he's a pathological liar. Honestly if you really expected a greedy, self-absorbed egotist to be some proponent for peace then you only have yourself to blame for being that naive.

MIC = Military-Industrial Complex and affiliated lobbyists. The ones who profit the most from a US-backed protracted war abroad and also in some cases, oil. And I was merely hammering the hypocrisy of Trump to "La Habana Cuba" regarding his flipflopping on warmongering when he made it the cardinal contrast between him and Shillary in '16. I am well aware Drumpf is a pathological liar, heck, I call out his youtube loyalist commenters on it every day when I get the opportunity.

We've formerly warned you that using these sort of cutsie insulting political nicknames is trolling as per site rules and I am doing so here again. *** Warned for trolling (via political nicknames) ***. It is, IMO, a silly thing to get banned for, but if you keep it up that's what will happen.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia]

Although I want to greatly downsize our forces deployed in the Middle East, withdrawal does not magically create peace you know. Many times it creates more conflicts.

Our involvement in Yemen and Syria is certainly justified. The Houthis and Assad can get fucked.

Problem is that the bulk of the opposition against Bashar-al Assad and the SAA are either Al-Nusra islamists, sunni jihadists (HTS and their ilk), or plain good ol turkish backed Neo-Ottomanist guerillas in Afrin and Northern Syria (Grey Wolves and TFSA), and the Kurds are no more closer to marching into Damascus than we are closer to overthrowing China's authoritarian technocratic government. And Yemen?

Millions of civilians are projected to starve there the more we keep up the blockade of Hodeidah and indiscriminately support the Saudis (Who are an islamofascist Wahhabi theocracy who routinely lynch their citizens in the streets whenever they start protesting for their basic rights) in their mass bombing, not to mention a cholera outbreak is spreading there rapidly and the Houthis are still going strong despite a 4 year long involvement.

Hence the recent Senate-backed resolution to withdraw all US involvement in Yemen and work towards an immediate ceasefire and national reconciliation. Or do you want another Vietnam-style quagmire?

[Novus America]

Our involvement in Yemen and Syria is certainly justified. The Houthis and Assad can get fucked.

Problem is that the bulk of the opposition against Bashar-al Assad and the SAA are either Al-Nusra islamists, sunni jihadists (HTS and their ilk), or plain good ol turkish backed Neo-Ottomanist guerillas in Afrin and Northern Syria (Grey Wolves and TFSA), and the Kurds are no more closer to marching into Damascus than we are closer to overthrowing China's authoritarian technocratic government. And Yemen?

Millions of civilians are projected to starve there the more we keep up the blockade of Hodeidah and indiscriminately support the Saudis (Who are an islamofascist Wahhabi theocracy who routinely lynch their citizens in the streets whenever they start protesting for their basic rights) in their mass bombing, not to mention a cholera outbreak is spreading there rapidly and the Houthis are still going strong despite a 4 year long involvement.

Hence the recent Senate-backed resolution to withdraw all US involvement in Yemen and work towards an immediate ceasefire and national reconciliation. Or do you want another Vietnam-style quagmire?

This is a topic for another thread though.
Point remains withdrawing from places or refusing to get involved does not always create a better outcome. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it does not.

Non intervention (especially when your enemies are intervening, see Venezuela) is not an axiomatic good, nor axiomatic bad.

Intervention is sometimes needed, sometimes not.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia]

Problem is that the bulk of the opposition against Bashar-al Assad and the SAA are either Al-Nusra islamists, sunni jihadists (HTS and their ilk), or plain good ol turkish backed Neo-Ottomanist guerillas in Afrin and Northern Syria (Grey Wolves and TFSA), and the Kurds are no more closer to marching into Damascus than we are closer to overthrowing China's authoritarian technocratic government. And Yemen?

Millions of civilians are projected to starve there the more we keep up the blockade of Hodeidah and indiscriminately support the Saudis (Who are an islamofascist Wahhabi theocracy who routinely lynch their citizens in the streets whenever they start protesting for their basic rights) in their mass bombing, not to mention a cholera outbreak is spreading there rapidly and the Houthis are still going strong despite a 4 year long involvement.

Hence the recent Senate-backed resolution to withdraw all US involvement in Yemen and work towards an immediate ceasefire and national reconciliation. Or do you want another Vietnam-style quagmire?

This is a topic for another thread though.
Point remains withdrawing from places or refusing to get involved does not always create a better outcome. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it does not.

Ah, my apologies, Novus. Got a little bit off topic when I saw Trollzyn justify continued involvement in Syria and Yemen (Despite the fact we had our asses handed over to us by Assad's rapid rebounding and reconsolidation of power) and couldn't keep myself from a rebuttal. Let's return back to the topic at hand: Cuba. Invade or not?

[Novus America]

This is a topic for another thread though.
Point remains withdrawing from places or refusing to get involved does not always create a better outcome. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it does not.

Ah, my apologies, Novus. Got a little bit off topic when I saw Trollzyn justify continued involvement in Syria and Yemen (Despite the fact we had our asses handed over to us by Assad's rapid rebounding and resconsolidation of power) and couldn't keep myself from a rebuttal. Let's return back to the topic at hand: Cuba. Invade or not?

Well there are other options besides invading or not.
As much as it would be good for the US to have the Castro regime gone, I do not think an invasion is in the cards at this time.

This new Constitution is still bad, but hopefully still weakens the ruling party.
The ruling part hopefully makes a big mistake here and shoots itself in the foot.

Combined with the reduction in Venezuelan subsidies it might actually get the regime to really change. Without actual military involvement.

[Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores]

Uruguayan Secretary General of the OAS Organization of American states, statement on Cuba's new democratic constitution, Single party regime It's not democracy, it's dictatorship. Single-party regime violates fundamental rights to freedom of expression and association. Single party regime is a violation of all human rights conventions of the Inter-American system.
https://twitter.com/Almagro_OEA2015

The revolutionary Cuban government as it calls itself on its website, reacted as expected, denouncing the Secretary General of the OAS as not having the moral authority to criticize Cuba and claiming its democratic nature.

Now they need to follow it up with the same policy on Cuba as they have with Venezuela, option 9 on the poll. As your OP Thread Host, I thank all those who have posted and voted so far pro and con and those who will do so, I thank the 5 voters so far who voted for option 5 on the poll and those who will do so, thank you for the 43 votes so far.

[Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores]

Euro Deputy Beatriz Becerra, Vice President of the Sub Commission on Human Rights of the European Parliament. on Twitter:

I am posting this post on my Cuba thread and the Venezuelan thread as well because it relates to both threads. We have a historical responsibility, the responsibility to protect. It's not that it can #Venezuela end up like #Cuba: It can end up much worse. We must be next to Venezuelans and those who defend them.
https://twitter.com/beatrizbecerrab

I second this Tweet.

[Novus America]

Euro Deputy Beatriz Becerra, Vice President of the Sub Commission on Human Rights of the European Parliament. on Twitter:

I am posting this post on my Cuba thread and the Venezuelan thread as well because it relates to both threads. We have a historical responsibility, the responsibility to protect. It's not that it can #Venezuela end up like #Cuba: It can end up much worse. We must be next to Venezuelans and those who defend them.
https://twitter.com/beatrizbecerrab

I second this Tweet.

Hopefully the EU will put more pressure on Cuba as well as Venezuela.

[Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores]

In the Cuban Democratic Constitutional Referendum, voters had to write yes or no with a pencil, and no private booth which lends itself to potential voter fraud and intimidation to vote yes or change the vote to yes.

[Novus America]

In the Cuban Democratic Constitutional Referendum, voters had to write yes or no with a pencil, and no private booth which lends itself to potential voter fraud and intimidation to vote yes or change the vote to yes.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.miamih ... 40775.html
Good news is despite the blatantly unfair nature of the vote (also campaigning against was banned) almost a quarter voted against or abstained, despite the risk of government retribution.
It seems opposition to the government might be growing.

[The New California Republic]

Most of the opposition to the new Constitution actually seemed to be religious rather than anything else:

9% of voters opposed ratification and 4.15% spoiled or left ballots blank. Turnout was 84.4%

the state was met with a surprisingly forceful challenge from an unofficial campaign against the new constitution.

Evangelical churches concerned that the new constitution would create a pathway towards gay marriage hung banners reading “marriage: man + woman” from church walls, while religious activists daubed posters on lamp posts – a direct challenge to the state’s monopoly on public space.

Although pastors did not explicitly call for a “no” vote, analysts say the church campaign mobilised non-religious, socially conservative sectors of the population to vote against the new constitution.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... nstitution

[Novus America]

Most of the opposition to the new Constitution actually seemed to be religious rather than anything else:

9% of voters opposed ratification and 4.15% spoiled or left ballots blank. Turnout was 84.4%

the state was met with a surprisingly forceful challenge from an unofficial campaign against the new constitution.

Evangelical churches concerned that the new constitution would create a pathway towards gay marriage hung banners reading “marriage: man + woman” from church walls, while religious activists daubed posters on lamp posts – a direct challenge to the state’s monopoly on public space.

Although pastors did not explicitly call for a “no” vote, analysts say the church campaign mobilised non-religious, socially conservative sectors of the population to vote against the new constitution.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... nstitution

Although the reasoning might be dubious, the very fact an illegal campaign can challenge the state shows the state’s control might be slipping.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Pretty irrelevant if you ask me. As long as the commies stay in power, any referendum or election will neither be free nor fair, and they're not inclined to follow their constitution anyway.

[Helensburgh]

I hope this brings about genuine democratisation in Cuba. It's an OK start.

[Hediacrana]

Most of the opposition to the new Constitution actually seemed to be religious rather than anything else:

9% of voters opposed ratification and 4.15% spoiled or left ballots blank. Turnout was 84.4%

the state was met with a surprisingly forceful challenge from an unofficial campaign against the new constitution.

Evangelical churches concerned that the new constitution would create a pathway towards gay marriage hung banners reading “marriage: man + woman” from church walls, while religious activists daubed posters on lamp posts – a direct challenge to the state’s monopoly on public space.

Although pastors did not explicitly call for a “no” vote, analysts say the church campaign mobilised non-religious, socially conservative sectors of the population to vote against the new constitution.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... nstitution

I read elsewhere that the same-sex marriage amendment was removed from the version that was voted upon. Sadly.

Bit odd that that Guardian article doesn't mention that; now I'm not sure whether it was or was not included.

[Sicaris]

Kick out the Commies, I say.

Bay of Pigs should have been a proper invasion.

The US under President Trump should do a naval blockade of Cuba, nothing goes in, nothing goes out until the Cuban dictatorship regime falls from within and without. With the fall of the Maduro regime in Venezuela and the Castro, Diaz-Canel regime in Cuba, it will make Florida a Republican state for sure in 2020.

C O N T R A D E A L 2 . 0

The true way:

Step 1. Naval blockade Cuba, same as you said.

Step 2. Fund and arm American-supporting rebel groups

Step 3. Train these rebels

Step 4. Tactically insert US special forces to assist the rebels and depose the current Cuban government

Step 5. D E M O C R A C Y

[Sicaris]

Most of the opposition to the new Constitution actually seemed to be religious rather than anything else:

Although the reasoning might be dubious, the very fact an illegal campaign can challenge the state shows the state’s control might be slipping.

New Contra Deal? New Contra Deal.

[Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores]

I hope this brings about genuine democratisation in Cuba. It's an OK start.

lol, i'm having a lol attack,

[Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores]

As a native Cuban and American citizen I follow Cuba news closely for obvious reasons. I must be the only Cuban on NS, lol, but I find that hard to believe.

Your OP Thread Host GLC - MS - Alberto

[Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores]

I will post the official results of the Cuban Democratic Constitutional Referendum later today.
https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201902 ... ic-system/
An interesting read pro and con.

https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201902 ... ic-system/:

The new Cuban constitution will introduce limits preventing presidents from serving more than two five-year terms and will recognize private property.

"Cuba has been making important changes to its economic system, whereby the state has become increasingly decentralized and [is] opening up certain sections of the economy such as small enterprises, barber shops, restaurants, beauty parlors, etc., so that instead of the state having that onerous responsibility of trying to manage these very small enterprises, [they will be in the hands] of local entrepreneurs," August added. "

While it sounds good the way they say it for world wide propaganda reasons, I say most of these so called small self employed Cuentapropista private businesses are timbiriches, rinky-dink businesses, Cubans in Cuba like my family still in Cuba are not allowed to invest in Cuba even if they have the money to do so, like on the Mariel free trade zone. The socialism, communism is for the masses, while capitalism is for the military led privileged governing socialist elite,
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1151276

Fidel Castro's son on vacation in Turkey, see the pics, lol, viva the revolution.
http://www.therealcuba.com/?p=540

"While the regime claims Sunday's vote was democratic, Cuban authorities harassed and detained dozens of observers and peaceful protesters, confiscating phones and devices," Pompeo said. "Earlier this month, more than 120 activists initiated a hunger strike to send a message to the regime that the Cuban people reject these oppressive tactics. We strongly condemn these attempts to silence peaceful protests, which show that Cuba's leaders fear the Cuban people."

At the past OAS summit of the Americas an organized group of Cuban government supporters in Lima City Peru, chanted, Cuba must be respected, Cuba must be respected, out with the with Gusano worms, out with the Gusano worms, out with the Gusanera, I am sure they are members of the Committees for the Defense of the Revolution CDRs, which engage in these organized acts of repudiation to any one who dares disagree with the government or the revolution on any issues in Cuba and outside of Cuba, citizen or foreigner.

Recently at UN meeting on Human rights and political prisoners in Cuba, Cuban diplomats shouted and pounded on the desks so American, OAS officials and Cuban Americans could not be heard, a group of CDR members also protested. According to the Cuban government their are no political prisoners in Cuba, only anti social, anti democratic, counter revolutionaries.

These are the type of people and governments we are dealing with in Venezuela and Cuba.

Scroll down to the videos:
https://www.breitbart.com/national-secu ... mit-event/

[Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores]

Now according to Alina Balseiro Gutiérrez, Presidenta of the National Electoral Commission Cen.
" that after the process of validating the updated lists of voters, the electoral roll was 8,705,723 people, of whom 7 848 343 - 90.15 percent exercised their right to vote 90.15 1535 9493 9788 %

According to Alina Balseiro Gutiérrez, Presidenta of the National Electoral Commission Cen.
The Final actualized list results are the same, except that 592 554 were deducted from the 9 298 277, apparently because most were listed twice and voted in other places because they were doing special work in schools and hospitals, ect, ect, ect, including about 5 000 or so deaths.

They report both results, the preliminary results and the final official results one day after, so you take your pick? lol.

6 816 169 voted Yes - 78.29 5266 2288 9334 %

0 706 400 voted No - 09.00 0625 9920 08759 % every number counts when you are desperate for support lol.

0 198 674 blank ballots - 02.53 1413 3187 0944 %

0 905 074 voted No and Blank ballots 905 074 - 11.53 2039 3107 182 %

0 127 100 annulled ballots 01.61 9450 1183 2433 9 %

Only 0 857 380 did not vote out of 8 705 723 - 9.84 8464 0506 0211 5 %

706 400 No Ballots * 198 674 Blank Ballots - 905 074 out of
706 400 No Ballots * 198 674 Blank Ballots - 905 074 out of

0 706 400 No Ballots + 198 674 Blank Ballots + 857 380 did not vote -
1 762 454 Ballots out of 8 705 723 - 20.24 4774 6155 0293 %



I love math and statistics, I love doing this kind of stuff. Here are the Preliminary actualized list results of the 2019 Cuban Democratic Constitutional Referendum Election on Sunday February 24 2019

6 816 169 voted yes - 73.30 % - 73.30 5721 0491 7933 %

706 400 voted No - 07.59 % - 07.59 7106 4316 5395 1 % every number counts lol.

1 449 934 did not vote 15.59 % - 15.59 3577 1756 4233 %

198 674 blank ballots 02.13 % - 02.13 % - 02.13 6675 4292 2199 5 %

2 355 008 voted No Blank Ballots and did not vote - 25.32 % - 25.32 7356 0365 1827 %

0 127 100 annulled ballots - 00.13 % - 00.13 6691 9914 3024 %

7 843 343 Participated 84.35 % - 84.35 2649 4209 6261 % of which

6 816 169 voted Yes - 86.90 % - 86.90 3875 0440 9791 %

0 706 400 voted No - 09.00 - 9.00 6363 7405 6317 6 % every number counts lol.

0 198 674 blank ballots - 02.53 % - 2.53 3027 0523 6284 9 %

0 127 100 annulled ballots - 00.16 % - 00.16 1920 7524 1386 23 %

1 449 934 did not vote out of 9 298 277 - 15.59 3577 1756 4233 %

According to Alina Balseiro Gutiérrez, Presidenta of the National Electoral Commission Cen.
The Final actualized list results are the same, except that 592 554 were deducted from the 9 298 277, apparently because most were listed twice and voted in other places because they were doing special work in schools and hospitalis, ect, including about 5 000 or so deaths.

9 298 277 - 592 554 - 8 705 723

"Balseiro explained that on this occasion there were a significant number of people included because they exercised their vote in a place other than their residence or in the 198 special schools that were enabled in places of high concentration of people such as air terminals, buses and railways, boarding schools and shelters, among others.

The president of the CEN pointed out that these results include those of the vote cast abroad by Cubans who are fulfilling a state mission." Cuban News Agency Source.
http://www.cubanews.acn.cu/cuba/9087-cu ... referendum

Also, the number of eligible voters is about 650,000 to 700,000 higher than about a year ago, that sounds too high in one year.

So what do you think? voter fraud or circumstances beyond their control like the explanation given above? I say voter fraud. According to Alina they checked the system before the election with thousands of Cubans to avoid errors on election day, don't you think they had time to make an actual list of voters? I think so.

the 1 449 934 did not vote 15.59 % - 15.59 3577 1756 4233 % and those that voted No have 0 elected representatives in the Cuban Parliament, 00.00 %

My Personal favorite was during the Varela Constitutional Referendum initiative when according to Fidel and the government 99 % of Cuban voters signed a constitutional petition amendment declaring Cuba's socialist, economic, political and cultural system irrevocable also included in the new democratic constitution of 2019.

During which time at least 75 Cuban political dissidents were arrested, and Oswaldo Payá Sardiñas head of the Varela Project was supposedly killed by the Cuban government.

https://revolutionarycommunist.org/amer ... g-sep-2002

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varela_Project

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswaldo_Payá