[PASSED] Command Responsibility

[Vaxian Imperium]

”I know I’ve already said I’m iffy on this,” said Tokiko, not really expecting this to go very well, ”But he makes a point. Our old Tengo enemies where the kind of people who’d throw children into battle. Said children sung as they killed us, smiled as we killed them, and generally showed no signs of compassion, remorse, or free will. They built walls out of the corpses of their own dead, sent out child suicide bombers, and I think it was all because their leaders had absolute control and wanted to drive us all crazy. I’d make a case that such opponents shouldn’t be considered to have any rights, and that any kind of so-called atrocity against ‘em should be justified.”

"Right. Meeting atrocity with atrocity is the best way to solve a complicated problem. Ambassador, have you considered that maybe, just maybe, using the same tactics makes you as bad as your enemy? Or that, having free will and choosing barbarity, you're even worse than your enemy?"

"They are a hive mind, we have tried and they cannot be reasoned with they only wish to consume and feel no remorse, what are we to do? Try to talk it out when our last attempts have ended in complete slaughter of our people and we can't jsut leave them along as they crash aganist our rimworlds relentlessly. We have no other chocie"

Vaktus

[Separatist Peoples]

"Right. Meeting atrocity with atrocity is the best way to solve a complicated problem. Ambassador, have you considered that maybe, just maybe, using the same tactics makes you as bad as your enemy? Or that, having free will and choosing barbarity, you're even worse than your enemy?"

"They are a hive mind, we have tried and they cannot be reasoned with they only wish to consume and feel no remorse, what are we to do? Try to talk it out when our last attempts have ended in complete slaughter of our people and we can't jsut leave them along as they crash aganist our rimworlds relentlessly. We have no other chocie"

Vaktus

"Not commit war crimes. That's what I'd like you all to do."

[Kyoki Chudoku]

Tokiko took out her knife, and pointed it at her eyepatch. ”I’ve been a diplomat for a while, but never did much diplomacy. Only got my current job after the Nightmare. Do you want to know what happened to me during that Nightmare? One of those little blighters gouged my eye out, and I was one of the lucky ones. It’s easy for you to act all high-and-mighty when as the one who’s job it is to negotiate with people. Yeah. Try negotiation on them, see where it gets you. Play nice with the kids who pretend to be your own troops just to ambush you, the soldiers who have no food on them because they’re expected to die en masse, singing and smiling and committing genocide as they resort to cannibalising each other ‘cause that’s the only rations they’re gonna get. Be gentle with the people using agony beams that leave you in overwhelming pain, having a seizure every five seconds for months on end, from an instant of exposure. Don’t be too hard on the people who melted entire cities apart. I couldn’t be as bad as them if I tried to, ambassador. I take offence to your characterisation of such situations as a complicated problem. It’s a very simple one. Do everything you can to survive and struggle to fight them off, or die a gruesome, agonising death. Atrocity or not, which option do you reckon I’m gonna pick? Oh, right, special pleading, isn’t it? Let’s just condemn everyone involved! Oh, except the what, hundred million fatalities on our side? Can’t really go after them because they’re dead. You can’t just ignore situations like this. Rare or not, special or not, they happen, and I’ll tell you now, I’d rather have a few sanctions than no defence force.”

"Ambassador, I believe you've told most of this story before.

"I am not ignoring these situations. I am making an ethical decision that they do not outweigh the need for commanders to be responsible for their illegal actions."

”Then someone really needs to make some kind of proposal to point out that some beings don’t deserve to have war crimes against them brought into consideration.”

[Separatist Peoples]

"Ambassador, I believe you've told most of this story before.

"I am not ignoring these situations. I am making an ethical decision that they do not outweigh the need for commanders to be responsible for their illegal actions."

”Then someone really needs to make some kind of proposal to point out that some beings don’t deserve to have war crimes against them brought into consideration.”

"And how on earth would you define that so as to avoid that being abused? Assuming, ad arguendum, that it wasn't a terrible idea."

[Elyreia]

Tokiko took out her knife, and pointed it at her eyepatch. ”I’ve been a diplomat for a while, but never did much diplomacy. Only got my current job after the Nightmare. Do you want to know what happened to me during that Nightmare? One of those little blighters gouged my eye out, and I was one of the lucky ones. It’s easy for you to act all high-and-mighty when as the one who’s job it is to negotiate with people. Yeah. Try negotiation on them, see where it gets you. Play nice with the kids who pretend to be your own troops just to ambush you, the soldiers who have no food on them because they’re expected to die en masse, singing and smiling and committing genocide as they resort to cannibalising each other ‘cause that’s the only rations they’re gonna get. Be gentle with the people using agony beams that leave you in overwhelming pain, having a seizure every five seconds for months on end, from an instant of exposure. Don’t be too hard on the people who melted entire cities apart. I couldn’t be as bad as them if I tried to, ambassador. I take offence to your characterisation of such situations as a complicated problem. It’s a very simple one. Do everything you can to survive and struggle to fight them off, or die a gruesome, agonising death. Atrocity or not, which option do you reckon I’m gonna pick? Oh, right, special pleading, isn’t it? Let’s just condemn everyone involved! Oh, except the what, hundred million fatalities on our side? Can’t really go after them because they’re dead. You can’t just ignore situations like this. Rare or not, special or not, they happen, and I’ll tell you now, I’d rather have a few sanctions than no defence force.”

OOC: *dusts off old forum RPer gloves, deep breath*

Korus gave a fleeting smile as they brushed the white bangs from over their left eye, in the process exposing a long scar over the eye which is a discolored icy blue in contrast to the golden pigment of their other eye."All Elyreians serve compulsory military service, darling. I started mine at age fifteen and completed my oath at nineteen. I took two additional years of training to serve in the Elyreian Princely Navy. I rose my way to Commodore and served as command of the destroyer DLE Vaelans, a strong honor to serve on the ship of my family's namekeep. I was there when the traitor sabotagued our first experimental railgun test fire from its cruiser, where dozens were slain, hundreds maimed, and yet somehow I and a few of my bridge crew survived the catastrophe that happens when the superstructure of a naval vessel becomes a 5000 ton shrapnel grenade."

Korus combed down the bangs a bit to cover the eye - self consciously, perhaps? - before they resumed. "Not all diplomats are pretty butterflies, Ambassador. After all, the deepest scars are the ones we cannot see on the outside. Elyreia will continue following the TRV, and hope that those who commit warcrimes against us will feel the mercy of their gods when we retaliate. Besides, I think the two opponents are missing something. Unless you plan on raping, enslaving, or torturing your hiveminded enemies, not sure you'll be committing warcrimes... Nothing in this legislation is stating you cannot continue with wanton slaughter of enemy combatants, after all..."

[The Marconian State]

Our military at TMS may not be very big, but I'm sure military forces of any size can understand what it means to commit war crimes, and why we should be enacting legislation that helps make sure less of them happen. I know a few of the nations in my region would do well to follow this likely-to-be-passed bill. For the sanity and mental well-being of our soldiers, please, thank you.

[Vaxian Imperium]

"There is no use fighting this law as it will be passed with no doubt as the votes are overwhelmingly in favor of it. Speaking of things that our overwhelming I would love if you would check the market we Vaxians have a great new offer for everyone"

Vaktus

[Elyreia]

"There is no use fighting this law as it will be passed with no doubt as the votes are overwhelmingly in favor of it. Speaking of things that our overwhelming I would love if you would check the market we Vaxians have a great new offer for everyone"

Vaktus

Well, again, unless you plan on raping, enslaving or torturing them... Killing enemy combatants with weapons is not a war crime. War crimes are warcrimes, warfare is something different.

[Kyoki Chudoku]

”Then someone really needs to make some kind of proposal to point out that some beings don’t deserve to have war crimes against them brought into consideration.”

"And how on earth would you define that so as to avoid that being abused? Assuming, ad arguendum, that it wasn't a terrible idea."

”If I felt qualified to answer that, ambassador, I’d be writing the thing up instead of sitting around here.”

Tokiko took out her knife, and pointed it at her eyepatch. ”I’ve been a diplomat for a while, but never did much diplomacy. Only got my current job after the Nightmare. Do you want to know what happened to me during that Nightmare? One of those little blighters gouged my eye out, and I was one of the lucky ones. It’s easy for you to act all high-and-mighty when as the one who’s job it is to negotiate with people. Yeah. Try negotiation on them, see where it gets you. Play nice with the kids who pretend to be your own troops just to ambush you, the soldiers who have no food on them because they’re expected to die en masse, singing and smiling and committing genocide as they resort to cannibalising each other ‘cause that’s the only rations they’re gonna get. Be gentle with the people using agony beams that leave you in overwhelming pain, having a seizure every five seconds for months on end, from an instant of exposure. Don’t be too hard on the people who melted entire cities apart. I couldn’t be as bad as them if I tried to, ambassador. I take offence to your characterisation of such situations as a complicated problem. It’s a very simple one. Do everything you can to survive and struggle to fight them off, or die a gruesome, agonising death. Atrocity or not, which option do you reckon I’m gonna pick? Oh, right, special pleading, isn’t it? Let’s just condemn everyone involved! Oh, except the what, hundred million fatalities on our side? Can’t really go after them because they’re dead. You can’t just ignore situations like this. Rare or not, special or not, they happen, and I’ll tell you now, I’d rather have a few sanctions than no defence force.”

OOC: *dusts off old forum RPer gloves, deep breath*

Korus gave a fleeting smile as they brushed the white bangs from over their left eye, in the process exposing a long scar over the eye which is a discolored icy blue in contrast to the golden pigment of their other eye."All Elyreians serve compulsory military service, darling. I started mine at age fifteen and completed my oath at nineteen. I took two additional years of training to serve in the Elyreian Princely Navy. I rose my way to Commodore and served as command of the destroyer DLE Vaelans, a strong honor to serve on the ship of my family's namekeep. I was there when the traitor sabotagued our first experimental railgun test fire from its cruiser, where dozens were slain, hundreds maimed, and yet somehow I and a few of my bridge crew survived the catastrophe that happens when the superstructure of a naval vessel becomes a 5000 ton shrapnel grenade."

Korus combed down the bangs a bit to cover the eye - self consciously, perhaps? - before they resumed. "Not all diplomats are pretty butterflies, Ambassador. After all, the deepest scars are the ones we cannot see on the outside. Elyreia will continue following the TRV, and hope that those who commit warcrimes against us will feel the mercy of their gods when we retaliate. Besides, I think the two opponents are missing something. Unless you plan on raping, enslaving, or torturing your hiveminded enemies, not sure you'll be committing warcrimes... Nothing in this legislation is stating you cannot continue with wanton slaughter of enemy combatants, after all..."

Tokiko listened to Korus speak. The tale of a ship turning into a death trap reminded her of what’d happened to the unfortunate soldiers who’d been caught out at sea. Tengokuren combat divers had been a menace throughout the war, and some soldiers had been crushed between colliding vessels, or drowned, unable to escape the tangled debris of the situation. At the end of it all, she couldn’t help but let our a brief laugh.

”Well, you make a good point there, actually. Don’t see any way to to enslave the blighters, they were already nothing more than the playthings of someone else. Not gonna even think about defilin’ one of ‘em like that. And torture didn’t make a difference, from what I heard. A couple of soldiers in a platoon near mine tried it out as vengeance for the agony weapons. Apparently the kid smiled until the end. I guess...maybe I don’t have so much to worry about. Those couple of soldiers might though, if this passes. Guess we’ll see...”

[Elyreia]

Tokiko listened to Korus speak. The tale of a ship turning into a death trap reminded her of what’d happened to the unfortunate soldiers who’d been caught out at sea. Tengokuren combat divers had been a menace throughout the war, and some soldiers had been crushed between colliding vessels, or drowned, unable to escape the tangled debris of the situation. At the end of it all, she couldn’t help but let our a brief laugh.

”Well, you make a good point there, actually. Don’t see any way to to enslave the blighters, they were already nothing more than the playthings of someone else. Not gonna even think about defilin’ one of ‘em like that. And torture didn’t make a difference, from what I heard. A couple of soldiers in a platoon near mine tried it out as vengeance for the agony weapons. Apparently the kid smiled until the end. I guess...maybe I don’t have so much to worry about. Those couple of soldiers might though, if this passes. Guess we’ll see...”

Korus tugged on their white, silken cowl to cover their head a bit more, though clearly left the face visible. "Besides, I believe WA resolutions for weaponizing children and civilians are targetted towards those that do it, not towards those unfortunate enough to defend themselves against such barbarism."

[Ruskland-Preuben]

OOC: But Sep, how am I supposed to use my Night Lords now?

[Dimokarthis]

Ah, hello, yes. I am the elected representative for Dimokarthis, a Socialist Goblin nation. Of course humans and others are welcome in our borders. But this resolution has me and a sizable chunk of the city-state concerned. What happens if we cannot meet the levy? Must we turn against allies by order of the assembly?

[New Voxa]

New Voxa voted against because, as a pacifist and neutral country which does not engange in any wars, we do not agree with enforced increases in military budget in countries that have already practically abolished regular army (like ours). We are sad to see that the resolution will likely pass.

[Arasi Luvasa]

New Voxa voted against because, as a pacifist and neutral country which does not engange in any wars, we do not agree with enforced increases in military budget in countries that have already practically abolished regular army (like ours). We are sad to see that the resolution will likely pass.

"If you don't have an army, I fail to see how this is a detriment unto your nation. Aside from that, are you arguing that no nation engages in wars and that because of this no nation would engage in war-crimes? If not then your reasoning for voting against this proposal is absurd."

[Bears Armed]

"They are a hive mind

OOC: If they are genuinely a hive mind then there might be a legitimate argument that existing GA resolutions only protect that hive-mind as a whole, and not each of its physically-separate bodies...

[Potted Plants United]

"They are a hive mind

OOC: If they are genuinely a hive mind then there might be a legitimate argument that existing GA resolutions only protect that hive-mind as a whole, and not each of its physically-separate bodies...

OOC: That's certainly the approach I take.

[Arasi Luvasa]

"They are a hive mind

OOC: If they are genuinely a hive mind then there might be a legitimate argument that existing GA resolutions only protect that hive-mind as a whole, and not each of its physically-separate bodies...

In the case of a psionic hive-mind like the Stepford-Cuckoos/Five-in-One from Marvel? Here it is still a hive-mind but each body also has an individual personality.

[Athaxauland]

I disagree with this.

[Separatist Peoples]

I disagree with this.

"Good for you, mate."

[Dimokarthis]

Look people, maybe you should consider that we don't need some sort of global military watchdog? An Overwatch program could go very poorly if not done right.

-President President

[Separatist Peoples]

Look people, maybe you should consider that we don't need some sort of global military watchdog? An Overwatch program could go very poorly if not done right.

-President President

"Right. Nations will play nice without anybody watching. The comments in this debate hall prove the opposite, ambassador."

[Araraukar]

In the case of a psionic hive-mind like the Stepford-Cuckoos/Five-in-One from Marvel? Here it is still a hive-mind but each body also has an individual personality.

OOC: That's a groupmind, not a hivemind. Yes I know the definitions differ based on who or what you've been reading, but that's kinda besides the point...

[Arasi Luvasa]

In the case of a psionic hive-mind like the Stepford-Cuckoos/Five-in-One from Marvel? Here it is still a hive-mind but each body also has an individual personality.

OOC: That's a groupmind, not a hivemind. Yes I know the definitions differ based on who or what you've been reading, but that's kinda besides the point...

Most hives IRL do have individuals acting to a single goal, and the way the cuckoos are often described is one mind with a variety of different personalities. They do act creepily similar usually and it is possible for one of the sisters to hijack control of the hive-mind (It is called a psionic hive-mind in-universe, where they do also have the mindless drone sort to boot but there is usually a dominant personality within the 3/5/1000-in-one).Perhaps there is room for legislation specifically addressing this phenomenon and how nations should address it both internally and externally (such as in a case of war).

Still if one considers hive-minds and their effect on combat, it does have an implication on warfare. Again perhaps laws specifically addressing this issue for nations when they are at war with such a collective entity could be in order. It would affect how laws that tie into this one are implemented (assuming there is not legislation clearly addressing the issue already).

[Dimokarthis]

Look people, maybe you should consider that we don't need some sort of global military watchdog? An Overwatch program could go very poorly if not done right.

-President President

"Right. Nations will play nice without anybody watching. The comments in this debate hall prove the opposite, ambassador."

Regional alliances can police themselves, and nations do own their own military forces. One very big man with a very big gun seems more like a threat to weaker nations, a way to convince us to go the way of the big boys or face sanctions, or worse consequences. Will this Overwatch threaten my people if we do not go the ways of the capitalist?

- President President (The Goblin President, Me)

[Separatist Peoples]

"Right. Nations will play nice without anybody watching. The comments in this debate hall prove the opposite, ambassador."

Regional alliances can police themselves, and nations do own their own military forces. One very big man with a very big gun seems more like a threat to weaker nations, a way to convince us to go the way of the big boys or face sanctions, or worse consequences. Will this Overwatch threaten my people if we do not go the ways of the capitalist?

- President President (The Goblin President, Me)

"Regional alliances

"Regional alliances can only police themselves if the constituents want to be policed. The World Assembly, on the other hand, equalizes representation between the militarily weak and the militarily strong nations. The powerful nations cannot easily vote themselves out a humanitarian obligation.

"Nothing in this law has anything to do with capitalism, communism, fascism, theocracy, anarchy, corporatism, or two-monkeys-fucking-a-greased-watermelon-ism. If you bothered to read it, you would know that."