US Government Shutdown- It's Over!... For Now

[Trumptonium1]

Here's evidence of what occurred when Hungary built a part-electric fence:


Here's evidence of what occurred when Israel built a wall in 2007-2012 for $1 billion:
http://fic.tufts.edu/assets/PRM_report_ ... esized.pdf
https://www.jpost.com/National-News/Gov ... g2NkE5MDk=

Even Netanyahu agrees
https://twitter.com/netanyahu/status/825371795972825089

According to statistics published by Israel’s Ministry of the Interior, 17,000 African immigrants entered the state illegally in 2011. However, in 2013, after the completion of the wall, the number fell to a mere 43.

http://hir.harvard.edu/article/?a=14542

Do you have any evidence as to why this would not work on the US border, beyond hypotheticals?

You do realize that the USA is several hundred times larger than Israel and Hungary?

That makes it easier. Economies of scale.

It also has tech Hungary doesn't and personnel numbers Israel could only wish for.

Why not train and employ voluntary militias to patrol the border? There's a shitload of people who would do it for free, and even more who would do it for a small sum. Or bring in NATO battlegroups - currently lots of European armies switching around and patrolling Kosovo and Macedonia. They can go to the US border. A good way for the US to get off our backs re. funding.

There are already tunnels under the border.

Then blow them up like Israel does. Also this isn't 1915, there's technology to discover them.

A massive “wall”, it’s a glorified fence and not a wall, isn’t going to prevent that.

But it prevents people going in and out of prisons - why?

[Galloism]

But it prevents people going in and out of prisons - why?

Mostly because we control what materials, supplies, equipment, etc go into prisons very very carefully and nobody important seems to mind, but Mexico gets upset when we do that. They start calling it a "blockade" and stuff like that.

[The South Falls]

You do realize that the USA is several hundred times larger than Israel and Hungary?

That makes it easier. Economies of scale.

It also has tech Hungary doesn't and personnel numbers Israel could only wish for.

Why not train and employ voluntary militias to patrol the border? There's a shitload of people who would do it for free, and even more who would do it for a small sum. Or bring in NATO battlegroups - currently lots of European armies switching around and patrolling Kosovo and Macedonia. They can go to the US border. A good way for the US to get off our backs re. funding.

There are already tunnels under the border.

Then blow them up like Israel does. Also this isn't 1915, there's technology to discover them.

A massive “wall”, it’s a glorified fence and not a wall, isn’t going to prevent that.

But it prevents people going in and out of prisons - why?

And how much tech do prisoners have to surmount this issue? Visa overstays aren't solved by monolith walls.

[The Alma Mater]

The US government is really hard to overthrow
We have tons of groups training for the moment to overthrow them, and the government is so prepared to put them down they don’t even care

The US government is hard to overthrow because we have the longest running democratic tradition ever.

The Dutch "Waterschappen" date back to the 1200s and still exist.

[Thermodolia]

That I never knew. Guess that explains why none have happened.

Both parties are going to use this shutdown as a point of their strength and the other's weakness. That is inevitable. If the Republicans win this, they validate the Presidency and functionally guarantee Trump a second term. If the Democrats win, they render Trump a lame duck and can pose a credible threat in 2020, possibly reducing him to one term.

Not illegal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initiativ ... ted_States

National referendums are illegal though.

[Valrifell]

But it prevents people going in and out of prisons - why?

Again, most prisons use well-patrolled perimeters with a mix of barbed fencing and ditches to reduce the risk of escape, such a plan on the border is prohibitively expensive and quite different from a wall. Not to mention that there's a whole lot of differences between prisoners and theoretical immigrants which make the analogy really dumb.

Unsure if you replied to this point before but I'm too lazy to go back and check, but I did make it.

[Galloism]

Not illegal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initiativ ... ted_States

National referendums are illegal though.

I'm not sure "illegal" is the right word. We probably could have a national referendum if we really wanted to, but it just wouldn't mean anything.

We don't really have any mechanism by which they could actually work or do anything.

[San Lumen]

Actually I don’t want the shutdown to last indefinitely. I want it to last long enough, 6 months should be fine, that a General strike occurrs and the people march on Washington.

Either way the democrats would look like pushovers if they give Trump what he wants

I may be a horrible person, but I think you're right (although I don't think even trump would drag it six months). You see, pain is a powerful teacher, and America needs a little pain right now to learn a valuable lesson. These stupid shutdowns that happen over and over again for no fucking discernible reason need to end. Historically, we've always resolved them fast enough that they were simply an annoyance, everyone got paid, and no government programs failed. Essentially, they were not painful, and this is because state governments are still running.

You stretch that out into a few months, especially during tax season, and suddenly the pain starts getting felt across the country. And pain is a powerful teacher.

Let me put it this way - if I had a machine hooked up that could auto-detect my pain and instantly inject morphine as soon as I stubbed my toe or hit my finger with a hammer or whatever way I've creatively injured myself today, I would probably be a lot more clumsy, as I wouldn't have learned the consequences of BEING clumsy and wouldn't be taking both the conscious and unconscious steps to avoid pain, and would therefore care less to avoid it.

I think we need our pain to learn.

I don't think it would be bad thing if the entire IRS was furloughed indefinitely

[The Alma Mater]

National referendums are illegal though.

I'm not sure "illegal" is the right word. We probably could have a national referendum if we really wanted to, but it just wouldn't mean anything.

We don't really have any mechanism by which they could actually work or do anything.

The Brexit referendum was not legally binding as well; but it still seems to have done something.

[Galloism]

I may be a horrible person, but I think you're right (although I don't think even trump would drag it six months). You see, pain is a powerful teacher, and America needs a little pain right now to learn a valuable lesson. These stupid shutdowns that happen over and over again for no fucking discernible reason need to end. Historically, we've always resolved them fast enough that they were simply an annoyance, everyone got paid, and no government programs failed. Essentially, they were not painful, and this is because state governments are still running.

You stretch that out into a few months, especially during tax season, and suddenly the pain starts getting felt across the country. And pain is a powerful teacher.

Let me put it this way - if I had a machine hooked up that could auto-detect my pain and instantly inject morphine as soon as I stubbed my toe or hit my finger with a hammer or whatever way I've creatively injured myself today, I would probably be a lot more clumsy, as I wouldn't have learned the consequences of BEING clumsy and wouldn't be taking both the conscious and unconscious steps to avoid pain, and would therefore care less to avoid it.

I think we need our pain to learn.

I don't think it would be bad thing if the entire IRS was furloughed indefinitely

Oh it would be an absolutely terrible thing.

[Bahktar]

You do realize that the USA is several hundred times larger than Israel and Hungary?

That makes it easier. Economies of scale.

It also has tech Hungary doesn't and personnel numbers Israel could only wish for.

Why not train and employ voluntary militias to patrol the border? There's a shitload of people who would do it for free, and even more who would do it for a small sum. Or bring in NATO battlegroups - currently lots of European armies switching around and patrolling Kosovo and Macedonia. They can go to the US border. A good way for the US to get off our backs re. funding.

I don't think militia is going to be trained enough to do that. Not really a good idea to put some random militia who-ever-signs-up people on the border who are not trained law enforcement officials. NATO? Why should NATO be responsible for enforcing the protection of US' internal border against.. Mexico?

[The South Falls]

I don't think it would be bad thing if the entire IRS was furloughed indefinitely

Oh it would be an absolutely terrible thing.

We do need roads, and such.

[San Lumen]

I don't think it would be bad thing if the entire IRS was furloughed indefinitely

Oh it would be an absolutely terrible thing.

Why?

[Trumptonium1]

That makes it easier. Economies of scale.

It also has tech Hungary doesn't and personnel numbers Israel could only wish for.

Why not train and employ voluntary militias to patrol the border? There's a shitload of people who would do it for free, and even more who would do it for a small sum. Or bring in NATO battlegroups - currently lots of European armies switching around and patrolling Kosovo and Macedonia. They can go to the US border. A good way for the US to get off our backs re. funding.




Then blow them up like Israel does. Also this isn't 1915, there's technology to discover them.



But it prevents people going in and out of prisons - why?

And how much tech do prisoners have to surmount this issue?

I wouldn't call ladders and bolt cutters 'tech'

No idea. But for some reason Hungary and Israel don't have these problems. Ukraine is building the world's longest border fence on their border with Russia - roughly two thirds of US-Mexico. Although Ukraine-Russia is slightly longer because of Rio Grande. Illegal crossings have all but disappeared. Why? Why don't the plebs simply use a ladder?

Visa overstays aren't solved by monolith walls.

Sorry Jim, we can't deal with your lung disease now because you have cancer. We're too incompetent to deal with both at once. We wish you luck.

[Bahktar]

https://www.cato.org/publications/comme ... -wont-work
This is for anyone who would think the wall would work.

It wouldn't.

[Valrifell]

That makes it easier. Economies of scale.

It also has tech Hungary doesn't and personnel numbers Israel could only wish for.

Why not train and employ voluntary militias to patrol the border? There's a shitload of people who would do it for free, and even more who would do it for a small sum. Or bring in NATO battlegroups - currently lots of European armies switching around and patrolling Kosovo and Macedonia. They can go to the US border. A good way for the US to get off our backs re. funding.

I don't think militia is going to be trained enough to do that. Not really a good idea to put some random militia who-ever-signs-up people on the border who are not trained law enforcement officials. NATO? Why should NATO be responsible for enforcing the protection of US' internal border against.. Mexico?

The NS issue Cowboys and Aliens? (I think that's the proper title) deals with that exact premise, which is hilarious. But at the same time I hate it when this game gets too real.

Also I had no idea the US-Mexican border was an active warzone.

[Telconi]

I may be a horrible person, but I think you're right (although I don't think even trump would drag it six months). You see, pain is a powerful teacher, and America needs a little pain right now to learn a valuable lesson. These stupid shutdowns that happen over and over again for no fucking discernible reason need to end. Historically, we've always resolved them fast enough that they were simply an annoyance, everyone got paid, and no government programs failed. Essentially, they were not painful, and this is because state governments are still running.

You stretch that out into a few months, especially during tax season, and suddenly the pain starts getting felt across the country. And pain is a powerful teacher.

Let me put it this way - if I had a machine hooked up that could auto-detect my pain and instantly inject morphine as soon as I stubbed my toe or hit my finger with a hammer or whatever way I've creatively injured myself today, I would probably be a lot more clumsy, as I wouldn't have learned the consequences of BEING clumsy and wouldn't be taking both the conscious and unconscious steps to avoid pain, and would therefore care less to avoid it.

I think we need our pain to learn.

I don't think it would be bad thing if the entire IRS was furloughed indefinitely

All along, San Lumen secretly wanted Atlas Shrugged to become reality...

[Kannap]

I may be a horrible person, but I think you're right (although I don't think even trump would drag it six months). You see, pain is a powerful teacher, and America needs a little pain right now to learn a valuable lesson. These stupid shutdowns that happen over and over again for no fucking discernible reason need to end. Historically, we've always resolved them fast enough that they were simply an annoyance, everyone got paid, and no government programs failed. Essentially, they were not painful, and this is because state governments are still running.

You stretch that out into a few months, especially during tax season, and suddenly the pain starts getting felt across the country. And pain is a powerful teacher.

Let me put it this way - if I had a machine hooked up that could auto-detect my pain and instantly inject morphine as soon as I stubbed my toe or hit my finger with a hammer or whatever way I've creatively injured myself today, I would probably be a lot more clumsy, as I wouldn't have learned the consequences of BEING clumsy and wouldn't be taking both the conscious and unconscious steps to avoid pain, and would therefore care less to avoid it.

I think we need our pain to learn.

I don't think it would be bad thing if the entire IRS was furloughed indefinitely

Of course you don't.

[The South Falls]

That makes it easier. Economies of scale.

It also has tech Hungary doesn't and personnel numbers Israel could only wish for.

Why not train and employ voluntary militias to patrol the border? There's a shitload of people who would do it for free, and even more who would do it for a small sum. Or bring in NATO battlegroups - currently lots of European armies switching around and patrolling Kosovo and Macedonia. They can go to the US border. A good way for the US to get off our backs re. funding.

I don't think militia is going to be trained enough to do that. Not really a good idea to put some random militia who-ever-signs-up people on the border who are not trained law enforcement officials. NATO? Why should NATO be responsible for enforcing the protection of US' internal border against.. Mexico?

That militia is often made up of such delusional people that I'm unsure that they'd follow the laws. One of these "militias" entered the home of a legal immigrant in 2009, screamed at him for drugs he didn't have, and then shot him and his kid. To death. That doesn't convince me of these "militias" effectiveness.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

I don't think it would be bad thing if the entire IRS was furloughed indefinitely

Of course you don't.

Something something taxation is theft

[San Lumen]

And how much tech do prisoners have to surmount this issue?

I wouldn't call ladders and bolt cutters 'tech'

No idea. But for some reason Hungary and Israel don't have these problems. Ukraine is building the world's longest border fence on their border with Russia - roughly two thirds of US-Mexico. Although Ukraine-Russia is slightly longer because of Rio Grande. Illegal crossings have all but disappeared. Why? Why don't the plebs simply use a ladder?

Visa overstays aren't solved by monolith walls.

Sorry Jim, we can't deal with your lung disease now because you have cancer. We're too incompetent to deal with both at once. We wish you luck.

Well they could use a ladder or simply take a plane to Kiev

[Thermodolia]

You do realize that the USA is several hundred times larger than Israel and Hungary?

That makes it easier. Economies of scale.

It also has tech Hungary doesn't and personnel numbers Israel could only wish for.

Why not train and employ voluntary militias to patrol the border? There's a shitload of people who would do it for free, and even more who would do it for a small sum. Or bring in NATO battlegroups - currently lots of European armies switching around and patrolling Kosovo and Macedonia. They can go to the US border. A good way for the US to get off our backs re. funding.

All of which is illegal.

2000 miles of border is not easy to build across. Especially when eminent domain court cases can be fought. It cost Israel 1/5 to build their wall and its much smaller than our border. $5 Billion isn’t going to cut it.

There are already tunnels under the border.

Then blow them up like Israel does. Also this isn't 1915, there's technology to discover them.

Also illegal. Mainly because we can’t blowup things that run under private property.

A massive “wall”, it’s a glorified fence and not a wall, isn’t going to prevent that.

But it prevents people going in and out of prisons - why?

The fence itself doesn’t prevent people from escaping. You have layers of fence topped with barbed wire that prevent people along with gaurd towers and patrols.

The only way to make the wall work is to build a wall like the Inner German Border. Which nobody in the US wants a wall that will also prevent them from leaving.

The US is a very different nation than Israel and Hungary

[The South Falls]

And how much tech do prisoners have to surmount this issue?

I wouldn't call ladders and bolt cutters 'tech'

No idea. But for some reason Hungary and Israel don't have these problems. Ukraine is building the world's longest border fence on their border with Russia - roughly two thirds of US-Mexico. Although Ukraine-Russia is slightly longer because of Rio Grande. Illegal crossings have all but disappeared. Why? Why don't the plebs simply use a ladder?

Visa overstays aren't solved by monolith walls.

Sorry Jim, we can't deal with your lung disease now because you have cancer. We're too incompetent to deal with both at once. We wish you luck.

Nah, that's more of a "Jim. Brother. You've got a cold. You've also got cancer. It'll take us a while to deal with either one, so which would you like?"

Prisoners don't have shit that's why they stay in. And how many soldiers are in Ukraine that have to man this wall?

[San Lumen]

That makes it easier. Economies of scale.

It also has tech Hungary doesn't and personnel numbers Israel could only wish for.

Why not train and employ voluntary militias to patrol the border? There's a shitload of people who would do it for free, and even more who would do it for a small sum. Or bring in NATO battlegroups - currently lots of European armies switching around and patrolling Kosovo and Macedonia. They can go to the US border. A good way for the US to get off our backs re. funding.

All of which is illegal.

2000 miles of border is not easy to build across. Especially when eminent domain court cases can be fought. It cost Israel 1/5 to build their wall and its much smaller than our border. $5 Billion isn’t going to cut it.

Then blow them up like Israel does. Also this isn't 1915, there's technology to discover them.

Also illegal. Mainly because we can’t blowup things that run under private property.

But it prevents people going in and out of prisons - why?

The fence itself doesn’t prevent people from escaping. You have layers of fence topped with barbed wire that prevent people along with gaurd towers and patrols.

The only way to make the wall work is to build a wall like the Inner German Border. Which nobody in the US wants a wall that will also prevent them from leaving.

The US is a very different nation than Israel and Hungary

There is also something in the way of a border wall called the Rocky Mountains.

[Thermodolia]

I may be a horrible person, but I think you're right (although I don't think even trump would drag it six months). You see, pain is a powerful teacher, and America needs a little pain right now to learn a valuable lesson. These stupid shutdowns that happen over and over again for no fucking discernible reason need to end. Historically, we've always resolved them fast enough that they were simply an annoyance, everyone got paid, and no government programs failed. Essentially, they were not painful, and this is because state governments are still running.

You stretch that out into a few months, especially during tax season, and suddenly the pain starts getting felt across the country. And pain is a powerful teacher.

Let me put it this way - if I had a machine hooked up that could auto-detect my pain and instantly inject morphine as soon as I stubbed my toe or hit my finger with a hammer or whatever way I've creatively injured myself today, I would probably be a lot more clumsy, as I wouldn't have learned the consequences of BEING clumsy and wouldn't be taking both the conscious and unconscious steps to avoid pain, and would therefore care less to avoid it.

I think we need our pain to learn.

I don't think it would be bad thing if the entire IRS was furloughed indefinitely

So you don’t want your tax refund then? Because they can still tax you