Riots in France over fuel tax rises

[Novus Wrepland]

Their policies? To be honest we’ll probably have to get used to stuff like this as our populations get older and global warming and shit make things even worse.

Their policies? You mean the ones they impose on others without following themselves?
You mean the policies that punish the defrauded victims of the diesel scandal and not the perpetrators? (Not surprisingly considering the same politicians allowed the scandal to happen and many were involved in it?)

You mean taxing the average worker’s diesel while flying private jets?
You mean forcing others to cut emissions while continuing to produce absurd amounts on their own?

Their policies seem to indicate they care about preserving their own position, regardless to the costs of those outside the ruling class.

If actually protecting the environment and economy was the objective there would be better ways to do so.

And if you are going to demand the public make sacrifices, unless you are willing to make the same sacrifices you will lose all credibility.
Which is the fundamental problem here.

Until the political elite understand the concepts of leading by example, servant leadership and self-sacrifice this situation is just going to get worse.

Gauche caviar are the problem, not the solution.

It's very unnecessary of you to write like you're practicing for a speech class final.

So basically I take it that you want our leaders to pretend to be blue collar? That's kind of impractical.

Edit: I removed a lot of writing because I simply don't have time to discuss a lot here.

[Ifreann]

(Image)

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit son!

What I don't understand is when antifa does this we're told they're violent ne'er-do-wells that have to be denounced by all, yellow vests protest in a similar way they're good French bois fighting for freedom.

Fighting against fascism is the real fascism. Fighting against a pro-EU government is GLORIOUS HEROISM.

[Ors Might]

Their policies? You mean the ones they impose on others without following themselves?
You mean the policies that punish the defrauded victims of the diesel scandal and not the perpetrators? (Not surprisingly considering the same politicians allowed the scandal to happen and many were involved in it?)

You mean taxing the average worker’s diesel while flying private jets?
You mean forcing others to cut emissions while continuing to produce absurd amounts on their own?

Their policies seem to indicate they care about preserving their own position, regardless to the costs of those outside the ruling class.

If actually protecting the environment and economy was the objective there would be better ways to do so.

And if you are going to demand the public make sacrifices, unless you are willing to make the same sacrifices you will lose all credibility.
Which is the fundamental problem here.

Until the political elite understand the concepts of leading by example, servant leadership and self-sacrifice this situation is just going to get worse.

Gauche caviar are the problem, not the solution.

It's very unnecessary of you to write like you're practicing for a speech class final.

So basically I take it that you want our leaders to pretend to be blue collar? That's kind of impractical.

Edit: I removed a lot of writing because I simply don't have time to discuss a lot here.

I think what they’re saying is that if French leaders believe that climate change is such a problem, maybe they should act like it? Instead of pushing the burden solely onto the people.

[Novus Wrepland]

It's very unnecessary of you to write like you're practicing for a speech class final.

So basically I take it that you want our leaders to pretend to be blue collar? That's kind of impractical.

Edit: I removed a lot of writing because I simply don't have time to discuss a lot here.

I think what they’re saying is that if French leaders believe that climate change is such a problem, maybe they should act like it? Instead of pushing the burden solely onto the people.

He didn’t give very good examples. Private jets are used for security reasons I assume. What emissions are they doing that are statistically significant? This all seems to boil down to PR to me, which in my opinion should not be that important.

[Novus America]

Their policies? You mean the ones they impose on others without following themselves?
You mean the policies that punish the defrauded victims of the diesel scandal and not the perpetrators? (Not surprisingly considering the same politicians allowed the scandal to happen and many were involved in it?)

You mean taxing the average worker’s diesel while flying private jets?
You mean forcing others to cut emissions while continuing to produce absurd amounts on their own?

Their policies seem to indicate they care about preserving their own position, regardless to the costs of those outside the ruling class.

If actually protecting the environment and economy was the objective there would be better ways to do so.

And if you are going to demand the public make sacrifices, unless you are willing to make the same sacrifices you will lose all credibility.
Which is the fundamental problem here.

Until the political elite understand the concepts of leading by example, servant leadership and self-sacrifice this situation is just going to get worse.

Gauche caviar are the problem, not the solution.

It's very unnecessary of you to write like you're practicing for a speech class final.

None of those things are inhibiting of good governance. A lot of so-called great leaders did worse. We can dislike the character of members of a government, and still support their intentions or at least understand them.

I agree that there are probably better ways to protect the environment, but it seems like this was intended for the French deficit anyway. A single bad policy does not a bad program make however.

But it is self evident that they are inhibiting good governance in this case.
We have empirical evidence with these riots that many people in today’s world are no longer going to go along with such hypocrisy.

See I am all about protecting the environment and improving the economy. I even have detailed plan to do so (though not being of any importance myself, none of it could ever be implemented regardless of its merits or lack thereof).

And sure hypocrisy alone does not necessarily make a policy bad.
But in the end what matters is not the policy, but how well it is implemented.
All my policies will miserably fail because I cannot implement them. If a policy is good in theory but cannot be successfully implemented because people reject it, it is still a failure.

To be successful a policy has to be accepted by the people. In a democratic society it cannot be forced top down.

A single bad policy does not necessarily make all policies in the program bad. But if that bad policy causes the program to be rejected, that bad policy still destroyed the rest of the program, causing it to fail.

If people being tired of hypocrisy is causing the program to be rejected (regardless of its merits) stopping the hypocrisy is essential for people to see the merits.

But I am not falsely assuming that the elite care more about the environment and economy than preserving their power and cushy lifestyles.

[Novus America]

I think what they’re saying is that if French leaders believe that climate change is such a problem, maybe they should act like it? Instead of pushing the burden solely onto the people.

He didn’t give very good examples. Private jets are used for security reasons I assume. What emissions are they doing that are statistically significant? This all seems to boil down to PR to me, which in my opinion should not be that important.

Private jets are not merely for security and many of the trips the use them for are unnecessary in the first place.
PR is absolutely important. Policies, politicians, corporations, etc succeed and fail just as much on PR as they do on policies. To be truly successful you have to be good a both.

And I am not expecting them to pretend to be blue collar, but I am expecting them to make real sacrafices. They can sacrifice quite a lot before becoming blue collar.
Making the German car companies pay for fraud instead of the making the victims pay would be both a sacrifice on their part and good policy.

Good policy and good PR are not mutually exclusive. On the contrary they are complementary.

[Novus America]

It's very unnecessary of you to write like you're practicing for a speech class final.

So basically I take it that you want our leaders to pretend to be blue collar? That's kind of impractical.

Edit: I removed a lot of writing because I simply don't have time to discuss a lot here.

I think what they’re saying is that if French leaders believe that climate change is such a problem, maybe they should act like it? Instead of pushing the burden solely onto the people.

Well more than an act would be nice, but a credible act would be a step in the right direction.
I do not believe they care about climate change per se, rather they care about how climate change might harm them personally.

[Trumptonium1]

Amid calls for him to resign, Macron has announced he will address the nation together with his cabinet at 7pm tonight in Paris. Apparently this is the first such live address since 1968 by de Gaulle, although I have no idea when the last wast and I'm just taking random tweets.

[Thermodolia]

Amid calls for him to resign, Macron has announced he will address the nation together with his cabinet at 7pm tonight in Paris. Apparently this is the first such live address since 1968 by de Gaulle.

I wonder if it’s going to be a one word speech with a him flipping everyone off

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Amid calls for him to resign, Macron has announced he will address the nation together with his cabinet at 7pm tonight in Paris. Apparently this is the first such live address since 1968 by de Gaulle.

I wonder if it’s going to be a one word speech with a him flipping everyone off

“Merde!”
-Marcon, 10 December 2018

Alternatively, “Le president meurt et ne se rend pas”

[Trumptonium1]

He'll just pull a Melenchon. "LA REPUBLIQUE, C'EST MOI!"

Or "Laissez-les acheter Tesla!" for a good Marie-Antoinette impersonation, hopefully while pointing at the plebs outside.

[Snottistan]

"Shock in Paris as locals aren't protesting" would be a good headline on the offchance the opportunity ever comes about.

[Olerand]

This could all have been avoided if Macron didn't actually think himself Jupiter. Calling the French people Gaulois reticent to change when you're abroad, saying that in train stations you can find people who are successful and people who are nothing, telling people to stop complaining, none of that endears you to the public. This is all something a right-wing president from the formal right-wing parties could do, knowing that tribal allegiances will always ensure that you have the support of at least 30% of the people (from the same group who keep voting for the Balkanys for example, or who regret Fillon) as it did to Sarkozy. But Macron... He's a neophyte. Who's gonna prop you up now?

This is a crisis all of his own making, and one we cannot exit so simply either. No matter what he announces today, this crisis has gotten much larger than some subsidies can fix. The gillets jaunes hate Macron. They hate him. How do you fix that?

[The Tomerlands]

It's a shame Marcon is so hated now. It's only been two years and everyone hates his guts. He doesn't seem too bad of a guy, aside from his crappy neoliberal and corporatist polices that were hurting the working class and poor. I hope he makes a recovery.

[Olerand]

It's a shame Marcon is so hated now. It's only been two years and everyone hates his guts. He doesn't seem too bad of a guy, aside from his crappy neoliberal and corporatist polices that were hurting the working class and poor. I hope he makes a recovery.

I hope he doesn't. The best thing he can do for France now is push through whatever shit he wants to push through, fail, and resign himself to not running in 2022. The alternatives aren't much better, but we're quickly approaching a very deleterious and toxic environment here.

[Alvecia]

It's a shame Marcon is so hated now. It's only been two years and everyone hates his guts. He doesn't seem too bad of a guy, aside from his crappy neoliberal and corporatist polices that were hurting the working class and poor. I hope he makes a recovery.

I hope he doesn't. The best thing he can do for France now is push through whatever shit he wants to push through, fail, and resign himself to not running in 2022. The alternatives aren't much better, but we're quickly approaching a very deleterious and toxic environment here.

IIRC the next most popular candidate was “meh”.

[Phoenicaea]

^ @Olerand, what is the state of the art about institutions in France, nowadays. is there this 'accumulation' of things above the president, this '4 years monarchy' drift.

in this case, restore a substantial 'half-presidential' state. i mean, French parliament is not a fraud. it needs to have again substantial influence and laws.

[Baltenstein]

It's a shame Marcon is so hated now. It's only been two years and everyone hates his guts. He doesn't seem too bad of a guy, aside from his crappy neoliberal and corporatist polices that were hurting the working class and poor. I hope he makes a recovery.

I hope he doesn't. The best thing he can do for France now is push through whatever shit he wants to push through, fail, and resign himself to not running in 2022. The alternatives aren't much better, but we're quickly approaching a very deleterious and toxic environment here.

What is the better solution though? The French nation seems to have maneuvred herself into a dead end, both politically and socially.

[Phoenicaea]

^ @Olerand, @Baltensten, you may review government rules so that all things president has accumulated beneath himself, in last decades, are shared between parliament and towns.

[Phoenicaea]

"Shock in Paris as locals aren't protesting" would be a good headline on the offchance the opportunity ever comes about.

[Olerand]

I hope he doesn't. The best thing he can do for France now is push through whatever shit he wants to push through, fail, and resign himself to not running in 2022. The alternatives aren't much better, but we're quickly approaching a very deleterious and toxic environment here.

IIRC the next most popular candidate was “meh”.

The most popular candidate was already meh. Macron, despite foreign coverage of him leading many to believe the contrary, was never a figure that most French -and especially those not issued of the grande and haute bourgeoisie, and especially not those not in major cities, and most particularly Paris; were "excited" about, but more resigned to. He wasn't Hollande, which was a plus, and he promised a suppression of the habitation tax for 80% of the people, which is nice, but that's it. He wasn't this providential man he thought he was, and most people, listening to him undergo a religious ecstasy on the campaign trail felt a kinship with this girl more than with the candidate himself.

I voted for Macron, twice, and I didn't do it with an impending sense of salvation. Sarkozy in 2007, and even in 2012, elicited much more actual support. The only other candidate to elicit so little outpouring of actual support that I can think of was Hollande in 2012, and well...

^ @Olerand, what is the state of the art about institutions in France, nowadays. is there this 'accumulation' of things above the president, this '4 years monarchy' drift.

in this case, restore a substantial 'half-presidential' state. i mean, French parliament is not a fraud. it needs to have again substantial influence and laws.

There's no issues with the actual institutions, or at least there's no alternative to them anyway. A mirage of a grand soir and the resulting VIth Republic that will herald a new era for humanity is just that, a mirage. Our problem is that de Gaulle is dead, and the words of Mitterrand have come true, "I am the last of the great presidents. After me, there will only be financiers and accountants."

France is not a girondin country, no matter how much people want to pretend it is so they can oppose the current jacobin order. If we were to ever decentralize, people will be even more pissed when they realize there is now less money and less authority.

I hope he doesn't. The best thing he can do for France now is push through whatever shit he wants to push through, fail, and resign himself to not running in 2022. The alternatives aren't much better, but we're quickly approaching a very deleterious and toxic environment here.

What is the better solution though? The French nation seems to have maneuvred herself into a dead end, both politically and socially.

Excellent question. Post your opinions, I guess, for they are as good as mine.

[Novus America]

I hope he doesn't. The best thing he can do for France now is push through whatever shit he wants to push through, fail, and resign himself to not running in 2022. The alternatives aren't much better, but we're quickly approaching a very deleterious and toxic environment here.

What is the better solution though? The French nation seems to have maneuvred herself into a dead end, both politically and socially.

Maybe take a more Nordic or Swiss approach, combining deregulation and pro business policies with a well funded welfare state.

A welfare state does not require over regulation of business. And deregulation does not require cutting welfare. Understanding that welfare and pro business economic policies are not mutually exclusive is the key.

Also a good dose of militarization with conscription.

France needs to get its high unemployment under control, and the above would help.

And I know it is not politically correct to say so, but limiting immigration to high skilled immigrants from certain areas, excluding the more unpopular areas.

France has a good enough birthrate that large scale immigration is not needed.

[Baltenstein]

The most popular candidate was already meh. Macron, despite foreign coverage of him leading many to believe the contrary, was never a figure that most French -and especially those not issued of the grande and haute bourgeoisie, and especially not those not in major cities, and most particularly Paris; were "excited" about, but more resigned to. He wasn't Hollande, which was a plus, and he promised a suppression of the habitation tax for 80% of the people, which is nice, but that's it. He wasn't this providential man he thought he was, and most people, listening to him undergo a religious ecstasy on the campaign trail felt a kinship with this girl more than with the candidate himself.

You mean the girl in the yellow dress behind Macron who kinda looks like she is trying not to laugh?

France is not a girondiste country, no matter how much people want to pretend it is so they can oppose the current jacobin order. If we were to ever decentralize, people will be even more pissed when they realize there is now less money and less authority.

Girondist as in...federal? Urbanite? Market-friendly? Centrist?

Excellent question. Post your opinions, I guess, for they are as good as mine.

No idea. I'm just an outside observer from the other half of the Franco-German European engine thinking, like most of our opinion makers and politicos do, that you should get your house in order, mes amis.

[Baltenstein]

.

France has a good enough birthrate that large scale immigration is not needed.

I have to say, this is one of the few topics in which France is better positioned for the future than Germany.

That, and a healthier and more realistic attitude to one's own military forces and the nature of military force in general.

[Olerand]

What is the better solution though? The French nation seems to have maneuvred herself into a dead end, both politically and socially.

Maybe take a more Nordic or Swiss approach, combining deregulation and pro business policies with a well funded welfare state.

A welfare state does not require over regulation of business. And deregulation does not require cutting welfare. Understanding that welfare and pro business economic policies are not mutually exclusive is the key.

Also a good dose of militarization with conscription.

France needs to get its high unemployment under control, and the above would help.

And I know it is not politically correct to say so, but limiting immigration to high skilled immigrants from certain areas, excluding the more unpopular areas.

France has a good enough birthrate that large scale immigration is not needed.

An ideal proposal that is... impossible in France. All the promises of a Nordic model don't mean anything in a non-Nordic country. The Nords have developed their model from their culture, which is much more consensual and less conflict-prone than ours. It is also more accustomed to down-up social negotiations than France is. We are the country of Louis XIV and the Revolution, for better (and there are certainly benefits to this) and for worse.
We're also the country of the probably aprocryphal saying by de Gaulle: "How do you govern a country in which exists 258 varities of cheese?"

The most popular candidate was already meh. Macron, despite foreign coverage of him leading many to believe the contrary, was never a figure that most French -and especially those not issued of the grande and haute bourgeoisie, and especially not those not in major cities, and most particularly Paris; were "excited" about, but more resigned to. He wasn't Hollande, which was a plus, and he promised a suppression of the habitation tax for 80% of the people, which is nice, but that's it. He wasn't this providential man he thought he was, and most people, listening to him undergo a religious ecstasy on the campaign trail felt a kinship with this girl more than with the candidate himself.

You mean the girl in the yellow dress behind Macron who kinda looks like she is trying not to laugh?

France is not a girondiste country, no matter how much people want to pretend it is so they can oppose the current jacobin order. If we were to ever decentralize, people will be even more pissed when they realize there is now less money and less authority.

Girondist as in...federal? Urbanite? Market-friendly? Centrist?

Excellent question. Post your opinions, I guess, for they are as good as mine.

No idea. I'm just an outside observer from the other half of the Franco-German European engine thinking, like most of our opinion makers and politicos do, that you should get your house in order, mes amis.

Yes.

Not federal, France has never been federal. But as the poster suggested, with more authority to towns and regions and whatever. People are so disenchanted with the current status quo that they will claim to want this, but when the inhabitants of Centre-Val de Loire realize that the flow of cash and influence from Paris has dried up, there'll be a revolution for a new jacobin order very soon.

... We're not going to do that. So... See you during the next crisis.