LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Well, considering that my grandfather was held at gunpoint by a Marxist-Leninist guerilla fighter at one point...

You'll need a goddamn miracle before I'll ever find any redeeming factors about communism.

"Considering how my ancestors fled England due to liturgical oppression by the Church of England, you'll need a goddamn miracle for me to find any redeeming factors in the Book of Common Prayer."

: ^)

Ah yes, because that ancestor of yours is still alive since the creation of the Church of England?

[Western Vale Confederacy]

I have genuine reasons to dislike anything beyond the center-left, because it has led to my maternal family losing everything and having to flee for their lives back to Portugal and then Canada.

That's my main gripe with unironic socialists (as in actual socialists, not social democrats), the majority of them have never experienced the suffering hundreds of millions endured during the Cold War under the various socialist or Marxist-Leninist regimes in Eastern Europe, Asia and Africa.

You wouldn't have such a rose-tinted view of socialism or communism if your loved one is having an AK-47 pressed on their goddamn chest by one of those Marxist-Leninist soldiers.

Do you know about market socialism?
I'm as distrusting of state socialists as you are, but still a socialist.

Market socialism is a much more palatable ideology since they actually attempt at blending elements of socialism with elements of capitalism without the whole "Kill all rich people!" or "Redistribute everything by force!" schtick.

[Mattopilos II]

"People suffered under the system I don't like so it's baaaaad"
So... do you hate all systems then?

[The National Salvation Front for Russia]

Anecdotes are trash. My family has nothing but good things to say about the USSR, so do all the Russian folks I know.

But I wouldn't go as far to say that the USSR was some paradise for everyone just because my familial experiences were positive.

[United Muscovite Nations]

"Considering how my ancestors fled England due to liturgical oppression by the Church of England, you'll need a goddamn miracle for me to find any redeeming factors in the Book of Common Prayer."

: ^)

Ah yes, because that ancestor of yours is still alive since the creation of the Church of England?

You're kind of missing the point, which is that the ideology behind an act doesn't inherently support the actions of its followers, unless that ideology explicitly does. Certainly, there's nothing in Marxist theory that expressly supports holding people at gunpoint.

[Novus Wrepland]

"Considering how my ancestors fled England due to liturgical oppression by the Church of England, you'll need a goddamn miracle for me to find any redeeming factors in the Book of Common Prayer."

: ^)

Ah yes, because that ancestor of yours is still alive since the creation of the Church of England?

Well they don’t really give you a reason, they give you an excuse. If my family members were Nazis sentenced at Nuremberg, I don’t think that alone would give me a good reason to oppose democracy.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Ah yes, because that ancestor of yours is still alive since the creation of the Church of England?

You're kind of missing the point, which is that the ideology behind an act doesn't inherently support the actions of its followers, unless that ideology explicitly does. Certainly, there's nothing in Marxist theory that expressly supports holding people at gunpoint.

Marxist theory does preach that revolution is necessary, and I think we are all aware that most revolutions don't exactly tend to be bloodless and civilized.

[United Muscovite Nations]

You're kind of missing the point, which is that the ideology behind an act doesn't inherently support the actions of its followers, unless that ideology explicitly does. Certainly, there's nothing in Marxist theory that expressly supports holding people at gunpoint.

Marxist theory does preach that revolution is necessary, and I think we are all aware that most revolutions don't exactly tend to be bloodless and civilized.

What you presented wasn't really an argument that the revolution itself is a bad thing, just that someone was held at gunpoint in the process of that revolution. Like werpland said, it's not really your reason for opposing communism, it's an excuse to do so.

[Pasong Tirad]

Hey my grandparents went through hell under the Japanese. That doesn't mean I'm not gonna visit Japan the first chance I get. Also doesn't mean I hate all fascists-

Wait...

[Mattopilos II]

You're kind of missing the point, which is that the ideology behind an act doesn't inherently support the actions of its followers, unless that ideology explicitly does. Certainly, there's nothing in Marxist theory that expressly supports holding people at gunpoint.

Marxist theory does preach that revolution is necessary, and I think we are all aware that most revolutions don't exactly tend to be bloodless and civilized.

Marxism isn't all of socialism. You are starting to sound like Marxists.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Marxist theory does preach that revolution is necessary, and I think we are all aware that most revolutions don't exactly tend to be bloodless and civilized.

What you presented wasn't really an argument that the revolution itself is a bad thing, just that someone was held at gunpoint in the process of that revolution. Like werpland said, it's not really your reason for opposing communism, it's an excuse to do so.

It wasn't just my family facing the prospect of death, they lost everything except what they could carry on their person (houses, personal possessions, etc...).

I don't exactly know anybody who'd support an ideology that has done nothing but harm them, despite all the good intentions of said ideology. It's why different ideologies are more attractive to others based on their life experiences.

[Torrocca]

So you are going to play "I am spooked by my anecdotes" card. Feel free to sit out and let others talk then.

My grand uncle died dropping bombs on Nazi Germany for the Red Army but I find redeeming factors about communism.

I mean, I don't think any of us here would pass up a chance on dropping bombs on Nazi Germany if our country was suddenly invaded by them and they indiscriminately began to slaughter all of our families, friends, and neighbors, regardless of whether it was a Stalin or a Churchill or an FDR running the scene.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

My grand uncle died dropping bombs on Nazi Germany for the Red Army but I find redeeming factors about communism.

I mean, I don't think any of us here would pass up a chance on dropping bombs on Nazi Germany if our country was suddenly invaded by them and they indiscriminately began to slaughter all of our families, friends, and neighbors, regardless of whether it was a Stalin or a Churchill or an FDR running the scene.

I mean, I'd shoot anybody who would attempt to harm my family/friends and destroy my personal possessions out of artificial hatred, regardless of what the hell their ideology was.

[Torrocca]

I mean, I don't think any of us here would pass up a chance on dropping bombs on Nazi Germany if our country was suddenly invaded by them and they indiscriminately began to slaughter all of our families, friends, and neighbors, regardless of whether it was a Stalin or a Churchill or an FDR running the scene.

I mean, I'd shoot anybody who would attempt to harm my family/friends and destroy my personal possessions out of artificial hatred, regardless of what the hell their ideology was.

Good thing us Communists value personal property as belonging to the person, so you'd need not worry there. :3

[Western Vale Confederacy]

I mean, I'd shoot anybody who would attempt to harm my family/friends and destroy my personal possessions out of artificial hatred, regardless of what the hell their ideology was.

Good thing us Communists value personal property as belonging to the person, so you'd need not worry there. :3

*stares at the billions of requisitions across all ranges of the political scale*

I'll believe it when I see a Communist government that doesn't turn into state capitalism or a dictatorship painted red within ten minutes.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Well, considering that my grandfather was held at gunpoint by a Marxist-Leninist guerilla fighter at one point...

You'll need a goddamn miracle before I'll ever find any redeeming factors about communism.

I would respectfully ask your to to bear in mind, however, that you are in the left-wing discussion thread, not the right-wing discussion thread.

I am sorry for your grandfather, but I am a communist, so I am obviously interested in discussing communism, not bashing it.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

"Considering how my ancestors fled England due to liturgical oppression by the Church of England, you'll need a goddamn miracle for me to find any redeeming factors in the Book of Common Prayer."

: ^)

I wasn't asking for redeeming factors. I was asking my fellow communists to have a discussion on communism.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Marxist theory does preach that revolution is necessary, and I think we are all aware that most revolutions don't exactly tend to be bloodless and civilized.

Revolutions are despised necessities if we want to see genuine emancipation and self-realization in the world.

[Kubra]

"Considering how my ancestors fled England due to liturgical oppression by the Church of England, you'll need a goddamn miracle for me to find any redeeming factors in the Book of Common Prayer."

: ^)

Ah yes, because that ancestor of yours is still alive since the creation of the Church of England?

Same token. the past is in the past.
Maybe I should hold a grudge against Canada because my grandpa got his ass beat in a residential school, but, well, I didn't much like the guy.

[Dumb Ideologies]

"Considering how my ancestors fled England due to liturgical oppression by the Church of England, you'll need a goddamn miracle for me to find any redeeming factors in the Book of Common Prayer."

: ^)

I wasn't asking for redeeming factors. I was asking my fellow communists to have a discussion on communism.

Public forums aren't a good place to do private conversations relevant to only a small segment of those present. Other people will chip in.

I don't subscribe to any communist ideology and view them all as fundamentally flawed, but there are elements of good and interesting ideas in Titoism and De Leonism, as well as National Bolshevism - everyone's favourite slightly-deranged uncle.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Well, considering that my grandfather was held at gunpoint by a Marxist-Leninist guerilla fighter at one point...

You'll need a goddamn miracle before I'll ever find any redeeming factors about communism.

I would respectfully ask your to to bear in mind, however, that you are in the left-wing discussion thread, not the right-wing discussion thread.

I am sorry for your grandfather, but I am a communist, so I am obviously interested in discussing communism, not bashing it.

The LWDT isn't your personal echo chamber, it is a thread meant to discuss about the positives and negatives (emphasis on negatives just so you don't skip it) of leftism.

This means this thread is as open to critics of leftism (as long as it remains within civil discussion) as those who praise it, my friend, so I am allowed to criticize certain branches of leftism as I see fit.

Marxist theory does preach that revolution is necessary, and I think we are all aware that most revolutions don't exactly tend to be bloodless and civilized.

Revolutions are despised necessities if we want to see genuine emancipation and self-realization in the world.

You're the same guy who advocated that the murder of a monarch's family (including children) was perfectly justified.

Violent revolutions do nothing but harm the common populace and lead to the extrajudicial persecution and murder of whoever you don't agree with or disagrees with you.

I wasn't asking for redeeming factors. I was asking my fellow communists to have a discussion on communism.

Public forums aren't a good place to do private conversations relevant to only a small segment of those present. Other people will chip in.

I don't subscribe to any communist ideology and view them all as fundamentally flawed, but there are elements of good and interesting ideas in Titoism and De Leonism, as well as National Bolshevism - everyone's favourite slightly-deranged uncle.

NazBol?

I see you are a man of culture as well!

[The National Salvation Front for Russia]

National Bolshevism is not deranged by any means. It's merely the perfectly logical continuation of fervent nationalism to a collectivist and egalitarian conclusion. The Nation over Individuals.

[Duvniask]

Violent revolutions do nothing but harm the common populace and lead to the extrajudicial persecution and murder of whoever you don't agree with or disagrees with you.

In the short term revolutions bring collateral damage, but they are often driven by bitter necessity. Considering how much our modern world rests on revolutions, even violent ones, your statement really starts looking like an overly simplistic reading of history. Hell, just one, one revolution, that turned to violence helped change history forever.

National Bolshevism is not deranged by any means. It's merely the perfectly logical continuation of fervent nationalism to a collectivist and egalitarian conclusion. The Nation over Individuals.

That is precisely what makes it deranged.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Violent revolutions do nothing but harm the common populace and lead to the extrajudicial persecution and murder of whoever you don't agree with or disagrees with you.

In the short term revolutions bring collateral damage, but they are often driven by bitter necessity. Considering how much our modern world rests on revolutions, even violent ones, your statement really starts looking like an overly simplistic reading of history. Hell, just one, one revolution, that turned to violence helped change history forever.

National Bolshevism is not deranged by any means. It's merely the perfectly logical continuation of fervent nationalism to a collectivist and egalitarian conclusion. The Nation over Individuals.

That is precisely what makes it deranged.

I just find revolutions distateful, for I prefer striking the system from within through a gradual takeover of the state apparatus or at worst, a quick coup.

[The National Salvation Front for Russia]

National Bolshevism is not deranged by any means. It's merely the perfectly logical continuation of fervent nationalism to a collectivist and egalitarian conclusion. The Nation over Individuals.

That is precisely what makes it deranged.

Your opinion is noted internationalist.