Selling and Buying Votes

[Neu-Preusen]

Woops, wrong country, that's also me.

[The Frozen Forest]

SNIP

I was actually joking with the Europe comment, hence why i threw Cuba in before mentioning Europe. Well, i suppose if you don't count countries like Belarus and Russia in the mix, or those breakaway rebels in Ukraine. American democracy could be improved, but not by copying the methods of Western European democracies. I feel as though many Americans would see those systems as overly bureaucratic, complicated and susceptible to corruption.

If i had to reform the system though, i suppose i would love Single Transferable Vote since its not overtly European, with some history in the United States, but also it reduces wasted votes. Not that any votes are truly wasted, mind you.

Many states have laws in place to ensure that electors vote for the candidate selected by their states. Most do anyways, it's pretty much just a symbolic remembrance of the days when we didn't have such an interconnectedness within the country. Since it doesn't really affect the election, it doesn't really make US democracy any less democratic than European systems.

[Room 1-Firearms]

SNIP

SNIP

Ey, it's CGP Grey! Also, I'd agree. Single Transferable Votes are probably one of the best systems. For one, you actually need a majority of people to at least not mind you, and two, you actually get to elect your leader. It's also not too complicated.

[Chan Island]

Gotta admit, it would be a very tempting offer. I'd like to think I would say no to all 3 of those though.

[Infected Mushroom]

Its not a joke. Its literal reality. If my 1 vote won't actually decide anything (cast it or don't cast it, and the outcome is still the same); then I am better off not wasting my time voting.

This is why I've wisely refrained from voting all my life. Don't do those things that don't change anything.

I grew up in a country were my vote really didn't count. The year before I left Zimbabwe there was a a man running for one of the town council positions who was very popular in my little farming village. He would have won the election if he were in ZANU-PF. My parents were threatened as they tried to vote because whites always voted for MDC. As the votes were being counted he was arrested for a crime he didn't commit and the ZANU man from Mashonaland was declared winner by 98%.

Three days ago I cast my ballot for the Florida midterms and I got a sticker. It doesn't matter that my vote is so minute to be almost insignificant. My vote will be counted and my say, no matter how small, matters.

I don't know...

I just have a very hard time understanding how something can "matter" if with or without its individual addition/existence... the world goes on exactly as before =(

If you hadn't voted, Florida would still get the same government. If you voted opposite to your true beliefs, Florida would still get the same government. But... it matters? I mean, I don't understand =(

Now if you were personally powerful enough to mobilise thousands of votes... that could be a different game.

In most things in life, if you PURPOSELY try to "screw it up" there will be consequences and things will change for the worse. Voting is one of those rare instances, where you can literally do anything or nothing or try to sabotage your own party (by voting in the complete opposite)... and yet nothing changes. No difference is made by your individual action.

[Heloin]

I grew up in a country were my vote really didn't count. The year before I left Zimbabwe there was a a man running for one of the town council positions who was very popular in my little farming village. He would have won the election if he were in ZANU-PF. My parents were threatened as they tried to vote because whites always voted for MDC. As the votes were being counted he was arrested for a crime he didn't commit and the ZANU man from Mashonaland was declared winner by 98%.

Three days ago I cast my ballot for the Florida midterms and I got a sticker. It doesn't matter that my vote is so minute to be almost insignificant. My vote will be counted and my say, no matter how small, matters.

I don't know...

I just have a very hard time understanding how something can "matter" if with or without its individual addition/existence... the world goes on exactly as before =(

If you hadn't voted, Florida would still get the same government. If you voted opposite to your true beliefs, Florida would still get the same government. But... it matters? I mean, I don't understand =(

Now if you were personally powerful enough to mobilise thousands of votes... that could be a different game.

In most things in life, if you PURPOSELY try to "screw it up" there will be consequences and things will change for the worse. Voting is one of those rare instances, where you can literally do anything or nothing or try to sabotage your own party (by voting in the complete opposite)... and yet nothing changes. No difference is made by your individual action.

I'm not powerful enough to mobilise voters no. I'm a ranger for a city park, the most powerful decision I have is whether or not to report illegal fishers, but the people mobilising votes aren't creating them out of thin air. It's in many ways about being more then yourself, my vote won't be the winning vote the election on Tuesday or any election in any country I live in, it will however be part of thousands of other votes that will do something.

What your describing isn't my vote not counting, it's my vote not being the most important vote. I know what it's like for a vote really not to matter and it's far worse than then a petty question of whether or not my vote is important.

[San Lumen]

I grew up in a country were my vote really didn't count. The year before I left Zimbabwe there was a a man running for one of the town council positions who was very popular in my little farming village. He would have won the election if he were in ZANU-PF. My parents were threatened as they tried to vote because whites always voted for MDC. As the votes were being counted he was arrested for a crime he didn't commit and the ZANU man from Mashonaland was declared winner by 98%.

Three days ago I cast my ballot for the Florida midterms and I got a sticker. It doesn't matter that my vote is so minute to be almost insignificant. My vote will be counted and my say, no matter how small, matters.

I don't know...

I just have a very hard time understanding how something can "matter" if with or without its individual addition/existence... the world goes on exactly as before =(

If you hadn't voted, Florida would still get the same government. If you voted opposite to your true beliefs, Florida would still get the same government. But... it matters? I mean, I don't understand =(

Now if you were personally powerful enough to mobilise thousands of votes... that could be a different game.

In most things in life, if you PURPOSELY try to "screw it up" there will be consequences and things will change for the worse. Voting is one of those rare instances, where you can literally do anything or nothing or try to sabotage your own party (by voting in the complete opposite)... and yet nothing changes. No difference is made by your individual action.

I’m really sorry every election isn’t decided by a single vote. That doesnt mean it doesn’t matter. In 2015 Ireland voted to legalize same sex marriage with 61 percent in favor. No one knew how the vote would go as no country had ever done so in a nationwide vote. If everyone had your attitude it might have failed.

Plus the amount of votes someone gets shows their popularity with the populous. Getting 60 percent is far more of mandate than winning with 48 percent.

[Infected Mushroom]

I don't know...

I just have a very hard time understanding how something can "matter" if with or without its individual addition/existence... the world goes on exactly as before =(

If you hadn't voted, Florida would still get the same government. If you voted opposite to your true beliefs, Florida would still get the same government. But... it matters? I mean, I don't understand =(

Now if you were personally powerful enough to mobilise thousands of votes... that could be a different game.

In most things in life, if you PURPOSELY try to "screw it up" there will be consequences and things will change for the worse. Voting is one of those rare instances, where you can literally do anything or nothing or try to sabotage your own party (by voting in the complete opposite)... and yet nothing changes. No difference is made by your individual action.

I'm not powerful enough to mobilise voters no. I'm a ranger for a city park, the most powerful decision I have is whether or not to report illegal fishers, but the people mobilising votes aren't creating them out of thin air. It's in many ways about being more then yourself, my vote won't be the winning vote the election on Tuesday or any election in any country I live in, it will however be part of thousands of other votes that will do something.

What your describing isn't my vote not counting, it's my vote not being the most important vote. I know what it's like for a vote really not to matter and it's far worse than then a petty question of whether or not my vote is important.

So why should I miss out on the chance to earn 1 million every year?

Nothing you say really speaks to that; it still sounds like a very worthless vote, definitely not worth a 1 million dollar revenue stream

Even if it’s “counts,” in some philosophical (but practically non decisive) sense... why should I care?

[Infected Mushroom]

I don't know...

I just have a very hard time understanding how something can "matter" if with or without its individual addition/existence... the world goes on exactly as before =(

If you hadn't voted, Florida would still get the same government. If you voted opposite to your true beliefs, Florida would still get the same government. But... it matters? I mean, I don't understand =(

Now if you were personally powerful enough to mobilise thousands of votes... that could be a different game.

In most things in life, if you PURPOSELY try to "screw it up" there will be consequences and things will change for the worse. Voting is one of those rare instances, where you can literally do anything or nothing or try to sabotage your own party (by voting in the complete opposite)... and yet nothing changes. No difference is made by your individual action.

I’m really sorry every election isn’t decided by a single vote. That doesnt mean it doesn’t matter. In 2015 Ireland voted to legalize same sex marriage with 61 percent in favor. No one knew how the vote would go as no country had ever done so in a nationwide vote. If everyone had your attitude it might have failed.

Plus the amount of votes someone gets shows their popularity with the populous. Getting 60 percent is far more of mandate than winning with 48 percent.

I unironically don’t care about any of that

Not enough to give up on the chance to earn 1 million every year for doing nothing

[The Free Joy State]

I’m really sorry every election isn’t decided by a single vote. That doesnt mean it doesn’t matter. In 2015 Ireland voted to legalize same sex marriage with 61 percent in favor. No one knew how the vote would go as no country had ever done so in a nationwide vote. If everyone had your attitude it might have failed.

Plus the amount of votes someone gets shows their popularity with the populous. Getting 60 percent is far more of mandate than winning with 48 percent.

I unironically don’t care about any of that

Not enough to give up on the chance to earn 1 million every year for doing nothing

So... (this seems to be what you're saying, anyway -- and correct me if I'm wrong) you unironically don't care about whether you -- or indeed anybody else (such as that sixty percent in favour of same-sex marriage) -- has rights, as long as you personally have money?

Hmm...

If so, I guess that's where vote selling will get us. The needs and wishes of the many ignored for the benefit of the few who hold the purse strings.

And don't think you could politick, if you signed over your vote for money (I've seen the claim a few times, and I'd like to address it). I doubt many people would take advice on their participation in the democratic system from someone who'd opted out of democracy for hard cash.

If anyone who signed over their vote for money tried to influence my politics in any way, I'd laugh in their face and slam the door.

[Alvecia]

I unironically don’t care about any of that

Not enough to give up on the chance to earn 1 million every year for doing nothing

So... (this seems to be what you're saying, anyway) you unironically don't care about whether you -- or indeed anybody else (such as that sixty percent in favour of same-sex marriage) -- has civil rights, as long as you personally have money?

Hmm...

If so, that's where vote selling will get us. The needs and wishes of the many ignored for the benefit of the few who hold the purse strings.

And don't think you could politick, if you signed over your vote for money. I doubt many people would take advice on their participation in the democratic system from someone who'd opted out of democracy for hard cash.

If anyone who signed over their vote for money -- if anyone abdicated their political rights for monetary gain -- tried to influence my politics in any way, I'd laugh in their face and slam the door.

That’s something I wanted to bring up actually.
If you were keeping this 1mil strictly for political purposes, then there’s still no guarantee that you’ll actually gain anything.
If you keep your vote, then you’re guaranteed to be able to influence an election by at least 1 vote. You can then lobby for more using your own and/or crowdfunded money.
However if you sell your vote then you lose the guaranteed 1 vote. If your lobbying efforts are completely unsuccessful, even with 1mil, then your political influence has actually decreased.
And in a world where people have the ability and willingness to give you 1mil per annum for a single vote, I can almost guarantee that they’ll be able to out influence your measly 1mil per year without breaking a sweat.

[Infected Mushroom]

I unironically don’t care about any of that

Not enough to give up on the chance to earn 1 million every year for doing nothing

So... (this seems to be what you're saying, anyway -- and correct me if I'm wrong) you unironically don't care about whether you -- or indeed anybody else (such as that sixty percent in favour of same-sex marriage) -- has rights, as long as you personally have money?

Hmm...

If so, I guess that's where vote selling will get us. The needs and wishes of the many ignored for the benefit of the few who hold the purse strings.

And don't think you could politick, if you signed over your vote for money. I doubt many people would take advice on their participation in the democratic system from someone who'd opted out of democracy for hard cash.

If anyone who signed over their vote for money tried to influence my politics in any way, I'd laugh in their face and slam the door.

My decision to make 1 million a year won’t negatively affect anyone else’s rights.

If they are upset that someone gets 2 votes instead of one then as far as I’m concerned, this is just general resentment/envy (since the total number of votes remains unchanged and 2 votes cannot affect any election outcome). I have no duty to protect the ego of voters and their general desire to keep everyone “equal” and mediocre. I feel zero remorse for allowing one person to legally vote twice when I know in practice, the electoral outcomes are the same (no is election in our lifetime will be decided by 2 votes).

And just to be clear, with 1 million a year or not... I personally do not touch elections or the organizations behind them.

[The Free Joy State]

So... (this seems to be what you're saying, anyway) you unironically don't care about whether you -- or indeed anybody else (such as that sixty percent in favour of same-sex marriage) -- has civil rights, as long as you personally have money?

Hmm...

If so, that's where vote selling will get us. The needs and wishes of the many ignored for the benefit of the few who hold the purse strings.

And don't think you could politick, if you signed over your vote for money. I doubt many people would take advice on their participation in the democratic system from someone who'd opted out of democracy for hard cash.

If anyone who signed over their vote for money -- if anyone abdicated their political rights for monetary gain -- tried to influence my politics in any way, I'd laugh in their face and slam the door.

That’s something I wanted to bring up actually.
If you were keeping this 1mil strictly for political purposes, then there’s still no guarantee that you’ll actually gain anything.
If you keep your vote, then you’re guaranteed to be able to influence an election by at least 1 vote. You can then lobby for more using your own and/or crowdfunded money.
However if you sell your vote then you lose the guaranteed 1 vote. If your lobbying efforts are completely unsuccessful, even with 1mil, then your political influence has actually decreased.
And in a world where people have the ability and willingness to give you 1mil per annum for a single vote, I can almost guarantee that they’ll be able to out influence your measly 1mil per year without breaking a sweat.

^ All this.

A world where someone will pay one million for one vote is a world with a massively hyperinflated currency, anyway. So one million is probably not much in buying power.

And what you gain in cash you lose in the tiny bit of influence of your own vote, your one foothold in the system and the ability to persuade others.

You sell your vote, you can't portray it as "I made this sacrifice for you". People will see it as it as it is: you opted out of democracy to be comfortable (or to have a tiny bit of extra money, in hyperinflation), but still want to tell them what to do with their vote -- it's hypocrisy (I sold my vote to the highest bidder now let me tell you how to use yours' responsibly).

[Infected Mushroom]

That’s something I wanted to bring up actually.
If you were keeping this 1mil strictly for political purposes, then there’s still no guarantee that you’ll actually gain anything.
If you keep your vote, then you’re guaranteed to be able to influence an election by at least 1 vote. You can then lobby for more using your own and/or crowdfunded money.
However if you sell your vote then you lose the guaranteed 1 vote. If your lobbying efforts are completely unsuccessful, even with 1mil, then your political influence has actually decreased.
And in a world where people have the ability and willingness to give you 1mil per annum for a single vote, I can almost guarantee that they’ll be able to out influence your measly 1mil per year without breaking a sweat.

^ All this.

A world where someone will pay one million for one vote is a world with a massively hyperinflated currency, anyway. So one million is probably not much in buying power.

And what you gain in cash you lose in the tiny bit of influence of your own vote, your one foothold in the system and the ability to persuade others.

You sell your vote, you can't portray it as "I made this sacrifice for you". People will see it as it as it is: you opted out of democracy to be comfortable (or to have a tiny bit of extra money, in hyperinflation), but still want to tell them what to do with their vote -- it's hypocrisy (I sold my vote to the highest bidder now let me tell you how to use yours' responsibly).

The people will be rushing to sell and won’t even stop to philosophize

They already have a low opinion of the system and there is a general sense that since they don’t play fair, I don’t have to either

[Alvecia]

So... (this seems to be what you're saying, anyway -- and correct me if I'm wrong) you unironically don't care about whether you -- or indeed anybody else (such as that sixty percent in favour of same-sex marriage) -- has rights, as long as you personally have money?

Hmm...

If so, I guess that's where vote selling will get us. The needs and wishes of the many ignored for the benefit of the few who hold the purse strings.

And don't think you could politick, if you signed over your vote for money. I doubt many people would take advice on their participation in the democratic system from someone who'd opted out of democracy for hard cash.

If anyone who signed over their vote for money tried to influence my politics in any way, I'd laugh in their face and slam the door.

My decision to make 1 million a year won’t negatively affect anyone else’s rights.

I mean, it kinda will. By giving someone else a second vote, you’ve relegated everyone else to having half as much say in the running of the country they live in.
You’ve deprived them of their equality.

[Infected Mushroom]

My decision to make 1 million a year won’t negatively affect anyone else’s rights.

I mean, it kinda will. By giving someone else a second vote, you’ve relegated everyone else to having half as much say in the running of the country they live in.
You’ve deprived them of their equality.

The equality was never there since a person with just 1 vote but a lot more money and popularity could swing tons of votes

[Alvecia]

I mean, it kinda will. By giving someone else a second vote, you’ve relegated everyone else to having half as much say in the running of the country they live in.
You’ve deprived them of their equality.

The equality was never there since a person with just 1 vote but a lot more money and popularity could swing tons of votes

They were still equal.
I could have a chat with my mate and convince him to use his vote a particular way for completely free, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have equal say.

[The Free Joy State]

So... (this seems to be what you're saying, anyway -- and correct me if I'm wrong) you unironically don't care about whether you -- or indeed anybody else (such as that sixty percent in favour of same-sex marriage) -- has rights, as long as you personally have money?

Hmm...

If so, I guess that's where vote selling will get us. The needs and wishes of the many ignored for the benefit of the few who hold the purse strings.

And don't think you could politick, if you signed over your vote for money. I doubt many people would take advice on their participation in the democratic system from someone who'd opted out of democracy for hard cash.

If anyone who signed over their vote for money tried to influence my politics in any way, I'd laugh in their face and slam the door.

My decision to make 1 million a year won’t negatively affect anyone else’s rights.

Yes you are. You are devaluing everyone else's votes. The principle is "one person, one vote" for a purpose.

^ All this.

A world where someone will pay one million for one vote is a world with a massively hyperinflated currency, anyway. So one million is probably not much in buying power.

And what you gain in cash you lose in the tiny bit of influence of your own vote, your one foothold in the system and the ability to persuade others.

You sell your vote, you can't portray it as "I made this sacrifice for you". People will see it as it as it is: you opted out of democracy to be comfortable (or to have a tiny bit of extra money, in hyperinflation), but still want to tell them what to do with their vote -- it's hypocrisy (I sold my vote to the highest bidder now let me tell you how to use yours' responsibly).

The people will be rushing to sell and won’t even stop to philosophize

They already have a low opinion of the system and there is a general sense that since they don’t play fair, I don’t have to either

That it will be widespread was not in your original OP, which I am sticking to.

And, what of hyperinflation? What if one million dollars was so devalued -- because, realistically, that it the only way that any billionaire would be buying votes for millions -- that it was worth $20 or $50 or $100?

How many people would still perpetually give up their one right to a say in the political process then?

EDIT: Not that most people would disenfranchise themselves now. Few people believe the system is good or great, but few would rush to abandon it.

[Alvecia]

Even were it widespread, the money changing hands is ridiculous. Some back of the envelope calculations show that if Bill Gates (arguably the richest person on the planet) used his entire net worth to purchase votes, he could only it 95,600 votes for a single year, after which, he wouldn’t be able to pay up again the next year.

[The Free Joy State]

Even were it widespread, the money changing hands is ridiculous. Some back of the envelope calculations show that if Bill Gates (arguably the richest person on the planet) used his entire net worth to purchase votes, he could only it 95,600 votes for a single year, after which, he wouldn’t be able to pay up again the next year.

True.

Which is why hyperinflation is the only way it would work. Germany circa November 1923 would work for reference. 1 dollar was worth 4,210,500,000,000 Marks. Reverse the sum: 1 euro worth 4,210,500,000,000 dollars.

Then Bill Gates -- or equivalent -- could afford all those votes.

Of course, one million would be worthless, so you sold the vote for literally nothing. But, hey... Society's already pretty unusual in this hypothetical, seeing as vote-selling is legal.

[Alvecia]

Even were it widespread, the money changing hands is ridiculous. Some back of the envelope calculations show that if Bill Gates (arguably the richest person on the planet) used his entire net worth to purchase votes, he could only it 95,600 votes for a single year, after which, he wouldn’t be able to pay up again the next year.

True.

Which is why hyperinflation is the only way it would work. Germany circa November 1923 would work for reference. 1 dollar was worth 4,210,500,000,000 Marks. Reverse the sum: 1 euro worth 4,210,500,000,000 dollars.

Then Bill Gates -- or equivalent -- could afford all those votes.

Of course, one million would be worthless. But, hey... We appear to be living in a pretty messed-up society in this hypothetical, seeing as vote-selling is legal.

With the currency being that bad, I suspect the people who have the ability to buy votes would be better off burning it for warmth.

[Alvecia]

Does raise an interesting question though. This exchange is supposed to be permanent, but what happens if the person paying runs out of money?
Does the vote default back to the original voter? Or is it picked up by the purchasers creditors?

[The Free Joy State]

Does raise an interesting question though. This exchange is supposed to be permanent, but what happens if the person paying runs out of money?
Does the vote default back to the original voter? Or is it picked up by the purchasers creditors?

Well, the OP states:

YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO VOTE AGAIN IN ANY KIND OF POLITICAL ELECTION WHATSOEVER ANYWHERE ANYTIME.

So I guess the voter could never take it back.

So... Maybe the vote would be repossessed, and the original buyer's creditors would take over? Or the buyer could sell it on eBay before that happened: "One Vote: 2 Previous Owners. Slightly Soiled."?

[Alvecia]

Does raise an interesting question though. This exchange is supposed to be permanent, but what happens if the person paying runs out of money?
Does the vote default back to the original voter? Or is it picked up by the purchasers creditors?

Well, the OP states:

YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO VOTE AGAIN IN ANY KIND OF POLITICAL ELECTION WHATSOEVER ANYWHERE ANYTIME.

So... Maybe your vote would be repossessed, and the creditors would take over? Or the buyer could sell it on eBay before that happened: "One Vote: 2 Previous Owners. Slightly Soiled"?

I presume the creditors continue to pay the original voter though, right? In which case the creditor is eventually gonna end up with a load of votes they don’t want, cause it’s bleeding them money.

Alternatively the state could buy out the votes. Creditor nations are a thing. Can you imagine if the state owned the votes needed to elect itself.

China is currently the biggest Creditor Nation with an investment potential of 1,596,453,015,000 USD. Even that would only be enough to support ~0.1% of their own population.

[The Free Joy State]

Well, the OP states:


So... Maybe your vote would be repossessed, and the creditors would take over? Or the buyer could sell it on eBay before that happened: "One Vote: 2 Previous Owners. Slightly Soiled"?

I presume the creditors continue to pay the original voter though, right? In which case the creditor is eventually gonna end up with a load of votes they don’t want, cause it’s bleeding them money.

Alternatively the state could buy out the votes. Creditor nations are a thing. Can you imagine if the state owned the votes needed to elect itself.

China is currently the biggest Creditor Nation with an investment potential of 1,596,453,015,000 USD. Even that would only be enough to support ~0.1% of their own population.

Of course, Creditor Nations could just print a lot more money to buy all the defaulted votes.

This would have two benefits (for the Creditor Nation): one, they would own all the votes they need to remain in power perpetually; two, due to the continually devalued currency, the economy would be so utterly screwed up that their people would be too busy scrabbling in the dirt for the money to buy a loaf of bread to care (including the ones whose votes had been bought).

It would be pretty diabolical. But I'm sure there were/are some regimes that would do it, and would still claim to be democratically elected in those hypothetical circumstances.