NATION

PASSWORD

US Ed Dept Takes Controversial Definition of "Anti-Semitism"

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Dahon
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5892
Founded: Nov 11, 2015
Ex-Nation

US Ed Dept Takes Controversial Definition of "Anti-Semitism"

Postby Dahon » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:27 pm

How controversial, you ask? Let's get down to it with an article from Politico, as shown below:

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/mo ... ism-336946

The Trump administration is changing how the Education Department investigates allegations of discrimination against Jewish students, backing an approach that is favored by pro-Israel groups but that critics worry will stifle free speech on campus.

The policy change was outlined in a letter last month by Kenneth Marcus, who leads the department’s Office for Civil Rights, in which he re-opened a 2011 investigation into Rutgers University about alleged discrimination against Jewish students. Marcus wrote that the Education Department, in its investigations into discrimination, would adopt the “working definition” of anti-Semitism that is “widely used by governmental agencies” including the State Department. That definition includes examples in which demonizing or delegitimizing Israel, or holding it to a double standard not expected of other democratic nations, are deemed anti-Semitic.

The Obama administration closed the Rutgers case in 2014 citing insufficient evidence of discrimination. Marcus' letter says the department will now reevaluate the evidence “in light of the definition of anti-Semitism.” Investigators will seek to determine, Marcus wrote, “whether a hostile environment on the basis of national origin or race existed at the University for students of actual or perceived Jewish ancestry or ethnic characteristics.”

Congress has debated the definition over the past several years. In 2016, the Senate overwhelmingly passed bipartisan legislation that would have forced the department to use the State Department definition in evaluating discrimination complaints. But the bill hit a snag in the House over concerns that it could interfere with students’ free speech rights. The House Judiciary Committee held a hearing on the bill earlier this year, but the legislation so far hasn’t gone anywhere in this Congress.

But civil liberties and free speech groups have opposed the definition. The groups, including the American Civil Liberties Union, the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education and PEN America, argue that the definition of anti-Semitism is too broad and would threaten political speech, such as criticism of Israel policy, on college campuses.

“It’s certainly something that we feared would happen,” said Dima Khalidi, director of Palestine Legal, adding that the new definition “opens the door to equate any criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism.” Khalidi also criticized the Education Department for adopting the definition “without any process or public input.”

Several pro-Israel groups, meanwhile, including the American Jewish Committee, praised the Trump administration’s move. The Zionist Organization of America, which filed the original complaint against Rutgers and appealed, praised the Education Department’s “landmark” decision to adopt the definition.


... well, on the bright side, at least "Trump is an antisemite" is definitely dead and buried. On the not-so-bright side, though?

It's a no-brainer to say that criticism of Israeli policy does not automatically mean bigotry against Jews in general -- that some Jews will do bad shit does not mean every Jew is evil, let alone be part of a malevolent hive mind that feeds on the helpless and whose utter elimination is the only solution.

However, as much as I would love to append "(conspiracy theorists, antisemites, and other fuckups aside)", I can't, due to this development. The limited subject of college free speech aside (and with Trump who knows where this will end?), the implications from hereon are terrifying, not least for those lobbying on Israel's behalf. I mean, really, you really want to fuel the flames of bigotry by implicitly endorsing the nonsense that has gotten untold millions of whoever the Nazis called Jews murdered in Europe more than 7 decades ago? For political gain? Are you fucks this fucking shortsighted?

Anyway, guys, your thoughts and all.
Last edited by Dahon on Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Authoritarianism kills all. Never forget that.

-5.5/-7.44

al-Ibramiyah (inactive; under research)
Moscareinas (inactive)
Trumpisslavia (inactive)
Dahon the Alternative (inactive; under research)
Our Heavenly Dwarf (Forum 7)

User avatar
Petrasylvania
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10647
Founded: Oct 20, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Petrasylvania » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:32 pm

Criticizing Israel is now antisemetism?

I thought it was Liberal SJWs that were supposed to come up with shit like that.
Crimes committed by Muslims will be proof of a pan-Islamic plot and Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand, crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of mentally ill lone wolves who do not represent their professed belief system at all.
The probability of someone secretly participating in homosexual acts is directly proportional to the frequency and loudness of their publicly professed disapproval and/or disgust for homosexuality.
If Donald Trump accuses an individual of malfeasance without evidence, it is almost a certainty either he or someone associated with him has in fact committed that very same malfeasance to a greater degree.

New Flag Courtesy of The Realist Polities

User avatar
MERIZoC
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23694
Founded: Dec 05, 2013
Left-wing Utopia

Postby MERIZoC » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:32 pm

... well, on the bright side, at least "Trump is an antisemite" is definitely dead and buried.

What on earth would make you say that? Zionists have a track record of working with nazis and other such anti semites and Trump's alliance with the Israel lobby is no exception.

User avatar
Herador
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8907
Founded: Mar 08, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Herador » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:33 pm

Seems like a fairly typical reaction for US Education policymakers these days, honestly. "Zero tolerance" type policy's have been a thing for a while now, and this has the whiff of that kind of thinking on it.

On the "criticizing Israel is anti-Jewish" front, I can see the argument, I get where they're coming from, but again, it smells oddly of a zero tolerance policy, and those have a habit of either backfiring or not really working. I think the intention here is probably good, but the execution smacks of a rushed solution that wasn't totally thought out.

Petrasylvania wrote:Criticizing Israel is now antisemetism?

I thought it was Liberal SJWs that were supposed to come up with shit like that.

I miss 2004 when everything made sense and I knew who to hate.
Last edited by Herador on Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vaguely a pessimist, certainly an absurdist, unironically an antinatalist.

User avatar
Internationalist Bastard
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24520
Founded: Aug 09, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Internationalist Bastard » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:36 pm

I don’t see a problem in the wording per se
It does annoy me we’re doubling down on “none shall oppose Israel”
Call me Alex, I insist
I am a girl, damnit
Slut Pride. So like, real talk, I’m a porn actress. We’re not all bimbos. I do not give out my information or videos to avoid conflict with site policy. I’m happy to talk about the industry or my thoughts on the career but I will not be showing you any goodies. Sorry
“Whatever you are, be a good one” Abe Lincoln

User avatar
Dahon
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5892
Founded: Nov 11, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Dahon » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:38 pm

MERIZoC wrote:
... well, on the bright side, at least "Trump is an antisemite" is definitely dead and buried.

What on earth would make you say that? Zionists have a track record of working with nazis and other such anti semites and Trump's alliance with the Israel lobby is no exception.


As I said, "bright side".
Authoritarianism kills all. Never forget that.

-5.5/-7.44

al-Ibramiyah (inactive; under research)
Moscareinas (inactive)
Trumpisslavia (inactive)
Dahon the Alternative (inactive; under research)
Our Heavenly Dwarf (Forum 7)

User avatar
Herador
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8907
Founded: Mar 08, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Herador » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:39 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:I don’t see a problem in the wording per se
It does annoy me we’re doubling down on “none shall oppose Israel”

Call it a slippery slope (cause it is) but I can see this coming to bite someone in the ass for making a fairly benign criticism of Israel at some point in their history and someone taking offense and reporting it.
Vaguely a pessimist, certainly an absurdist, unironically an antinatalist.

User avatar
United Massachusetts
Minister
 
Posts: 2574
Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby United Massachusetts » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:40 pm

One can criticize Israel without holding it to a double standard. This is sensible; anti-Zionism and anti-semitism are often related, as much as many wouldn't like to admit it.

Also, if this is referring to Israel:
I mean, really, you really want to fuel the flames of bigotry by implicitly endorsing the nonsense that has gotten untold millions of whoever the Nazis called Jews murdered in Europe more than 7 decades ago?


I'd be more than a little concerned by the level of Holocaust distortionism going on here.
Last edited by United Massachusetts on Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Petrasylvania
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10647
Founded: Oct 20, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Petrasylvania » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:41 pm

Dahon wrote:
MERIZoC wrote:What on earth would make you say that? Zionists have a track record of working with nazis and other such anti semites and Trump's alliance with the Israel lobby is no exception.


As I said, "bright side".

The same guy who said there were Good People On Both Sides at Charlottesville, one of which consisted of a Polo Shirt brigade waving Tiki torches and talking about Jews like they were body snatching alien vegetables.
Crimes committed by Muslims will be proof of a pan-Islamic plot and Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand, crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of mentally ill lone wolves who do not represent their professed belief system at all.
The probability of someone secretly participating in homosexual acts is directly proportional to the frequency and loudness of their publicly professed disapproval and/or disgust for homosexuality.
If Donald Trump accuses an individual of malfeasance without evidence, it is almost a certainty either he or someone associated with him has in fact committed that very same malfeasance to a greater degree.

New Flag Courtesy of The Realist Polities

User avatar
Internationalist Bastard
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24520
Founded: Aug 09, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Internationalist Bastard » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:41 pm

Herador wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:I don’t see a problem in the wording per se
It does annoy me we’re doubling down on “none shall oppose Israel”

Call it a slippery slope (cause it is) but I can see this coming to bite someone in the ass for making a fairly benign criticism of Israel at some point in their history and someone taking offense and reporting it.

Considering that’s what already happens I’ll believe it
You know how hard it is to complain about human rights violations performed by a government when they can instantly declare anyone who points them out as anti semites?
Call me Alex, I insist
I am a girl, damnit
Slut Pride. So like, real talk, I’m a porn actress. We’re not all bimbos. I do not give out my information or videos to avoid conflict with site policy. I’m happy to talk about the industry or my thoughts on the career but I will not be showing you any goodies. Sorry
“Whatever you are, be a good one” Abe Lincoln

User avatar
United Massachusetts
Minister
 
Posts: 2574
Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby United Massachusetts » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:43 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Herador wrote:Call it a slippery slope (cause it is) but I can see this coming to bite someone in the ass for making a fairly benign criticism of Israel at some point in their history and someone taking offense and reporting it.

Considering that’s what already happens I’ll believe it
You know how hard it is to complain about human rights violations performed by a government when they can instantly declare anyone who points them out as anti semites?

Israel gets held to a double standard. It has by far the best human rights record of any nation in its region.

User avatar
Major-Tom
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15697
Founded: Mar 09, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Major-Tom » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:43 pm

For fuck's sake, being against Israeli government policy that has infringed on the rights of men & women is not the same thing as anti-semitism.

It's like saying criticizing, say, the US for it's disastrous foreign policy is inherently Anti-American.

User avatar
United Massachusetts
Minister
 
Posts: 2574
Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby United Massachusetts » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:44 pm

Major-Tom wrote:For fuck's sake, being against Israeli government policy that has infringed on the rights of men & women is not the same thing as anti-semitism.

It's like saying criticizing, say, the US for it's disastrous foreign policy is inherently Anti-American.

Different than holding it to a double-standard.

User avatar
Internationalist Bastard
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24520
Founded: Aug 09, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Internationalist Bastard » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:44 pm

United Massachusetts wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:Considering that’s what already happens I’ll believe it
You know how hard it is to complain about human rights violations performed by a government when they can instantly declare anyone who points them out as anti semites?

Israel gets held to a double standard. It has by far the best human rights record of any nation in its region.

Which is not a compliment to Israel
Call me Alex, I insist
I am a girl, damnit
Slut Pride. So like, real talk, I’m a porn actress. We’re not all bimbos. I do not give out my information or videos to avoid conflict with site policy. I’m happy to talk about the industry or my thoughts on the career but I will not be showing you any goodies. Sorry
“Whatever you are, be a good one” Abe Lincoln

User avatar
Petrasylvania
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10647
Founded: Oct 20, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Petrasylvania » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:45 pm

United Massachusetts wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:For fuck's sake, being against Israeli government policy that has infringed on the rights of men & women is not the same thing as anti-semitism.

It's like saying criticizing, say, the US for it's disastrous foreign policy is inherently Anti-American.

Different than holding it to a double-standard.

Unless of course the double standard favors Israel.
Crimes committed by Muslims will be proof of a pan-Islamic plot and Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand, crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of mentally ill lone wolves who do not represent their professed belief system at all.
The probability of someone secretly participating in homosexual acts is directly proportional to the frequency and loudness of their publicly professed disapproval and/or disgust for homosexuality.
If Donald Trump accuses an individual of malfeasance without evidence, it is almost a certainty either he or someone associated with him has in fact committed that very same malfeasance to a greater degree.

New Flag Courtesy of The Realist Polities

User avatar
Dahon
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5892
Founded: Nov 11, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Dahon » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:45 pm

One can defend Israel without insisting on a de facto definition of that same Israel as "that Jewish ethnostate that serves Jews and only Jews and that none shall oppose, especially those fucking 'Nakba!'-hollering Palestinian bastards and their supporters".

I mean, tying the existence of one state to the continued supremacy of one people (and the implied and explicit oppression of all others) is a really shitty tactic.
Authoritarianism kills all. Never forget that.

-5.5/-7.44

al-Ibramiyah (inactive; under research)
Moscareinas (inactive)
Trumpisslavia (inactive)
Dahon the Alternative (inactive; under research)
Our Heavenly Dwarf (Forum 7)

User avatar
Major-Tom
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15697
Founded: Mar 09, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Major-Tom » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:46 pm

United Massachusetts wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:For fuck's sake, being against Israeli government policy that has infringed on the rights of men & women is not the same thing as anti-semitism.

It's like saying criticizing, say, the US for it's disastrous foreign policy is inherently Anti-American.

Different than holding it to a double-standard.


I wouldn't necessarily keep falling back on this phrase "double-standard" even when it is mentioned in the OP.

One can be critical of Israel's policies, while also critiquing Turkey, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and yes, even Palestine. Wouldn't call that a double standard. Yes, there are certainly some people who engage in a double standard, but many other people who point out human right's abuses and violations of international law whenever they see it. Count me, and many others around these parts, as part of the latter.

User avatar
Herador
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8907
Founded: Mar 08, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Herador » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:46 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Herador wrote:Call it a slippery slope (cause it is) but I can see this coming to bite someone in the ass for making a fairly benign criticism of Israel at some point in their history and someone taking offense and reporting it.

Considering that’s what already happens I’ll believe it
You know how hard it is to complain about human rights violations performed by a government when they can instantly declare anyone who points them out as anti semites?

I can see the argument now, ~page 9-10, that educators need to teach facts and not give opinions and that opinions on Israel should be kept to themselves. But honestly? A lot of the best book learnin' I had at the high school and college level was when my teacher/prof got candid and shared their honest views on something. It was clear their view was just that, I had a history professor go on about the virtues of a pure anarchist society once while talking about Neolithic Britons and a professor for a Central American Native History course go off for a solid ten minutes on why Ancient Aliens was shit, but both of those moments gave me something real to think about.

An opinion can be worth something in the classroom, I think, and this is just going to force people who might give someone a new perspective to stay quiet out of fear.

United Massachusetts wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:Considering that’s what already happens I’ll believe it
You know how hard it is to complain about human rights violations performed by a government when they can instantly declare anyone who points them out as anti semites?

Israel gets held to a double standard. It has by far the best human rights record of any nation in its region.

Taking first place in a "don't be the worst" contest when everyone else is tied for last isn't something you should wear too proudly.
Last edited by Herador on Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vaguely a pessimist, certainly an absurdist, unironically an antinatalist.

User avatar
United Massachusetts
Minister
 
Posts: 2574
Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby United Massachusetts » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:47 pm

Dahon wrote:One can defend Israel without insisting on a de facto definition of that same Israel as "that Jewish ethnostate that serves Jews and only Jews and that none shall oppose, especially those fucking 'Nakba!'-hollering Palestinian bastards and their supporters".

I mean, tying the existence of one state to the continued supremacy of one people (and the implied and explicit oppression of all others) is a really shitty tactic.

Israel doesn't advocate Jewish superiority. Over 1 million Arabs live in Israel with full legal equality. The same cannot be said of Israel's neighbors.

User avatar
Petrasylvania
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10647
Founded: Oct 20, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Petrasylvania » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:48 pm

It's Israel trying to no-platform criticism of its policies in the U.S. and it's made possible by Donnie's eagerness to suck off the Israeli government's kosher dill.

If nobody hears from me in a week, it was Mossad.
Crimes committed by Muslims will be proof of a pan-Islamic plot and Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand, crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of mentally ill lone wolves who do not represent their professed belief system at all.
The probability of someone secretly participating in homosexual acts is directly proportional to the frequency and loudness of their publicly professed disapproval and/or disgust for homosexuality.
If Donald Trump accuses an individual of malfeasance without evidence, it is almost a certainty either he or someone associated with him has in fact committed that very same malfeasance to a greater degree.

New Flag Courtesy of The Realist Polities

User avatar
United Massachusetts
Minister
 
Posts: 2574
Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby United Massachusetts » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:48 pm

Major-Tom wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote:Different than holding it to a double-standard.


I wouldn't necessarily keep falling back on this phrase "double-standard" even when it is mentioned in the OP.

One can be critical of Israel's policies, while also critiquing Turkey, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and yes, even Palestine. Wouldn't call that a double standard. Yes, there are certainly some people who engage in a double standard, but many other people who point out human right's abuses and violations of international law whenever they see it. Count me, and many others around these parts, as part of the latter.

Great. Then, since you aren't delegitimizing Israel, or holding it to a double standard, what's the problem?

User avatar
Internationalist Bastard
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24520
Founded: Aug 09, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Internationalist Bastard » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:48 pm

United Massachusetts wrote:
Dahon wrote:One can defend Israel without insisting on a de facto definition of that same Israel as "that Jewish ethnostate that serves Jews and only Jews and that none shall oppose, especially those fucking 'Nakba!'-hollering Palestinian bastards and their supporters".

I mean, tying the existence of one state to the continued supremacy of one people (and the implied and explicit oppression of all others) is a really shitty tactic.

Israel doesn't advocate Jewish superiority. Over 1 million Arabs live in Israel with full legal equality. The same cannot be said of Israel's neighbors.

Yes a bastion of equality
That’s why they’ve been charged with committing an ethnic cleansing caimpain
Call me Alex, I insist
I am a girl, damnit
Slut Pride. So like, real talk, I’m a porn actress. We’re not all bimbos. I do not give out my information or videos to avoid conflict with site policy. I’m happy to talk about the industry or my thoughts on the career but I will not be showing you any goodies. Sorry
“Whatever you are, be a good one” Abe Lincoln

User avatar
Herador
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8907
Founded: Mar 08, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Herador » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:50 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote:Israel doesn't advocate Jewish superiority. Over 1 million Arabs live in Israel with full legal equality. The same cannot be said of Israel's neighbors.

Yes a bastion of equality
That’s why they’ve been charged with committing an ethnic cleansing caimpain

A country can't make a ghetto for a specific race and creed and then claim a great civil rights record.
Vaguely a pessimist, certainly an absurdist, unironically an antinatalist.

User avatar
United Massachusetts
Minister
 
Posts: 2574
Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby United Massachusetts » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:50 pm

Petrasylvania wrote:It's Israel trying to no-platform criticism of its policies in the U.S. and it's made possible by Donnie's eagerness to suck off the Israeli government's kosher dill.

If nobody hears from me in a week, it was Mossad.

Israel would not exist if it wasn't for the United States. The destruction of Israel would, of course, mean the genocide of the Jewish people.

So yeah, it seems pretty important that the US support Israel.

User avatar
Major-Tom
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15697
Founded: Mar 09, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Major-Tom » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:50 pm

United Massachusetts wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:
I wouldn't necessarily keep falling back on this phrase "double-standard" even when it is mentioned in the OP.

One can be critical of Israel's policies, while also critiquing Turkey, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and yes, even Palestine. Wouldn't call that a double standard. Yes, there are certainly some people who engage in a double standard, but many other people who point out human right's abuses and violations of international law whenever they see it. Count me, and many others around these parts, as part of the latter.

Great. Then, since you aren't delegitimizing Israel, or holding it to a double standard, what's the problem?


For me, it's about free speech. If someone wants to hold Israel to a double standard on a campus, that's fine. So long as they aren't advocating violence and engaging in overt hate speech/threatening rhetoric, then they should have the right to express their opinions.

Just as someone should be able to be on campus and say "Hey guys, North Korea is a beacon of human rights," one should at least be allowed to say "Yo, Iran, Turkey, idgaf, but Israel, oh now that country pisses me off."

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Emotional Support Crocodile, GMS Greater Miami Shores 1, Grinning Dragon, Gun Manufacturers, Ifreann, ML Library, Omphalos, Soviet Haaregrad, Statesburg, The Archregimancy, Trump Almighty, Turenia, Uiiop

Advertisement

Remove ads