American to deportee: Take me with you, I'll pay.

[Yagon]

Spoilered answer to "Wait, why would an American want to go with a deportee to an impoverished area of Mexico?"

*Rod Serling's voice*

Imagine the below fictional (and thus non-sourcable) world:

Picture if you will a future of such economic disparity that by crossing one border, a 2-pack-a-day smoking habit costing $420 becomes 4 packs a day for $150 and an apartment can be had for $200 a month. In Mexico it costs less for housing than what a chain smoker saves on cigarettes.

In the United States, Silicon Valley skilled entry level tech workers have been found renting crawlspaces and living in vans.

Some of those workers are able to work remotely, they just need reliable internet, much of which can now be accomplished cellularly.

Some fewer of them take a dark (and probably needlessly alarmist) view of the political, economic, and social sustainability of our rapidly transforming civilization. New Zealand shuts its doors to the purchase of land by foreign nationals after billioinaire tech lords begin buying up so much land for post-Collapse survival that it's effecting their local economy.

The droughts are so common now, and they are increasingly everywhere. We are more interconnected than ever, and although the Developed World will use its wealth to shield itself, it finds its wealth is principally digital, abstract, and invested in financial and political institutions that are destabilizing.

The data driven billionaires are buying silos, building bunkers, paying a New York professor's half yearly salary to sit in a room with 5 hedge fund billionaires so they can ask questions about how to control their armed guards when money is meaningless.

Should they use disciplinary collars? Have the only code to open the vault with the food supplies? This is how the wealthy are thinking. They are preparing.

Rats don't leave a sinking ship first.

An unethical captain does. He's at the wheel. He sees the iceberg, and after what he spent to own the boat, he's not going down.

Sadly, the entry level tech worker is not wealthy, disciplinary collars are inhumane and ridiculous, and nobody keeps the code secret with an MP-5 to their kid's head.

So how do you trust the people around you when things get bad?

Humans survive as families. As clans. As communities.

As ejido.

So how does a gringo remote tech worker join an ejido? Well, the only likely way he'd encounter one is a deportee being thrown out of America for daring to want to work and send money to their family.

But the gringo can work anywhere with internet, and is paid in American dollars. Not many by American standards, but enough to make the deportee a better offer than America did.

The crazy gringos offer?

"Take me home with you to an Ejido community, help me find housing in a town with sufficient internet. Find me a host family I will pay $600 USD month rent (now almost 12,000 pesos), and purchase materials and hire local workers to build a tiny house on Ejido land for me to live in the community."

"I will buy the food you grow. I will buy and wear the clothes you make. I will learn your language. I will stop bringing up Game of Thrones if I can tell nobody cares."

"When I die, the house and the rest of my shit will go to the community." (...likely without any crazy Mad Max shit having gone on in the States, but just in case...)

Topic of Debate: Would any Ejido community accept this? Do you? What are the cultural implications of this?

My opinion: Aside from the technical issue of finding ejido communities with decent internet, it does appear somewhat condescending. That said, minimum wage in Mexico is $5 a day. Even adding $1,000 USD a month to their local economy might keep a few mouths fed.

Your thoughts?

[Petrolheadia]

Rich people trying to save themselves?

That's crazy, I thought earning seven figures makes you lose all sense of self-preservation.

[Uxupox]

Paying $600 rent to live in an ejido? That person is a complete idiot or maybe a masochist.

[Yagon]

Rich people trying to save themselves?

That's crazy, I thought earning seven figures makes you lose all sense of self-preservation.

It's precisely self-preservation at hand, for the rich and poor. Of course, it's notable the rich (not all, but the ones exerting the most control) have obtained their wealth in a system that has led to the risk to their own survival.

Of course we course we may take it as obvious that the rich (and the poor) will act within the limits of their resources and planning ability to survive, an apt reading of the OP sees that reflected.

So, any thoughts beyond that?

[Yagon]

Paying $600 rent to live in an ejido? That person is a complete idiot or maybe a masochist.

Elaborate on why you consider it idiocy.

What is that person accomplishing with that $600? Whether they are successful or not, what are they trying to accomplish, and why do you believe it would fail?

[The South Falls]

It seems a little condescending, yes. But, it could help. I hope he doesn't make fun of them.

[Yagon]

It seems a little condescending, yes. But, it could help. I hope he doesn't make fun of them.

I would imagine given that he would represent the variation from the dominant norm from him, so he'd like be the one teased for his lack of cultural knowledge. If it's good natured, it's to be expected, I suppose.

[The South Falls]

It seems a little condescending, yes. But, it could help. I hope he doesn't make fun of them.

I would imagine given that he would represent the variation from the dominant norm from him, so he'd like be the one teased for his lack of cultural knowledge. If it's good natured, it's to be expected, I suppose.

Hopefully, it's good-natured. But, it'll really help the economy.

[Uxupox]

Paying $600 rent to live in an ejido? That person is a complete idiot or maybe a masochist.

Elaborate on why you consider it idiocy.

What is that person accomplishing with that $600? Whether they are successful or not, what are they trying to accomplish, and why do you believe it would fail?

Living in an Ejido gives him a severe devastating disadvantage over any other of the natives in the area. First of all an ejido is communal community based on the local native ethnic culture group in which strongly disassociates with "extranjeros" or as it is known in English foreigners. Now even if the guy comes out of rural Kansas the lifestyle that he/she will face would be completely alien comparable to the surface of moon. You as a part of the communal ejido are expected to give proportionally back to what you take from the community. You are expected to earn your keep (Will he use his own acquired money to pay for his mayhaps indefinite stay? Idk).

[Uxupox]

I would imagine given that he would represent the variation from the dominant norm from him, so he'd like be the one teased for his lack of cultural knowledge. If it's good natured, it's to be expected, I suppose.

Hopefully, it's good-natured. But, it'll really help the economy.

Probably not. There is an absence in a circular flow of income here.

[Yagon]

Elaborate on why you consider it idiocy.

What is that person accomplishing with that $600? Whether they are successful or not, what are they trying to accomplish, and why do you believe it would fail?

Living in an Ejido gives him a severe devastating disadvantage over any other of the natives in the area. First of all an ejido is communal community based on the local native ethnic culture group in which strongly disassociates with "extranjeros" or as it is known in English foreigners. Now even if the guy comes out of rural Kansas the lifestyle that he/she will face would be completely alien comparable to the surface of moon. You as a part of the communal ejido are expected to give proportionally back to what you take from the community. You are expected to earn your keep (Will he use his own acquired money to pay for his mayhaps indefinite stay? Idk).

So, if for example the person paid for their food (locally purchased) with money earned by a remote tech job, hired local workers to build things, and brought into the community roughly an order of magnitude more than the typical local worker, would that be considered proportionately giving back?

If this was used to build housing, perhaps buy goats and other livestock, purchase of tools and basic machinery, things like that, could the aggregate value added by the gringos dollars (say, over a period of 5-10 years before the theoretical and unlikely Collapse) would that be considered earning his keep?

$600 might go a long way for a family every month in a Ejido for sharing housing with one person.

The moon might be a bit of an illustrative exaggeration, but it's salient that people have walked on the moon. There are people who have gone to very different lifestyles with far less expense than the Apollo program. It is jarring, it is a transformation, and failure is as possible as in all things.

If I'm understanding your principle objection, it is that the person would not be contributing significantly? Say they spent $1,000 USD into the community each month, and tutored English to any who wanted. Is that not helpful to them enough to add a community member?

[Yagon]

Hopefully, it's good-natured. But, it'll really help the economy.

Probably not. There is an absence in a circular flow of income here.

Can you explain? Unless there is a Collapse that happened soon, the income would be coming from the US to Mexico, much as it would if a Mexican worker came to the US to work and sent money back. It's just in this case ,the US worker goes to Mexico and pays money earned with American companies for remote work into the Ejido community.

[Uxupox]

Living in an Ejido gives him a severe devastating disadvantage over any other of the natives in the area. First of all an ejido is communal community based on the local native ethnic culture group in which strongly disassociates with "extranjeros" or as it is known in English foreigners. Now even if the guy comes out of rural Kansas the lifestyle that he/she will face would be completely alien comparable to the surface of moon. You as a part of the communal ejido are expected to give proportionally back to what you take from the community. You are expected to earn your keep (Will he use his own acquired money to pay for his mayhaps indefinite stay? Idk).

So, if for example the person paid for their food (locally purchased) with money earned by a remote tech job, hired local workers to build things, and brought into the community roughly an order of magnitude more than the typical local worker, would that be considered proportionately giving back?

If this was used to build housing, perhaps buy goats and other livestock, purchase of tools and basic machinery, things like that, could the aggregate value added by the gringos dollars (say, over a period of 5-10 years before the theoretical and unlikely Collapse) would that be considered earning his keep?

$600 might go a long way for a family every month in a Ejido for sharing housing with one person.

The moon might be a bit of an illustrative exaggeration, but it's salient that people have walked on the moon. There are people who have gone to very different lifestyles with far less expense than the Apollo program. It is jarring, it is a transformation, and failure is as possible as in all things.

If I'm understanding your principle objection, it is that the person would not be contributing significantly? Say they spent $1,000 USD into the community each month, and tutored English to any who wanted. Is that not helpful to them enough to add a community member?

They are in no way going to be able to provide safely $1000 USD a month to the [i]ejido[i]. First of all they won't accept American dollars, he will need to convert the money first of all and there is a hefty price (depending on the federal Mexican state he is presiding in). Not to mention the possibility of the criminality that he will invoke (as gringos are joicy targets for the local cárteles for ransom or worse).

[Uxupox]

Probably not. There is an absence in a circular flow of income here.

Can you explain? Unless there is a Collapse that happened soon, the income would be coming from the US to Mexico, much as it would if a Mexican worker came to the US to work and sent money back. It's just in this case ,the US worker goes to Mexico and pays money earned with American companies for remote work into the Ejido community.

The guy is not a big surplus of income, nor he is a governmental burecraut nor does he have a Mexican license to operate, nor does he know the local government to develop the community. Maybe el jefe will tell him or maybe he will tell him to take a hike. idk. All ejidos are different in regards to this.

[Yagon]

So, if for example the person paid for their food (locally purchased) with money earned by a remote tech job, hired local workers to build things, and brought into the community roughly an order of magnitude more than the typical local worker, would that be considered proportionately giving back?

If this was used to build housing, perhaps buy goats and other livestock, purchase of tools and basic machinery, things like that, could the aggregate value added by the gringos dollars (say, over a period of 5-10 years before the theoretical and unlikely Collapse) would that be considered earning his keep?

$600 might go a long way for a family every month in a Ejido for sharing housing with one person.

The moon might be a bit of an illustrative exaggeration, but it's salient that people have walked on the moon. There are people who have gone to very different lifestyles with far less expense than the Apollo program. It is jarring, it is a transformation, and failure is as possible as in all things.

If I'm understanding your principle objection, it is that the person would not be contributing significantly? Say they spent $1,000 USD into the community each month, and tutored English to any who wanted. Is that not helpful to them enough to add a community member?

They are in no way going to be able to provide safely $1000 USD a month to the [i]ejido[i]. First of all they won't accept American dollars, he will need to convert the money first of all and there is a hefty price (depending on the federal Mexican state he is presiding in). Not to mention the possibility of the criminality that he will invoke (as gringos are joicy targets for the local cárteles for ransom or worse).

Ah, so the issue isn't actually about contributing (since the OP addresses that), but how to access American earnings from Mexico.

There are not towns with banks within some driving distance? As for conversion costs, generally in Mexico most travelers can pull 5,000 pesos a day from a bank ATM at trivial cost and reasonable exchange rate, so couldn't he travel once a month to a bank and get the money?

How do migrant workers in America send money back to the Ejidos?

(Please don't take this as argumentative, I respect that you have more experience with this than I do, and I honestly appreciate your knowledge and input)?

I have lived in Mexico with no difficulties at all accessing American earnings and converting them, but not in an Ejido.

Perhaps I am underestimating the isolation (both geographically and culturally) of the Ejidos?

You mentioned other natives. Would a plan like this be better directed to Mexican agrarians who are not Ejido? A small town that is not an Ejido is still a community, would that be a better choice?

[Yagon]

Can you explain? Unless there is a Collapse that happened soon, the income would be coming from the US to Mexico, much as it would if a Mexican worker came to the US to work and sent money back. It's just in this case ,the US worker goes to Mexico and pays money earned with American companies for remote work into the Ejido community.

The guy is not a big surplus of income, nor he is a governmental burecraut nor does he have a Mexican license to operate, nor does he know the local government to develop the community. Maybe el jefe will tell him or maybe he will tell him to take a hike. idk. All ejidos are different in regards to this.

So it seems instead of approaching the deportee, the better person to ask is the Ejido leader (or leaders, I suppose, depending on the community).

There maybe some that would be more amicable to this than others? I suppose that would involve approaching several them and seeing if there are any takers.

[Uxupox]

They are in no way going to be able to provide safely $1000 USD a month to the [i]ejido[i]. First of all they won't accept American dollars, he will need to convert the money first of all and there is a hefty price (depending on the federal Mexican state he is presiding in). Not to mention the possibility of the criminality that he will invoke (as gringos are joicy targets for the local cárteles for ransom or worse).

Ah, so the issue isn't actually about contributing (since the OP addresses that), but how to access American earnings from Mexico.

There are not towns with banks within some driving distance? As for conversion costs, generally in Mexico most travelers can pull 5,000 pesos a day from a bank ATM at trivial cost and reasonable exchange rate, so couldn't he travel once a month to a bank and get the money?

How do migrant workers in America send money back to the Ejidos?

(Please don't take this as argumentative, I respect that you have more experience with this than I do, and I honestly appreciate your knowledge and input)?

I have lived in Mexico with no difficulties at all accessing American earnings and converting them, but not in an Ejido.

Perhaps I am underestimating the isolation (both geographically and culturally) of the Ejidos?

You mentioned other natives. Would a plan like this be better directed to Mexican agrarians who are not Ejido? A small town that is not an Ejido is still a community, would that be a better choice?

I know a couple of people used Western Union to send money back to their folks at home. Don't know if they used this for the people that live in the ejidos though.

Yea ejidos are pretty damned isolated. If I remember some missionary's travel route took him a few days to get to an ejido community (though this was in the Yucatan area)

The cost would most likely be a lot higher at hiring Mexican agrarians than an ejido community that's for sure.

[Uxupox]

The guy is not a big surplus of income, nor he is a governmental burecraut nor does he have a Mexican license to operate, nor does he know the local government to develop the community. Maybe el jefe will tell him or maybe he will tell him to take a hike. idk. All ejidos are different in regards to this.

So it seems instead of approaching the deportee, the better person to ask is the Ejido leader (or leaders, I suppose, depending on the community).

There maybe some that would be more amicable to this than others? I suppose that would involve approaching several them and seeing if there are any takers.

Definitely. An ejido is a patriarchal community headed by the village chief. While it is kinda a "collective" society, he ultimately makes the decisions at the end.

[Yagon]

Ah, so the issue isn't actually about contributing (since the OP addresses that), but how to access American earnings from Mexico.

There are not towns with banks within some driving distance? As for conversion costs, generally in Mexico most travelers can pull 5,000 pesos a day from a bank ATM at trivial cost and reasonable exchange rate, so couldn't he travel once a month to a bank and get the money?

How do migrant workers in America send money back to the Ejidos?

(Please don't take this as argumentative, I respect that you have more experience with this than I do, and I honestly appreciate your knowledge and input)?

I have lived in Mexico with no difficulties at all accessing American earnings and converting them, but not in an Ejido.

Perhaps I am underestimating the isolation (both geographically and culturally) of the Ejidos?

You mentioned other natives. Would a plan like this be better directed to Mexican agrarians who are not Ejido? A small town that is not an Ejido is still a community, would that be a better choice?

I know a couple of people used Western Union to send money back to their folks at home. Don't know if they used this for the people that live in the ejidos though.

Yea ejidos are pretty damned isolated. If I remember some missionary's travel route took him a few days to get to an ejido community (though this was in the Yucatan area)

The cost would most likely be a lot higher at hiring Mexican agrarians than an ejido community that's for sure.

A lot higher such that $600/month would not be enough to buy housing?

I apologize, I have not visited far from the major cities (although the poverty there is fairly extreme to my American eyes, but then, parts of America are getting there...)

I was told there are places in rural Mexico where the average worker earns about $400 a month, and the poorest sometimes make $5/day if they can work at all.

The cost of living in rural Mexico is higher than in the tourist adjacent areas?

[Yagon]

So it seems instead of approaching the deportee, the better person to ask is the Ejido leader (or leaders, I suppose, depending on the community).

There maybe some that would be more amicable to this than others? I suppose that would involve approaching several them and seeing if there are any takers.

Definitely. An ejido is a patriarchal community headed by the village chief. While it is kinda a "collective" society, he ultimately makes the decisions at the end.

This question will show my ignorance, but I must ask: How many Ejido chieftains will have an email address? Do Ejidos have websites? I don't want to insult them by assuming they are technically illiterate, but as you correctly pointed out, they are in a different world from me.

[Uxupox]

I know a couple of people used Western Union to send money back to their folks at home. Don't know if they used this for the people that live in the ejidos though.

Yea ejidos are pretty damned isolated. If I remember some missionary's travel route took him a few days to get to an ejido community (though this was in the Yucatan area)

The cost would most likely be a lot higher at hiring Mexican agrarians than an ejido community that's for sure.

A lot higher such that $600/month would not be enough to buy housing?

I apologize, I have not visited far from the major cities (although the poverty there is fairly extreme to my American eyes, but then, parts of America are getting there...)

I was told there are places in rural Mexico where the average worker earns about $400 a month, and the poorest sometimes make $5/day if they can work at all.

The cost of living in rural Mexico is higher than in the tourist adjacent areas?

You can build a mudhouse with that tbh. But other than that most likely nothing else or nothing luxurious.

[Yagon]

A lot higher such that $600/month would not be enough to buy housing?

I apologize, I have not visited far from the major cities (although the poverty there is fairly extreme to my American eyes, but then, parts of America are getting there...)

I was told there are places in rural Mexico where the average worker earns about $400 a month, and the poorest sometimes make $5/day if they can work at all.

The cost of living in rural Mexico is higher than in the tourist adjacent areas?

You can build a mudhouse with that tbh. But other than that most likely nothing else or nothing luxurious.

That saddens me greatly. $600/month in rural Mexico would buy you a mudhouse? There are places in the US where you can get an apartment with appliances and air conditioning for $600/month (albeit sucky places).

So, those rural Mexicans must make more than I had incorrectly assumed, I should check more carefully into the incomes of the area. I had thought average Mexican income was something around $12k USD or so, and that with more than that at least basic housing could be achieved in the poor areas.

Depressing.

[Uxupox]

You can build a mudhouse with that tbh. But other than that most likely nothing else or nothing luxurious.

That saddens me greatly. $600/month in rural Mexico would buy you a mudhouse? There are places in the US where you can get an apartment with appliances and air conditioning for $600/month (albeit sucky places).

So, those rural Mexicans must make more than I had incorrectly assumed, I should check more carefully into the incomes of the area. I had thought average Mexican income was something around $12k USD or so, and that with more than that at least basic housing could be achieved in the poor areas.

Depressing.

buying? You can buy something pretty good with that I thought it was about building a house.

[Yagon]

That saddens me greatly. $600/month in rural Mexico would buy you a mudhouse? There are places in the US where you can get an apartment with appliances and air conditioning for $600/month (albeit sucky places).

So, those rural Mexicans must make more than I had incorrectly assumed, I should check more carefully into the incomes of the area. I had thought average Mexican income was something around $12k USD or so, and that with more than that at least basic housing could be achieved in the poor areas.

Depressing.

buying? You can buy something pretty good with that I thought it was about building a house.

I'm sorry, I phrased that poorly, I should have said "get you mudhouse", meaning rent most likely.

The house would be built incrementally if I had permission from the Ejido to build on its land, a cost optimized tiny house prioritizing locally available materials can usually be done with $5,000 USD worth of materials (although materials may cost more there, labor may cost less) and I would hire a full time worker to help me build it if the local prevailing wage for full time work is $400 a month, I can beat that by 20%. I would anticipate about a year to build.

(I've lived in Tiny Houses, it takes getting used to, but I've been happy in them).

[Uxupox]

buying? You can buy something pretty good with that I thought it was about building a house.

I'm sorry, I phrased that poorly, I should have said "get you mudhouse", meaning rent most likely.

The house would be built incrementally if I had permission from the Ejido to build on its land, a cost optimized tiny house prioritizing locally available materials can usually be done with $5,000 USD worth of materials (although materials may cost more there, labor may cost less) and I would hire a full time worker to help me build it if the local prevailing wage for full time work is $400 a month, I can beat that by 20%. I would anticipate about a year to build.

(I've lived in Tiny Houses, it takes getting used to, but I've been happy in them).

Then hell yes you can build a good house with that kind of income in an ejido (in comparison to other houses in the area anyway).