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by Liberimery » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:50 am
by The New California Republic » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:54 am
Dawn Kingdom wrote:b) Manipulating and urging citizens to be more religious will be prohibited.
Dawn Kingdom wrote:a) Religious representatives cannot publicly mock government's actions without good reason and argumentation.
Dawn Kingdom wrote:b) Collecting money from citizens in religious means will be prohibited.
Dawn Kingdom wrote:e) Goverment will manage church's funds and expenses, by that faith will be solely dependent of the goverment.
Dawn Kingdom wrote:b) Goverment must start annual cheching of families to determine their loyalty to the nation.
by Dawn Kingdom » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:56 am
by The New California Republic » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:09 am
Dawn Kingdom wrote:Banning missionary work is not same as banning the religion itself.
Dawn Kingdom wrote:Separate church and state is out
Dawn Kingdom wrote:but main point of this proposal is weakening faith authority, not outlawing it.
Dawn Kingdom wrote:Yes oppressive shit still remains
Dawn Kingdom wrote:it doesn't counter any of the previous legislations do you can't label it as "illegal" just because you don't like it.
by Barunia » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:22 am
Kenmoria wrote:Barunia wrote:
Changing the title does nothing. This is still illegal for an ideological ban as it prevents theocracies. Several members of the secrtariat and a game mod have told you this. It doesn't matter how many times you change the wording, the underlying premise behind this resolution (that religous organisations should not be involved in government) is not compatible with the idea of theocracy. Therefore, if this were to pass, it would effectively ban theocracies, and is therefore illegal. What part of this are you not understanding?
(OOC: After the new draft was posted in the OP, I’m not sure this criticism still applies. Although the draft has lots of things to restrict traditionally theocratic activities and legislature, it does not prohibit a theocracy in its current form. The closest it gets is 1b or 2a, but those don’t directly outlaw a government in which priests rule in the name of God(s), just ban the activities typical of them. I suppose one could argue that 2b restricts a theocratic government from ever having taxation, but that isn’t by itself an ideological ban. There are still major issues with the draft though, and I’m fairly certain it’s still illegal.)
The World Assembly,
Many nations have a zealous population. Places of worship are spreading their influence throughtout the nation, while polluting nation's firm standards and enacting crazy and zealous, unfair ideas.
b) Manipulating and urging citizens to be more religious will be prohibited.
2.) New firm legislations must be passed in places of worship.
a) Religious representatives cannot publicly mock government's actions without good reason and argumentation.
b) Collecting money from citizens in religious means will be prohibited.
e) Goverment will manage church's funds and expenses, by that faith will be solely dependent of the goverment.
b) Goverment must start annual cheching of families to determine their loyalty to the nation.
by Dawn Kingdom » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:45 am
by Barunia » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:54 am
Dawn Kingdom wrote:Religious people aren't prohibited from protesting. If they have some arguments then their protests are most welcome, but "god wills it" is considered as an argument.
Annual checking will take part in reducing faith authority. If needs be and religion takes arms against the government citizens loyalty toward the government must be absolute, without question...
I hope I answered your questions.
by Dawn Kingdom » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:58 am
by The New California Republic » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:03 am
Dawn Kingdom wrote:Religious people aren't prohibited from protesting. If they have some arguments then their protests are most welcome, but "god wills it" is considered as an argument.
Dawn Kingdom wrote:Annual checking will take part in reducing faith authority.
Dawn Kingdom wrote:If needs be and religion takes arms against the government citizens loyalty toward the government must be absolute, without question
by The New California Republic » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:09 am
Dawn Kingdom wrote:It does violate Freedom of Religion, I do admit it. But Weaken Faith Authority isn't a proposal yet.
Dawn Kingdom wrote:"Not everyone is authoritarian". Not everyone is liberal either.
by Barunia » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:17 am
Dawn Kingdom wrote:It does violate Freedom of Religion, I do admit it. But Weaken Faith Authority isn't a proposal yet.
If you want to have possible rebellions in your country, then I hope you will.
"Not everyone is authoritarian". Not everyone is liberal either.
by Dawn Kingdom » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:21 am
The New California Republic wrote: It is still limiting the freedom of speech of an entire swath of the population...
The New California Republic wrote: But...how though? You are being incredibly vague about this "annual checks of loyalty" thing. It makes me suspect that there is something either really sinister about it, or you just haven't thought this idea through...
The New California Republic wrote: Who is talking about taking up arms against the government? Ironically, if anything, the Orwellian measures in your proposal would lead many to take up arms against the government. Your proposal is so unbelievably self-defeating...
by Dawn Kingdom » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:23 am
Barunia wrote:Dawn Kingdom wrote:It does violate Freedom of Religion, I do admit it. But Weaken Faith Authority isn't a proposal yet.
If you want to have possible rebellions in your country, then I hope you will.
"Not everyone is authoritarian". Not everyone is liberal either.
But you have to consider all nations when writing a WA proposal, lest you create an ideological ban. This IS a proposal by the way, otherwise what is it?
by The New California Republic » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:27 am
Dawn Kingdom wrote:The New California Republic wrote: But...how though? You are being incredibly vague about this "annual checks of loyalty" thing. It makes me suspect that there is something either really sinister about it, or you just haven't thought this idea through...
Police and representatives of the government will question citizens determining where their loyalties are.
Dawn Kingdom wrote:The New California Republic wrote: Who is talking about taking up arms against the government? Ironically, if anything, the Orwellian measures in your proposal would lead many to take up arms against the government. Your proposal is so unbelievably self-defeating...
It is just for safety measures, why risk having rebellions only to avoid 30-40 minutes of annual checking for each family.
by Aureumterra » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:30 am
The New California Republic wrote:Dawn Kingdom wrote:It is just demanding to have argumentations while making a protest.
Nope. It is much more than that. It is setting conditions for free speech, conditions that are not imposed on the rest of the population. It is unbelievably discriminatory.Dawn Kingdom wrote:
Police and representatives of the government will question citizens determining where their loyalties are.
Oh joy. And dare I ask how this will take place? And where? And who for that matter? The intent here seems to be to question all citizens. Does that include children? Babies? People in comas? Citizens that are out of the country?Dawn Kingdom wrote:
It is just for safety measures, why risk having rebellions only to avoid 30-40 minutes of annual checking for each family.
Do you seriously believe that such checks would stop a rebellion? I have news for you: people can lie. They can lie during the interviews.
by Kenmoria » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:46 am
Dawn Kingdom wrote:The World Assembly,
Many nations have a zealous population. Places of worship are spreading their influence throughtout the nation, while polluting nation's firm standards and enacting crazy and zealous, unfair ideas. This does not read like a law, this section should be much more similar to a piece of legislation than a blog or commentary.
Hereby,
1.) Influence of religious representatives must be decreased.
a) Religious authorities will be prohibited to spread hate towards minorities and social groups in the name of the faith. That is already covered by prior legislation.
b) Manipulating and urging citizens to be more religious will be prohibited. You have now banned: missionary work, all sermons, choir singing and essentially all preaching.
2.) New firm legislations must be passed in places of worship.
a) Religious representatives cannot publicly mock government's actions without good reason and argumentation. No.
b) Collecting money from citizens in religious means will be prohibited. Theocratic governments are now banned from raising tax. Also, churches, synagogues, temples and mosques will become extinct due to a lack of ways to make any money whatsoever.
e) Goverment will manage church's funds and expenses, by that faith will be solely dependent of the goverment. Why just churches? Surely non-Christians also deserve to lack the separation of church and state‽ Also, why is this clause e and not clause c, as the alphabet traditionally works?
3.) Using police force
a) If policeman/policewoman is bribed by faith representative, he/she will be immediately relieved from his/her duties.
b) Goverment must start annual cheching of families to determine their loyalty to the nation. No. Absolutely not. There is no way this is entering into the final draft. Remove it immediately.
Category - Political Stability
Strenght - Mild I believe this should be at least significant, maybe strong.
by Dawn Kingdom » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:46 am
Aureumterra wrote: You know, I have given up with this thread, the OP will learn the lesson when it inevitably gets defeated if by some miracle reaches the delegate approval quorum
by The New California Republic » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:48 am
by Dawn Kingdom » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:50 am
Kenmoria wrote:“Now that I have analysed the grammar and formatting of the proposal, I will attack the content instead. Comments are in this colour.”Dawn Kingdom wrote:The World Assembly,
Many nations have a zealous population. Places of worship are spreading their influence throughtout the nation, while polluting nation's firm standards and enacting crazy and zealous, unfair ideas. This does not read like a law, this section should be much more similar to a piece of legislation than a blog or commentary.
Hereby,
1.) Influence of religious representatives must be decreased.
a) Religious authorities will be prohibited to spread hate towards minorities and social groups in the name of the faith. That is already covered by prior legislation.
b) Manipulating and urging citizens to be more religious will be prohibited. You have now banned: missionary work, all sermons, choir singing and essentially all preaching.
2.) New firm legislations must be passed in places of worship.
a) Religious representatives cannot publicly mock government's actions without good reason and argumentation. No.
b) Collecting money from citizens in religious means will be prohibited. Theocratic governments are now banned from raising tax. Also, churches, synagogues, temples and mosques will become extinct due to a lack of ways to make any money whatsoever.
e) Goverment will manage church's funds and expenses, by that faith will be solely dependent of the goverment. Why just churches? Surely non-Christians also deserve to lack the separation of church and state‽ Also, why is this clause e and not clause c, as the alphabet traditionally works?
3.) Using police force
a) If policeman/policewoman is bribed by faith representative, he/she will be immediately relieved from his/her duties.
b) Goverment must start annual cheching of families to determine their loyalty to the nation. No. Absolutely not. There is no way this is entering into the final draft. Remove it immediately.
Category - Political Stability
Strenght - Mild I believe this should be at least significant, maybe strong.
by Kenmoria » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:56 am
Dawn Kingdom wrote:Kenmoria wrote:“Now that I have analysed the grammar and formatting of the proposal, I will attack the content instead. Comments are in this colour.”
Thank you for showing my mistake. You could be little less rash, but that's beside the point. At least some kind of help from the forum. Also don't use termin separate church and state. Use Weaken Faith Authority (WFA is you are tired of typing)
by The New California Republic » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:56 am
Dawn Kingdom wrote:You could be little less rash, but that's beside the point.
Dawn Kingdom wrote:You won't be missed.
Dawn Kingdom wrote:At least some kind of help from the forum.
by Dawn Kingdom » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:00 am
by Grays Harbor » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:24 am
Dawn Kingdom wrote:Well I am sometimes rude and impulsive too. I am sorry if I have offended someone directly/personally. Telling that he is the only one who helps was ungrateful from my side cause I have fixed several issues with your help.
by The New California Republic » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:26 am
Grays Harbor wrote:Dawn Kingdom wrote:Well I am sometimes rude and impulsive too. I am sorry if I have offended someone directly/personally. Telling that he is the only one who helps was ungrateful from my side cause I have fixed several issues with your help.
Fixed? What has been “fixed”? All I have seen is for this to become increasingly more fascist and oppressive. There is literally nothing, not one thing, about this train wreck that is redeemable, let alone even marginally acceptable to any reasonable nation. Annual loyalty checks on the population by police? Bans on donations? Government running churches? Any religious people being 2nd class citizens and automatically suspect for their “loyalty”. Why in the hell would anybody be “loyal” to such an oppressive regime in the first place.
“Oh, why are you just criticizing and not helping fix it?”
Because there is nothing fixable. This whole thing is junk. It is gross government overreach. It is worse than authoritarian, it is spitefull and egregious oppression, and singles out one group, religion, for massive discrimination and repression. Forceful repression. The only thing it is missing is mandatory re-education camps.
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