Are "Democratic Socialists" 'zactly socialists?

[Wallenburg]

The entire defense budget is between $600-700 Billion as of the current moment. Now compare that to the aforementioned UHC of $2.5 Trillion. You can run on increasing the defense budget by x billions while rightfully pointing out a UHC is utterly impossible.

Hey guys! This handgun cost me $350, but my rent costs me a whopping $9600 every year. It's just utterly impossible to afford a place to live!

[Oil exporting People]

The entire defense budget is between $600-700 Billion as of the current moment. Now compare that to the aforementioned UHC of $2.5 Trillion. You can run on increasing the defense budget by x billions while rightfully pointing out a UHC is utterly impossible.

Hey guys! This handgun cost me $350, but my rent costs me a whopping $9600 every year. It's just utterly impossible to afford a place to live!

If you're yearly income is only $9599 or under, it is. This is called basic addition and subtraction.

[New Wrepland]

They are not Socialists, just uneducated people that have a list of wants without the slightest clue of how to pay for them.

Just like most Republicans.

[Oil exporting People]

They are not Socialists, just uneducated people that have a list of wants without the slightest clue of how to pay for them.

Just like most Republicans.

I'm presuming this is meant to somehow be a rejoinder despite being a textbook example of Tu quoque?

[New Wrepland]

Just like most Republicans.

I'm presuming this is meant to somehow be a rejoinder despite being a textbook example of Tu quoque?

No it's BS but it's also true though.

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

Also note that there are no true democracy's in the world. Basically the OP sounds like he had an "aha I got you ya damn fakers!" moment. Democratic socialism is not socialism for starters. It is not meant to be. Every country with a democratic socialist party or ideology is quite probably completely different. Deal with it. In the US the idea of taxing the ultra rich at the same percentage as the working class to pay for healthcare is considered as bad as murdering puppies and kittens so is it a surprise that our system makes "socialism lite" seem edgy?

[Telconi]

Also note that there are no true democracy's in the world. Basically the OP sounds like he had an "aha I got you ya damn fakers!" moment. Democratic socialism is not socialism for starters. It is not meant to be. Every country with a democratic socialist party or ideology is quite probably completely different. Deal with it. In the US the idea of taxing the ultra rich at the same percentage as the working class to pay for healthcare is considered as bad as murdering puppies and kittens so is it a surprise that our system makes "socialism lite" seem edgy?

>Same percentage as the working class

Ohboyherewego...

[Forsher]

Having different methods does not imply having different goals.

In politics, how to do something is very much a goal too. Being seen to being doing something is just as, often more valuable, than actually doing something.

To the OP... I find the whole business of labelling political ideologies wearisome and unhelpful. I've been on this site for, what, six years now and not once felt the poorer for having never bothered to understand what Johnny means by one term when, after all, finding another dozen definitions of the same idea is no more difficult than finding another dozen people. What matters, in all cases, is whether or not we can properly identify what someone thinks about some specific proposition... although, sadly, people like to obfuscate this too.

And to the extent that knowing the labels is useful, what would be more useful is knowing the underlying principles that determine someone's label. In that case I have 1500 words on the other laptop about why that's actually also useless, if anyone cares just say the word.

tl;dr -- the actual meaning of the label is less interesting and useful than the application of the labels... they're synthetic CDOs as explained in The Big Short

[Tobleste]

I think Socialism in the US is a term that is used very differently. Initially I thought that it was similar to the word liberal in that it's meaning was slightly different but it seems that the word is just insanely overused. For example, a leading conservative writer went insane about Elizabeth Warren's idea and called it socialist, despite not even understanding it. It seems that in America, "socialist" is favouring workers and the poor over company owners and the wealthy. This rationalises their belief that, to protect liberty, the law must favour the wealthy and anything that prevents that (e.g. unions) must be destroyed.

This article explains the weird thought process they have about Warren's idea:

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/08/ ... ights-plan

If you want to know why so many millennials are socialists, this offers a useful clue: because so many people on the right have come to define “capitalism” as “any set of rules that rich people like.” Shackford even puts the word “stakeholders” in quotes, as if it’s lefty lunacy to suggest that employees suffer meaningful consequences from decisions made by management, and therefore deserve to have their interests considered. This is how radical parts of the right have become: the very idea that a company should care about its workers as well as its profits, or give them a say in management decisions, is treated as a socialistic threat to the American way of life. No wonder that many people who see Warren’s proposal will say: “If that’s socialism, I guess I’m a socialist.”

It just shows how much the right in America has become untethered from reality.

[Oil exporting People]

I'm presuming this is meant to somehow be a rejoinder despite being a textbook example of Tu quoque?

No it's BS but it's also true though.

Fair enough.

[Hammer Britannia]

Short Answer: No
Long Answer: Definitely No
Longest Answer: Only if you ask Fox News.

[The Official United Nations]

If you mean Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez, then you're correct that they are simply supporting a different mode of capitalism. Though there is some hype around their 'socialism,' like most hype it is misleading.

Even 'democratic socialism' usually denotes something more radical than Sanders, but still not always communist in orientation. However, the Sanders variant of it is not necessarily radicalism.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Simple answer: NO

The definition of socialism is state or community ownership of the means of production. So-called "democratic socialists" still support a free market, however they also support a welfare state to provide for lower-income people's basic needs and thus grant them increased economic opportunities

[Nekokuni]

The idea that socialists have only ever immediately strove for nationalization of the means of production is historically inaccurate. A lot of socialists strove for humaner work conditions such as the Eight-hour work day. Not because they didn't want to eventually bring about worker ownership over the means of production, but because the proletariat have needs in the here and now, and not just whenever the revolution happens (which hasn't been yet). Considering that Bernie Sanders has had a long history of membership in socialist organizations, I don't think it's right to dismiss him as a social democrat just because he isn't calling for socialism right now.

[Chestaan]

Its tough to know whether Bernie and those like him are actually not socialists or if they are just trying to convey an image of being "not-socialist" in order to court more moderate voters. A lot of their rhetoric is very much of the social democrat line of thinking and is actually very safe and moderate, but that may just be a tactic rather than a change of their beliefs.

In any case socialists attempting to run for the Democrats is doomed to failure in my opinion. If Bernie really is a socialist then he needs to grow a fucking spine, break from the Democrats and stop supporting horrible people like Clinton. Running in the Democratic primary may have been a good PR exercise but supporting Hillary was not only the exact opposite of what any socialist would have done, but it's highly immoral given her stance on war, Wall Street and her previous comments supporting "traditional marriage".

[Parti Ouvrier]

Its tough to know whether Bernie and those like him are actually not socialists or if they are just trying to convey an image of being "not-socialist" in order to court more moderate voters. A lot of their rhetoric is very much of the social democrat line of thinking and is actually very safe and moderate, but that may just be a tactic rather than a change of their beliefs.

In any case socialists attempting to run for the Democrats is doomed to failure in my opinion. If Bernie really is a socialist then he needs to grow a fucking spine, break from the Democrats and stop supporting horrible people like Clinton. Running in the Democratic primary may have been a good PR exercise but supporting Hillary was not only the exact opposite of what any socialist would have done, but it's highly immoral given her stance on war, Wall Street and her previous comments supporting "traditional marriage".

Socialism is also more than a single personality running for president (a Bonapartist position). No, it's much better to also run a candidate that calls for the abolition of president/Senate (2020), strengthening the powers of Congress and running candidates in Congress (2018), for example.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

The idea that socialists have only ever immediately strove for nationalization of the means of production is historically inaccurate. A lot of socialists strove for humaner work conditions such as the Eight-hour work day. Not because they didn't want to eventually bring about worker ownership over the means of production, but because the proletariat have needs in the here and now, and not just whenever the revolution happens (which hasn't been yet). Considering that Bernie Sanders has had a long history of membership in socialist organizations, I don't think it's right to dismiss him as a social democrat just because he isn't calling for socialism right now.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/socialism

[New Wrepland]

I see democratic socialism as more of an ideology and social democracy as its vehicle. Social democracy is the compromise between labor and capital which according to different people is either the achievement of democratic socialism's goals (or the in-between period before socialism. This is how most social democratic parties self-define it, from what I've read and understood. Interestingly, in a farcical way, Tony Blair's revision of the Labour Party charter emphasized the term 'democratic socialism' while deleting the article actually calling for seizing the means of production.

The SPD wrote this in their 2007 Program:

In our understanding democratic socialism remains the vision of a free and fair society in solidarity. Its realization is a permanent task for us. The principle for our actions is social democracy.

[Greed and Death]

Socialist enough that suspension of Democracy is called for to stop them.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

The core of this is "who invented the word socialist?"

Until we answer that we have nothing.

[Luziyca]

It depends on the definition of socialism, since what may be a socialist to one guy can very well be a neoliberal to another.

[Saiwania]

I would place Democratic Socialists to the right of actual Socialists, but to the left of Social Democrats.

Socialists want an economic system like the Soviet Union had, but Democratic Socialists want to allow some capitalism but heavy state intervention in the economy. Whilst Social Democrats are the Bernie Sanders types that want to follow a Scandinavian model for the national economy.

[Orostan]

The core of this is "who invented the word socialist?"

Until we answer that we have nothing.

Marx, for the modern term.

[MERIZoC]

no

[Risottia]

Especially for any "democratic socialists" or "social democrats" out there, is there a difference? What exactly is it?

Do your own homework.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy