by Trithereon » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:20 am
by Trotterdam » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:57 am
According to your signature:Trithereon wrote:What authoritarianism is NOT:
- government protecting the life, liberty, and property of its citizens (example: banning neonatal genital mutilation)
So which is it?Trithereon wrote:the CORRECT way to handle authoritarianism: it should decrease every time government stays out of something, regardless of what individuals do to each other.
The government's insistence on keeping public property public (and thus under its control) rather than privatizing it is authoritarian, according to your own definition:Trithereon wrote:- government making rules about the legitimate use of public property (example: arresting people when they block public roads as a form of protest)
Trithereon wrote:Authoritarianism IS:
- government interference in the economy, either through regulations or through taxes and spending
by Ratateague » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:51 pm
Trithereon wrote:This is a thread for discussing stats that, in general, don't behave anything like they should, due to either design flaws in the stat engine itself or ignorance by issue editors about what words mean. As an example, there is currently a major disconnect between how the game calculates life expectancy and how it calculates leading causes of death.
Okay, let's start with some dictionary definitions of what authoritarianism is.Trithereon wrote:As my signature hints, I tend to notice this most often with authoritarianism. So, let's talk about what authoritarianism is and what it isn't.
dictionary wrote:1. the enforcement or advocacy of strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom.
2. lack of concern for the wishes or opinions of others.
Dictionary.com wrote:1. of or relating to a governmental or political system, principle, or practice in which individual freedom is held as completely subordinate to the power or authority of the state, centered either in one person or a small group that is not constitutionally accountable to the people.
2. favoring complete obedience or subjection to authority as opposed to individual freedom.
I would post the Wikipedia definitions, but there are many, and they would just run on and on and I'm trying to keep this brief.Encyclopaedia Brittanica wrote:Authoritarianism, principle of blind submission to authority, as opposed to individual freedom of thought and action. In government, authoritarianism denotes any political system that concentrates power in the hands of a leader or a small elite that is not constitutionally responsible to the body of the people.
That's a very shaky definition. "Interference" is open to wide, subjective, personal interpretation.Trithereon wrote:Authoritarianism IS:
- government interference in the private lives of citizens
No, that's Economic Freedom and Freedom From Taxation, which indicates those with reductions and negative values.Trithereon wrote:- government interference in the economy, either through regulations or through taxes and spending
Actually, it is.Trithereon wrote:What authoritarianism is NOT:
- autocracy
dictionary wrote:Autocracy
n. Government by a single person having unlimited power; despotism.
n. A country or state that is governed by a single person with unlimited power.
Dictionary.com wrote:1. government in which one person has uncontrolled or unlimited authority over others; the government or power of an absolute monarch.
2. unlimited authority, power, or influence of one person in any group.
Note the connection to the previous definitions.Wikipedia wrote:An autocracy is a system of government in which supreme power (social and political) is concentrated in the hands of one person, whose decisions are subject to neither external legal restraints nor regularized mechanisms of popular control
I won't pretend to know exactly what NS considers to be an authoritarian act or how they calculate its impacts, and I've been here quite a few years. But you better believe the staff behind the scenes review these stats and issues and give them the scrutiny and debate they deserve. They're not perfect, but a hell of a lot better than the mob of new players that consistently come along, challenging everything without taking the time to familiarize themselves with the issues and mechanics, proclaiming to be the authority on such matters, then disappearing.Trithereon wrote:- government holding its own employees to a certain code of conduct
- government protecting the life, liberty, and property of its citizens (example: banning neonatal genital mutilation)
- citizens defending their own life, liberty, and property against trespassers, squatters, illegal immigrants, etc. by whatever means they deem appropriate
- government making rules about the legitimate use of public property (example: arresting people when they block public roads as a form of protest)
by Trithereon » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:02 pm
Trotterdam wrote:So which is it?
The government's insistence on keeping public property public (and thus under its control) rather than privatizing it is authoritarian, according to your own definition
by Trotterdam » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:23 pm
Yes, they are.Trithereon wrote:Both. The two statements are not mutually exclusive.
by Ratateague » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:26 pm
Trithereon wrote:Almost everything else you said was either wrong, or based on a faulty assumption. In particular, my own conversations with certain powers-that-be demonstrated that they don't put even 1/10th as much thought into these stats as they want everyone to think.
by Trithereon » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:09 am
by Trithereon » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:16 am
Ratateague wrote:Says the guy that wasn't even here long enough to witness the rejiggering of the Authoritarianism stat, after dozens of minor stat changes and major overhauls.
i've gone through these conversations you've claimed to have had, and in nearly every instance, someone has given you a reasonable explanation why the effect turned out that way
by Post War America » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:30 am
Trithereon wrote:This is a thread for discussing stats that, in general, don't behave anything like they should, due to either design flaws in the stat engine itself or ignorance by issue editors about what words mean. As an example, there is currently a major disconnect between how the game calculates life expectancy and how it calculates leading causes of death.
As my signature hints, I tend to notice this most often with authoritarianism. So, let's talk about what authoritarianism is and what it isn't.
Authoritarianism IS:
- government interference in the private lives of citizens
- government interference in the economy, either through regulations or through taxes and spending
What authoritarianism is NOT:
- the absence of democracy
- citizens defending their own life, liberty, and property against trespassers, squatters, illegal immigrants, etc. by whatever means they deem appropriate
- government making rules about the legitimate use of public property (example: arresting people when they block public roads as a form of protest)
What else is there?
Gravlen wrote:The famous Bowling Green Massacre is yesterday's news. Today it's all about the Cricket Blue Carnage. Tomorrow it'll be about the Curling Yellow Annihilation.
by Trotterdam » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:38 am
I guess your signature might be meant to say that authoritarianism should decrease when the government stays out of something, but the government interfering rather than staying out might decrease authoritarianism even more? That is technically logically consistent with what you have said, but it is also a really stupid way of interpreting those words.
by Trithereon » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:03 am
Post War America wrote:Ah, yet another thready started by an Ancap
Mhm, do go on about any interference in the economy automatically makes a state authoritarian. Anyway, we do have another metric for economic regulations, its called economic freedom, it goes up when taxes are cut and the economy falls out of state control, it goes down when the opposite happens. You have that metric, don't try and force all stats to revolve around a ridiculous ancap version of reality.
Those are exactly what authoritarianism is. Cracking down on the rights of citizens, especially to protest is a sign of authoritarianism.
State sanctioned murder of people to protect the property interests of the elite
Additionally, it is worth noting that you have already posited that state interference in the economy is authoritarianism, therefore government ownership of property is authoritarianism. As a result the state even owning public property is authoritarianism.
by Jakker » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:31 am
Trithereon wrote:Ah, yet another idiot who can't tell the difference between players' real-life political views and what they RP their nation as. Would your brain hurt less if I got on a different nation, like the one that's sacrificing all other stats on the altar of Weather?
The Bruce wrote:Mostly I feel sorry for [raiders], because they put in all this effort and at the end of the day have nothing to show for it and have created nothing.
by Trotterdam » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:54 am
I already get it. You are incorrect.Trithereon wrote:Keep trying, Trot. You'll get it eventually.
by Darnassus » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:00 am
by Trotterdam » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:30 am
It does when Y is a one-dimensional metric whose entire purpose is to measure to what degree X and things like X are happening. If you can lower Authoritarianism both by legalizing something and then by illegalizing the same thing, that would be easily abusable by just legalizing and illegalizing it over and over. Repealing a law should put your stats back to where they were before you passed the law in the first place (assuming no other law changes in the meantime). So yes, if enacting a particular policy should move Authoritarianism in a particular direction, then enacting the opposite policy should move Authoritarianism in the opposite direction. (Noting that "opposite policy" in this case means the exact logical inverse, so the opposite of "X is illegal" is "X is legal", not "X is mandatory". Both making something mandatory and making it illegal - or worded differently, both making it illegal to do a thing and making it illegal to not do the thing - are more authoritarian that giving people free choice in whether to do it or not.)Darnassus wrote:Trot: I'll give you a hint. "If X, then Y" does not imply "if the opposite of X, then the opposite of Y"
by Trithereon » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:59 am
Trotterdam wrote: If you can lower Authoritarianism both by legalizing something and then by illegalizing the same thing, that would be easily abusable by just legalizing and illegalizing it over and over.
by Pencil Sharpeners 2 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:16 am
Trithereon wrote:Trotterdam wrote: If you can lower Authoritarianism both by legalizing something and then by illegalizing the same thing, that would be easily abusable by just legalizing and illegalizing it over and over.
This is a thing that you can already do in NS for a wide variety of stats. It's how some countries have over 4,000 weather.
by Trithereon » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:14 pm
by Trithereon » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:21 pm
by Trotterdam » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:26 pm
This is incorrect.Trithereon wrote:Nope, weather is 100% independent of any other stats. The only other stat with this property is culture.
Advertisement
Users browsing this forum: Giovanniland, Khantin, Kractero
Advertisement