I see you've added to your sig.
Eh, it doesn't really bother me, tbh. As long as it has no effect on me, I'm gravy.
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by Cappuccina » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:05 pm
by The South Falls » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:06 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:The Parkus Empire wrote:If you're talking about tribunes, I can get behind that. If you're talking about Caesar, I can't.
I think the second chamber should be sortition based, it would not be able to propose legislation, merely approve or veto it when it is proposed by the first chamber. It serves as a check on the political class.
by Ostroeuropa » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:09 pm
The South Falls wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:
I think the second chamber should be sortition based, it would not be able to propose legislation, merely approve or veto it when it is proposed by the first chamber. It serves as a check on the political class.
Lemme understand this. You're saying that the *still-elected* second class would only be able to approve or veto? What is the difference in first-and-second? Forgive my ignorance, I need to know.
by Ostroeuropa » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:13 pm
by Dumb Ideologies » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:20 pm
by Jelmatt » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:30 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:Jelmatt wrote:
Listing features of authoritarianism doesn't prove that social progressives exhibit them.
Well, looking at feminism, it appears that the movement is definitively anti-pluralism and seeks to claim that you're either a feminist or anti-equality, and anti-equality is not legitimate. This also impacts the minimal social mobilization part (A small minority of the population locking down institutional control and denying others access while also suppressing and breaking up groups that aren't part of the movement), and much of the legitimacy is based in emotion rather than facts (Indeed, the core claim of the movement that women are oppressed and disadvantaged relative to men in the modern day are based on subjective emotional claims).
Social progressives on issues of race very often fulfill these criteria too so far as I can see.
Can you show how it's pluralist and so on?
Ostroeuropa wrote:The Parkus Empire wrote:If you're talking about tribunes, I can get behind that. If you're talking about Caesar, I can't.
I think the second chamber should be sortition based, it would not be able to propose legislation, merely approve or veto it when it is proposed by the first chamber. It serves as a check on the political class.
by Torrocca » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:23 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:(Image)
Hmm... "Fascism isn't left wing tho."
(Also, i'm assuming "Pro-Islam" is more a case of being against intervention in the middle east, and perhaps dogwhistling anti-israel stances.)
Pretty funny that the remnants of the fascist movement in the UK are further left than the status quo on foreign policy, and more radically left on economics than Labour.
by Ostroeuropa » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:37 pm
Torrocca wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:(Image)
Hmm... "Fascism isn't left wing tho."
(Also, i'm assuming "Pro-Islam" is more a case of being against intervention in the middle east, and perhaps dogwhistling anti-israel stances.)
Pretty funny that the remnants of the fascist movement in the UK are further left than the status quo on foreign policy, and more radically left on economics than Labour.
National-Syndicalism isn't leftist :^)
by Torrocca » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:38 pm
by Cappuccina » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:39 pm
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Cappuccina wrote:I see you've added to your sig.
Eh, it doesn't really bother me, tbh. As long as it has no effect on me, I'm gravy.
First they came for the easily triggered liberals, and I did not speak out because I was not an easily triggered liberal
When they came for my gravy there was no-one to speak out for me
Because they'd disposed of all the juice
I think that's how it goes.
by Ostroeuropa » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:41 pm
by Torrocca » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:45 pm
As for pretending, that's a pretty ridiculous thing to believe given that they're explicitly Mosleyite if you know much about him and his policies and history.
The nazi movement was socialist in nature, but once in power a number of the socialist agendas (though not all of them) were abandoned by the politician nazis to attain the cooperation of the establishment with genocide. It's like arguing progressivism is neoliberal capitalism because Democrats keep selling out.
by Ostroeuropa » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:50 pm
Torrocca wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:
What little spin?
The pro-EU one.As for pretending, that's a pretty ridiculous thing to believe given that they're explicitly Mosleyite if you know much about him and his policies and history.
Sure, but that doesn't mean they can't be lying about being syndicalist or what-have-you.The nazi movement was socialist in nature, but once in power a number of the socialist agendas (though not all of them) were abandoned by the politician nazis to attain the cooperation of the establishment with genocide. It's like arguing progressivism is neoliberal capitalism because Democrats keep selling out.
The Nazi movement wasn't that Socialist and was pretty much only Socialist in name once Strasser & Co. got Long Knives'd.
It's kinda funny, actually; these movements popping up with Nationalism and an added leftist word (Syndicalism, Socialism), that turn out to completely ignore those leftist-halves of what they say they've got going on to go full Nationalist. It'd almost be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic in regards to what happened/happens.
by Torrocca » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:53 pm
AOstroeuropa wrote:Torrocca wrote:
The pro-EU one.
Sure, but that doesn't mean they can't be lying about being syndicalist or what-have-you.
The Nazi movement wasn't that Socialist and was pretty much only Socialist in name once Strasser & Co. got Long Knives'd.
It's kinda funny, actually; these movements popping up with Nationalism and an added leftist word (Syndicalism, Socialism), that turn out to completely ignore those leftist-halves of what they say they've got going on to go full Nationalist. It'd almost be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic in regards to what happened/happens.
1. You think... Mosleyites... are engaging in "Spin" by claiming to be pro-Eu...
You don't actually know what you're talking about, do you? Well, at the risk of wasting my time again, here, let me try for the final time to educate you;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrBbN0vvGLA
2. Why would they lie about it? It's not exactly a well known movement, and they aren't an active political group, they don't lobby and they don't push for things. It's just a club for like minded persons.
3. Right, long knives is the moment that changed the government, but the movement was pretty much always socialist.
by Ostroeuropa » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:55 pm
Torrocca wrote:AOstroeuropa wrote:
1. You think... Mosleyites... are engaging in "Spin" by claiming to be pro-Eu...
You don't actually know what you're talking about, do you? Well, at the risk of wasting my time again, here, let me try for the final time to educate you;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrBbN0vvGLA
No, what I'm saying is that the pro-EU thing makes them seem dishonest about the supposed leftism. I know Mosleyites and the like wanted a European superstate of some kind.2. Why would they lie about it? It's not exactly a well known movement, and they aren't an active political group, they don't lobby and they don't push for things. It's just a club for like minded persons.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Like I said, they could be wanting to draw in leftists who don't know what Oswald Mosley was all about and the like.3. Right, long knives is the moment that changed the government, but the movement was pretty much always socialist.
Until Long Knives, when it explicitly became... not socialist.
by Torrocca » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:59 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:Torrocca wrote:A
No, what I'm saying is that the pro-EU thing makes them seem dishonest about the supposed leftism. I know Mosleyites and the like wanted a European superstate of some kind.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Like I said, they could be wanting to draw in leftists who don't know what Oswald Mosley was all about and the like.
Until Long Knives, when it explicitly became... not socialist.
1. Why does being pro-EU make their leftism seem dishonest?
2. So basically your baseless assertions and no actual evidence. "They aren't left wing." "Why?" "Cos I don't wanna admit they are." Mosley was also left wing, so Idk what you're talking about here.
3. The government /=/ the movement and ideology.
by Ostroeuropa » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:02 pm
Torrocca wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:
1. Why does being pro-EU make their leftism seem dishonest?
The EU is basically a Neoliberal continental organization lmao, that's why.2. So basically your baseless assertions and no actual evidence. "They aren't left wing." "Why?" "Cos I don't wanna admit they are." Mosley was also left wing, so Idk what you're talking about here.
I don't trust anyone that calls themselves Fascist and Leftist in the same breath.3. The government /=/ the movement and ideology.
Sure, but the movement and ideology also became not socialist with that same thing.
by Torrocca » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:06 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:Torrocca wrote:
The EU is basically a Neoliberal continental organization lmao, that's why.
I don't trust anyone that calls themselves Fascist and Leftist in the same breath.
Sure, but the movement and ideology also became not socialist with that same thing.
1. Only in as much as any other countries government is, but that doesn't mean supporting a nations existence means supporting neoliberalism. The EU could move left, if leftists were elected to its parliament.
2. Like I said; "They aren't left wing." "Why?" "Cos I don't wanna admit they are."
by Cekoviu » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:33 pm
The Parkus Empire wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:
I've become ambivalent about liberal essentialism. Where it's needed, authoritarianism seems fine to me, provided it is held in check by the public. Popular authoritarianism and so on.
I have no trust for the public. Juries are only good devices because they require unanimity. If I were accused of a very serious crime and liable to be put to death, and juries simply required majority vote to convict, I would prefer one hereditary juror try me rather than twelve random peers.
by Cekoviu » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:36 pm
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Cappuccina wrote:I see you've added to your sig.
Eh, it doesn't really bother me, tbh. As long as it has no effect on me, I'm gravy.
First they came for the easily triggered liberals, and I did not speak out because I was not an easily triggered liberal
When they came for my gravy there was no-one to speak out for me
Because they'd disposed of all the juice
I think that's how it goes.
by The Parkus Empire » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:58 pm
Cekoviu wrote:The Parkus Empire wrote:I have no trust for the public. Juries are only good devices because they require unanimity. If I were accused of a very serious crime and liable to be put to death, and juries simply required majority vote to convict, I would prefer one hereditary juror try me rather than twelve random peers.
I have no trust for the public simply because it contains people like you. :^)
by Torrocca » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:02 pm
by The Parkus Empire » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:26 pm
by United Muscovite Nations » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:34 pm
Cekoviu wrote:The Parkus Empire wrote:I have no trust for the public. Juries are only good devices because they require unanimity. If I were accused of a very serious crime and liable to be put to death, and juries simply required majority vote to convict, I would prefer one hereditary juror try me rather than twelve random peers.
I have no trust for the public simply because it contains people like you. :^)
by Democratic Communist Federation » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:32 pm
[color=#ff0000]Member,[/color] [url=https://www.nationstates.net/nation=democratic_communist_federation/detail=factbook/id=870177][color=#ff0000][u]Antifa Dialectical metaRealism[/u][/color][/url]
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